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Comment by walrus01 | Hacker News Reader

In my opinion you should not use ANY of the smart features of a "smart" TV. Don't give it your wifi key and don't put it on your LAN.

I have about 400% more trust of Microsoft and Sony than I do of random smart tv manufacturers. I also have a fairly high degree of confidence that the xbox one and PS4 software will remain up to date with security patches, and address critical issues quickly. I have no confidence for TVs.

Microsoft and Sony have teams of lawyers who've drafted the data collection/data sharing/opt-out policies for what their current generation game consoles track and phone home about. I've seen entirely too many reports of "smart" TVs that start reporting your entire viewing habits, and/or displaying unwanted ads.

Use the TV as a dumb display and hook it up to a PS4, Xbox One, and/or home theatre PC.

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> I have about 400% more trust of Microsoft and Sony than I do of random smart tv manufacturers.

It should be noted Sony's TVs are different than their game consoles in what they collect and do. They run a relatively clean version of Android TV except for "Samba TV", which is yet another piece of show-recognizing (known as ACR) analytics. However, you can apparently decline its privacy policy on initial setup and even disable the APK entirely in settings[1]. (Some people also succeeded in ripping it and other bundled video apps out via ADB)

Even given all that, Sony TVs are probably still the tamest smart TVs out there.

> Don't give it your wifi key and don't put it on your LAN.

It entirely depends on manufacturer but I've heard of some actually seeking out open networks for internet access if you don't configure their Wi-Fi. Some people reported an unconnected TV suddenly prompted to update because the neighbour's wifi was unsecured. If you can, I'd set up a specific SSID with no LAN or WAN access just in case.

[1] https://www.consumerreports.org/privacy/how-to-turn-off-smar...

I'm not sure creating a network without no internet access is going to be a long term solution. It's entirely likely that they will create future functionality in these devices to cycle through open networks and networks to which they have credentials for until they find one with internet access.

I guess you could then add some user-important content to the walled-off network, like a basic SMB share. Maybe it will avoid disconnecting from the user-set network if it has user content. But yes, this isn't a very stable solution.

No vendor will use SMB to check for connectivity. They would check for relevant internet paths.

Though I doubt the companies would be ballsy enough to connect to unsecured networks, if that breaches laws in a country that the tv is sold it may have legal ramifications for the company.

Edit: then again my argument is based on logic and risk, not two factors marketing and sales teams consider very often..

HDMI will share its connection through the cable as well. So if you want to use a Chromecast or a BluRay player, etc, then your TV can get internet through that.

If you’re using a chromecast and also trying to keep your tv from phoning home what are you even doing? I mean I guess one fewer place having your info is good, but...

VLC supports casting to a local network Chromecast. It works fantastic.

And Plex!

There's also Cast All The Things (catt)[0], which makes any of the hundreds of websites supported by youtube-dl[1] cast-able.

[0] https://github.com/skorokithakis/catt/

[1] https://ytdl-org.github.io/youtube-dl/supportedsites.html

I hear this speculated a lot; is there any proof of this being done in the wild? Not trying to discredit, I think it's perfectly plausible, I'm just curious if any companies have been caught doing it

Apparently we now need HDMI condoms. Do such things exist?

Most probably there will be a market for HDMI cables with Ethernet specifically disabled - so, IMHO, there'll be sellers for it :)

Pretty useless. The number of devices that actually use Ethernet over HDMI is appromiately zero.

Can you please point to any consumer product that has implemented the Ethernet channel of HDMI?

I’d like to think that would be a CFAA violation, but I’m probably overly optimistic.

Wouldn't that be trying to circumvent security measures, and therefore very illegal in some jurisdictions?

One person's "security measure circumvention" is another person's "security measure".

> It entirely depends on manufacturer but I've heard of some actually seeking out open networks for internet access if you don't configure their Wi-Fi. Some people reported an unconnected TV suddenly prompted to update because the neighbour's wifi was unsecured. If you can, I'd set up a specific SSID with no LAN or WAN access just in case.

They probably will use 5G cellphone service eventually...

Perhaps it is time to wrap our TVs and other consumer electronics in faraday tape.

I can't wait until my microwave tells the manufacturer how often I'm reheating my pizza.

I can see a future where it will be necessary to start opening up new consumer electronics and using small wire cutters, precision screwdrivers and needle nose pliers to physically rip out the Wi-Fi functionality.

Why would this be more likely to happen in the future? Is the future steampunk? Let’s try ripping WiFi chip off present day pcb and see what happens.

The more likely course of action is your microwave refusing to work without internet connection, so that it can verify the DRM on your pizza, make sure you are using only the approved, overpriced pizzas.

Also, it will be sold to the public as "verifying that you are using the fresh and genuine product".

You joke, but we already have this type of mess with Keurig, Nespresso Vertuo and that Silicon Valley juicer whose name I forgot.

Juicero.

I don't joke. I am a frequent reader of /r/shittykickstarters and it's a popular business model amongst these startup hardware products.

Oh... thats where you are going wrong, when reheating pizza it is best to use a pan, although the base may get crispy. The oven works quite well too. Sure they take longer but tastes so much better!

I can't wait for my iot pan and stove respectively tell their manufacturers how often i'm reheating pizzas. Maybe my iot stove fan will get there first. All way after my iot fridge ofc called home to tell me to buy more pizza.

I can totally imagine a future iot fan to have chemical sensors so that it can send a "fingerprint" of the food you're cooking ...

An air fryer works wonderfully to reheat pizza or anything else involving bread. If it's something thick like a sandwich, I'll give it a low power preheat in the microwave first.

Many cars are similar nowadays too, except with cell phone service. It's very aggravating. Even if you don't pay for the 'safety' features and never turn it on. It used to be only on star but now even toyotas have it.

Assuming you don't pay a monthly fee for that, this means that there's a SIM with a free cellular data subscription somewhere in your car? :)

My Sony Smart TV is crap and I will never buy another Sony TV. Yes it runs android. It's slow to respond to input. Sometimes when I'm guessing it needs to page out code it can take 5-30 seconds before u can actually use it. It's crashed in the middle of watching shows and I mean the TV is being used as a dumb tv with input from an external source and suddenly android reboots. It also covers the home screen with ads for shows/games/movies. If possible my next TV will just be a 60inch monitor

Our Samsung smart tv is super slow as well. It seems just smart tvs in general are awful.

Have you tried installing pi-hole on your network?

I recently did it and was stunned at the amount of phoning home from Roku, both telemetry and ads to serve.

After blocking the calls home with PiHole my Roku's performance also improved considerably

My Panasonic runs Firefox os. I use it for Netflix cos every android box I’ve tried is slow and laggy.

I own a Sony smart TV - it’s awful. Far and away the worst piece of consumer electronics I’ve ever owned. It’s ruined Sony for me as a brand. I always take the opportunity to tell people how much I hate it whenever the opportunity comes up.

Life imitates art: https://www.theonion.com/sony-releases-new-stupid-piece-of-s...

I bought a Panasonic 1080P dumb TV a few years ago. Turns on instantly, no apps, no ads, no updates, no tracking. I have no idea what I'll do when it finally dies.

For streaming and playing media from my NAS I use an Nvidia SHIELD TV. It's based on the Tegra X1 so performance is on par with the Nintendo Switch. Really great bit of kit, and of course I can just chuck it out (or repurpose it as an emulator box) if it gets too annoying.

>Even given all that, Sony TVs are probably still the tamest smart TVs out there.

The article seems to say Vizio TVs are better for your privacy than other TVs. The article says Vizio TVs describe ARC in 100 words and people must select accept or decline.

That page you linked to says

>However, you can accept or decline Sony's Bravia privacy policy, as well as one for Samba TV, the ACR technology Sony uses. You have to scroll through the entire Bravia policy before you'll see the options for turning off various data-gathering features, including Sony Smart TV Services, Program Recommendations, Product Improvements, and Advertisements, as well as Samba TV.

This sounds like a harder process.

Vizio was the only company willing to have an employee be interviewed by The Washington Post. Samba didn't even reply to their emails.

FTC Vizio settlement: https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2017/02/vizio...

Vizio is doing those things because the FTC is making them. (See @sologoub's comment) Before that they didn't even ask or tell you about it.

I doubt they're doing the interview because the FTC made them.

I was referring to the disclosure, simple privacy policy, and option to decline. I'm fairly certain the interview is one of many PR moves to restore their reputation.

Why do you trust Microsoft more? They have the most egregious and base level of data collection compared to any other company. Their collection from the OS is pervasive and deep. The inability to truly disable Cortana is evidence that we don't own our purchased software anymore, merely borrow it from the big tech companies.

In terms of undermining user ownership, MS has done more than most with help from Apple. I can get a different webmail provider and use a different search engine. Changing operating systems to Linux from one that actively fights you to run your computer for you is something else entirely.

I should clarify that I do not trust Microsoft more in terms of data collection, rather that security patches will be automatically pushed to an Xbox one. And that it has a relatively low likelihood of becoming part of a botnet, or compromised by a persistent form of Trojan.

Good luck getting a software update for a four-year-old smart TV running some obsolete version of Android. Or WebOS.

Xbox 360s are 12+ years old now and are still generally considered something that is safe to have on your home network, and not vulnerable to any known in the wild remote code execution.

Xbox one or PlayStation 4 has considerably lower chances of becoming a malicious, virus-infected device on my home network.

Yeah I can agree with that. Samsung's apps on the older tvs need updating and in my experience they do not deliver the firmware updates they promise might happen at sale.

I trust them in the sense that they're going to _mostly_ keep the data they steal to themselves and are capable of doing so.

>I have about 400% more trust of Microsoft and Sony than I do of random smart tv manufacturers

This is a really weak trust based argument. Sony put rootkits on cds (different division of sony, but still). MS has been fighting their users forever now. Ultimately, none of these trust based arguments work. If you care about privacy, use kodi, new pipe etc. Don't try to pick overlords. That's a losing battle.

I trust them to keep their products relatively secure from hackers, not to not use my data.

When i got my samsung smart tv 4 years ago i actually read the EULA and was so disgusted i refused to agree. It lives its life as a computer monitor, and a buggy one at that. I doubt there is a way to update the firmware without agreeing. Moral of the story: dont buy smart TVs.

If you want a TV, is there any alternative? We got a new TV last year and I (joe shmoe average user) didn't see any that weren't smart.

Buy the best TV that fits your needs. Do not configure the Smart TV features at all. If it requires Internet access for initial configuration, setup your phone as a hotspot with a temporary password. Once configured, change your phone hotspot password and disable it.

I have many Smart TVs, all working great as dumb monitors for my AppleTVs. I wouldn’t change a thing.

Anecdotal: was setting up some Hisense TVs at work the other day and the unit came up with a message that "all Network features" would be disabled if you declined the EULA.

Immediately thought "works for me".

I wonder if any other manufacturer offers that choice.

Edit: commercial signage panels are about as close as you get to dumb TVs these days. Rarely include any smart features, can get in quite large sizes. Not OLED or anything but if you just want a decent display...

FWIW - I discovered recently that Hisense is actually owned by the Chinese state government, if that kind of thing matters to you.

I might have to get a projector

There are some still out there (in Australia - YMMV). I just bought this on Wednesday: http://www.bauhn.com.au/product-listing/58-4k-ultra-hd-tv-AT...

Aldi has very very questionable quality though. I've had multiple DOAs, and multiple of their things die within months.

They're good with warranty returns, but usually can't give you a replacement product due to how they do batch/bulk sales and don't keep recurring stock, so you generally end up with a refund and have to start shopping around again for an equivalent product.

NEC sell 4K resolution large displays on their store [1] (not affiliated but someone in a HN topic noted them). Should be said that while they appear to not feature smart TV capabilities (they're intended more for retail/enterprise use) they lack HDR local dimming which is something to consider.

As for not connecting smart TVs to Wi-Fi I read in a recent HN comment [2] that theirs connected without consent automatically to the first available unsecured Wi-Fi it found, sometime later. Seems some TVs are being extra sneaky with this.

[1] https://www.necdisplay.com/category?category=displays

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21010777

In Europe I buy dumb panels from https://www.swedx.se/index.php?cPath=133

They are mainly aimed corporate buyers, I have one 42 inch TV and one small video wall (4x42 inch) from them.

I bought a cheap TV from Argos, a UK catalogue store. No smart features. Still working well after a year.

There is, but since they're not able to sell your data they cost a lot. I bought a 55" LG OLED 1080p commercial signage display for $5000. The power and control hardware is in a separate box so the display panel is just 6 mm thick, and it has no "smart TV" features at all, just basic firmware for configuration.

https://www.lg.com/us/business/oled-displays/lg-55EJ5E

Were you not able to return it?

I have a cheap, Chinese make 'smart' TV... (Le Eco).. e the company has gone under quite some time ago... It runs in it's own vlan with only access to the DNS (pihole).

It's consistently the top blocked client on my home network! Ott. Nielsenccdata.tv

>PS4, Xbox One

which are almost certainly also tracking everything.

In general i agree with your advice, and would rather keep smart TVs off my network. but if your goal is to not be tracked, plugging in an additional piece of hardware from another big tech co isn't going to accomplish that goal.

Agreed. My Samsung TV is not connected to Ethernet/WiFi and I have a quadcore Pentium NUC as a 4k HTPC for interacting with it. I have a full control of what I run on NUC (Ubuntu + Kodi) and TV is just a display.

My Marantz is connected to Internet though (used for AirPlay) as it needs updates to its firmware, so there might be some audiophile listening...

Marantz doesn’t report home if you disable reports. I also have never upgraded my marantz receivers

Pretty sure my 1970’s Sansui isn’t phoning home!

> I have [...] trust of Microsoft and Sony

Stop trusting companies. That's what got us in today's horror show of privacy invasion. Verify what you get and buy accordingly. Trust in corporations is something that's not required and is actively detrimental to society as a whole.

I trust cableco providers even less than random smartTV manufacturers.

And those TV boxes are 2-way obligate devices...

Some will still try to connect to any open wifi and phone home.

I’ve seen that behavior only on the one model that I was analyzing. Still, I assume it’s industry wide and even applicable to every/any IOT device.

I have an LG smart TV I got when I got an LG G5. I do exactly this. I dont connect it to the internet. I did at first but then I changed the wifi password / reset the damn thing. It is just a dumb TV for my MiBox (Android TV) which I prefer since if that component dies I can replace it. Though I am likely going to buy an Apple TV instead in the future if I see any decent offers on one.

> Microsoft and Sony have teams of lawyers who've drafted the data collection/data sharing/opt-out policies for what their current generation game consoles track and phone home about.

Those lawyers are looking out for MS and Sony, not you. Their job is to make sure everything is legal, not ethical.

Roku scares me when I'm watching movies on my Rapsberry Pi. They are .mp4 files. I'm not using their software at all... and about 2 minutes in I get a pop-up "You can view this move elsewhere at XYZ." How do they know what movie I'm watching? They are analyzing the feed. Scary.

By recording and matching soundbites on their servers, similar to what the app Shazam does.

I can't fathom what possible conversion rate that ad would have.

Even assuming the underlying premise is something like "we suspect this is pirated and here's a legitimate option", you're suggesting I leave a task I'm in the middle of... to perform the same task elsewhere?

I could see if they had the set turn on to a Wii-style menu and they had a box that said "Since you enjoyed watching Show XYZ, you may enjoy Service EFG, featuring XYZ and more", that could possibly convert, but the timing there is completely tone-deaf.

I would also never connect smart TV to the internet. Years ago we purchased dumb plasma TV and set up a Linux box on older PC. The main part is Kodi (XBMC) which has addons for various online services + we have Tvheadend on another box for satelite and DVB-T2 recording. All two DVB-T2 muxes we are receiving are also sent multicast on the LAN using dvblast. Kodi can be controlled via an app on the smartphone or it's web interface. This has been working for years, some maintenance was needed but I am happy with it and don't plan changing it. This TV box is also a Kubernetes worker node for light workloads :D but that's another story.

I concur on leveraging console's(Xbox One/PS4) for smart TV functions due to better security and hardware; But the power consumption in using console as smartTV equivalent should be higher.

Xbox One X has excellent power efficiency, it is my preferred way to gaming as I'm extremely conscious about the power consumption of my devices; but Smart TVs do consume lesser power for what they do.

LG and Samsung both use Linux for their Smart OS and there are a few Android TVs.

Also, fun fact, my cable boxes from Verizon also run Linux :P

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