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Comment by eric_b | Hacker News Reader

Drug overdoses and suicides are probably two sides of the same coin. The feeling of "despair" and "hopelessness" that young people often speak of are surely exacerbating things and causing some of these deaths.

And while I can empathize, having been the demographic in question until last year, and having experienced exactly those feelings; I think despair and hopelessness is not so much "real" as it is "manufactured".

The media of 2019 is partly to blame. I'm not talking about a specific publication, but the state of "journalism" in general. It's doom and gloom, 24x7 piped to our eyeballs from dozens of sources. Sensationalism and outrage are the goals, and they've gotten very very good at it.

Smartphones and social media are another part of the issue. Zombie scrolling through instagram looking at fake lives and photoshopped images, all the while yearning for the things those people have. Or getting worked up over some post on Facebook or some hot take on Twitter.

I quit reading media, and eliminated all social media from my life, and I've never been happier. I don't feel that sense of dread and despair I used to. I have more time to create, more time to exercise, and I sleep better at night.

Things are actually amazing in 2019 if you think about it. There are endless possibilities for people who want to get out and actually do something.

View on HN

IDK, I'm pretty depressed about the environment, China, ICE, and private oligarchies. Sure 2019 is better that the Middle Ages, but let's be honest. Things are not "actually amazing".

Well, it’s all relative. Do you have a time period in mind that you would want to live instead of now?

Late 80's and early 90's as a teenager? Look, you can visit live gigs of Nirvana, Soundgarden, Shotgun Messiah, Bad Religion and such, make some modest money and buy a couple of SF properties? What's not to like about that?

Maybe we should talk about Rawl’s veil of ignorance [1]. If you did not know where you would be born or in what socio-economic class, what time period would you want to live in? Because it’s clear to me living in a 3rd world country (and, formerly, America), that the best time to be alive is now, in aggregate. If you could decide, maybe it would be great to be a king in the Middle Ages, or whatever. But if you didn’t have that choice and instead you randomly became someone, I think most people would agree that today is the best it’s ever been. Empirical statistics back this up as well.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil_of_ignorance

idk man? I explicitly specified the country and time frame? From what I know, if we talk about USA in 1985-1990 (and not USSR in 1935), there were no genocide, no mass poverty or concentration camps. Just education and housing were affordable and music was good.

You had a good chance of getting almost any college degree, good job and ride the happy 90's without student debt and paying off your mortgage for a property that will increase in price at least x2 next decade.

Don't you see? This is what I'm talking about. What does China have to do with you? How does ICE affect your day to day? Sure there are bad things in the world, but unless you're willing to spend your time and resources fighting them, getting involved at a meaningful level, you are better off focusing on other things. Things you can control.

"How does ICE affect your day to day?"

I'm a child of immigrants and am in n immigrant family! ICE is terrifying whenever we travel, whenever my family tries to advocate that they deserve to stay with each other, etc.

I worry every day if I can raise my two younger siblings by myself should my parents ever be deported!

Are your parents in the US illegally?

Nobody "deserves" to stay in another country unless they are there legally.

Legal USA residents and citizens have been detained for months by ICE, JSYK. Believing your legal status protects you from having your rights stripped is leaving us all vulnerable.

Do you have a source for that?

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/08/01/540903038...

I think people have a right to exist. If they are seeking asylum and they are not a threat, I think we should help each other out. Turning your backs on them because you don't like their race/religion goes against what America was supposed to be about. If we deport everyone who isn't legal knowing they'll either be killed or separated from their families, that speaks volumes about our country's morals and compassion. Deporting people because they don't "deserve" to be here is an extremely elitist attitude.

I don't think it has anything to do with race or religion. There's not a country in the world with open borders. Most first world countries are actually harder to get into than the US.

It's odd to me that people started worrying about ICE en mass when Trump became president. It's an organization that has existed since 2003. In addition nearly every country in the world has similar or more stringent policies. Yet no one talks about that and they act as if ICE is unique in some capacity. It's hard to see that as anything other than politically motivated or misguided by media propaganda.

People have a right to exist in their own countries.

It would be unsustainable to let in everybody who wants to move to another country. That's why quotas, background checks, etc exist.

Entering a country illegally knowing that it will mean you'll be splitting your family in half speaks volumes about the morals and compassion of the person who does that.

> ICE is terrifying whenever we travel

As a child of immigrants and proud American, I’m not sure “terrifying” is a fair response. It’s certainly uncomfortable. But it shouldn’t be enough to push one (here legally) into depression to the point of suicide or drug use.

"I'm not sure it's fair that you're terrified."

This is probably the darkest distillation of 2019 neoliberal energy I've heard across many platforms.

"That shouldn't push one into depression to the point of suicide or drug use."

Please spend some effort in 2020 developing empathy for other humans.

It's truly deplorable what ICE is doing. Many people fret about what ICE is doing (including myself at times) to a degree that is absolutely debilitating. I think the point here — though OP has stated it in a deeply awkward and arguably insensitive manner — is that it is better to relieve oneself of crippling worry for things outside of their control, even if they are profoundly harmful. That is not to say that one should relieve oneself of profound and deep concern and compassion for those affected; and one, where is possible, should do all that they can to help in an authentic manner. A preponderance of crippling worry, however, seems to me to cause either (a) inaction due to despair (which in some cases may be as harmful as ignorance) (b) complete support of a harmful situation in question (e.g. the alt-right supporting profoundly cruel anti-immigration policies).

I agree with this, but I’m pointing out the examples provided are more than a lack of tact- it’s choosing disengagement and by disengaging assuming no one else has legitimate worries or lives a life different than them. It’s an apathy that’s the same side of the worry coin.

Agreed.

Obviously I was being rhetorical. I was speaking in strong certainties to elicit a response. Obviously in your case ICE is a concern. For 99% of the people who are paralyzed by thinking about it - they would be better served focusing on getting back to their life. (And voting for people who MIGHT do something about it)

For what it's worth, my circumstances agree with you. I've become much less stressed out on the day to day by ungluing my eyes from newsmedia.

Are your parents here with legal status? My parents have been legal permanent residents for half a century. Their only worry over the years has been if they were ever detained "back home" would they be able to somehow get back to the United States. If your parents have legal status, not sure why ICE would be relevant to their lives or yours.

Because time and time ICE has shown it has a remarkable ability to define “legal status” as it sees fit. Consider the fake college ICE[0] used to arrest and deport immigrants; they were granted Student Visas and believed they were here legally. What would your advice be to them?

Your position seems to start from an assumption that these institutions are acting in good faith, and so it’s illogical to decry an institution if it doesn’t directly impact you. I pray you look at the gamut of evidence available that shows this simply isn’t the case.

[0] https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.metrotimes.com/news-hits/ar...

Non-AMP link: https://www.metrotimes.com/news-hits/archives/2019/11/27/mor...

This must be one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard of.

Imagine the cost of setting all that up, and going through the process with each student to get their visas. Only to tell them on arrival they’ve been tricked.

What exactly were they trying to accomplish with that?

> "Their true intent could not be clearer," Assistant U.S. Attorney Brandon Helms wrote in a sentencing memo earlier this month. "While 'enrolled' at the University, one hundred percent of the foreign citizen students never spent a single second in a classroom. If it were truly about obtaining an education, the University would not have been able to attract anyone, because it had no teachers, classes, or educational services."

ICE has captured and held nearly 1500 American citizens for varying durations, one man for nearly 1300 days. That's life ruining.

Source?

Still working on the first part, but here's a source for the second: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/08/01/540903038...

Edit: This appears further down that article:

> "Those data show that from 2007 through July of last year, 693 U.S. citizens were held in local jails on federal detainers — in other words, at the request of immigration officials. And 818 more Americans were held in immigration detention centers during that same time frame, according to data obtained through a separate FOIA request by Northwestern University professor Jacqueline Stevens and analyzed by NPR."

693 + 818 = 1,511

From 2007 through 2017. 1511 people, or 151 person per year. And they were just detained, not shot dead or sent to gulags forever.

Now, honest question, no sarcasm.

~100 people die EACH DAY in car crashes in USA. 25 people die annually due to lightning strikes.

Is there any chance to not being depressed with all of that stats? I mean, if 150 detentions per year in nation of 327 million people (0.000045%) make you depressed and terrified, what are your chance to feel yourself content and happy?

The difference is that one of those is the result of accidents and natural phenomenon, the other is the result of a government secret police detaining people indefinitely and going against the founding principles of this country.

Those are the numbers they were willing to give up, too. I assume you don't see the problem with the government choosing to just pull American citizens off the street?

> And they were just detained, not shot dead or sent to gulags forever.

They might've just lost their jobs, ended up late on rent, or going without medicine, but they were "only just detained."

> Is there any chance to not being depressed with all of that stats?

These are deaths of effectively random chance, not of systematic persecution riding on the back of nationalism waving a fasces. Each one of these detentions is a policy failure and, as we live in at least nominally Democracy, there is culpability on every American unless they take any action. This weight is what bears down on people, but it seems that you are, rather worryingly, insulated or alienated from this violence.

> what are your chance to feel yourself content and happy?

Why are so eager to change this to a subjective matter when this directly deals with objective violence?

>They might've just lost their jobs, ended up late on rent, or going without medicine, but they were "only just detained."

Yes, and again, how many people default on their student debts each year? Probably x100 times more? And the outcome is more or less the same? And still ICE is the problem?

Honestly, I just don't understand the priorities here, and again, zero sarcasm. Student debt is 1.4 TRILLION dollars, if you dont repay it you end up late on rent, go without medicine, have your wage garnished, but let's revolt around 151 people each year being detained for some time.

Honestly, if I was looking for systematic persecution, I would rather look at student debt crisis, if I correctly understand what "systematic" and "policy failure" means. (English is my second language).

EDIT: "7.5 million student loan borrowers in default and nearly 2 million others seriously behind on their payments", source NYT. Surely 1511 beat 7 500 000 as "systematic" and "policy failure".

EDIT2: And if we speak frankly, "Young people in U.S. dying at high rates" is the reason their crippling 1.4T debt or their crippling fear of being detained by ICE?

Your argument essentially boils down to whataboutism. That we can't be concerned about an agency abusing it's power and reach to lock up American citizens because there are other issues to care about.

I'm not sure we should ignore flagrant disregard for the law just because more people die in car accidents but that's just me.

I think my argument boils down to realism.

In a country of 300M people, you will never, ever get rid of some injustice and tragedy. You will always have some rapes, some orphans, people wrongfully jailed, stuff like that. That's just a harsh truth of human existence and I accept it as a mere mortal.

But let's be concerned about an agency abusing it's power and harming 151 people per year. Student loan industry makes millions of people miserable each year, and contribute to "young people in US dying at high rates", but since it's all within the law and said industry not abusing it's power at all, we can just disregard it.

Honestly, it's just a crazy talk to me. Let's abolish ICE and death rate for young adults in US will improve instantly, right? Or maybe let's fix that 1.5T of debt which literally kills mostly young adults?

>we live in at least nominally Democracy, there is culpability on every American unless they take any action. This weight is what bears down on people, but it seems that you are, rather worryingly, insulated or alienated from this violence.

Constantly exposing yourself to and decidedly feeling immense personal guilt for all the violence perpetrated in a country of 300+ million and/or a world of 7+ billion is hopelessly naive and self sabotaging, unless you fancy yourself a God who is out to save the world.

>when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you. -Nietzsche

>There is only one way to happiness and that is to cease worrying about things which are beyond the power of our will. -Epictetus

Hmmmm, I believe I "am" making some meaningful difference. Even if it's just yelling at the fucked up shit. I will not go quietly into the night.

Then it seems you'll stay in this depressed state for a while longer. I agree 100% with what OP said, having experienced the benefits for myself. I never actually 'quit fb' or whatever, I just lost interest after realizing how constantly bombarded I am with stuff that has absolutely no relevance to my _actual_ life.

I wish you all the best and brighter days in the future.

EDIT: oh, btw your comment resonated with me because of the 'scream into the night' thing. That's also how I felt when I was a teenager who was into punkrock. There's this sense that your suffering somehow accomplishes a sort of martyrdom. But it really doesn't and it only helps to further one's negative thoughts.

Hey man, did you hear Rage Against the Machine is making a comeback?

Just because I'm depressed about these things doesn't mean I'm depressed. Or at least not usually. Life's weird.

I don't even know how to respond to this. Do you really believe "yelling at the fucked up shit" will do anything positive? There is no change without actual action. If anything whining in to the wind will just exhaust and alienate people.

Charismatic yelling is empowering, otherwise it's just whining I suppose.

By that logic if you lived in a nice countyside vila in Poland during WW2 you should not have been worried at all about what was going on around you.

It matters so much how we define the world for ourselves. I can't make much difference in the world if I define the world as all of humanity. If I change my perspective and see my world as my family, friends, coworkers, and community I can suddenly see so many incredible opportunities to make a difference.

Look around and find the things that you can pick up and improve.

Pick one big problem to care about, then commit to at least weekly action. Leave the other problems to other people.

Personally, I only have 3 weekday-hours outside of work/sleep/cooking, plus weekends. Half is spent socializing or relaxing, the other half I channel environmental concerns into volunteering in science activism (education, campaigning, networking, and donating to PACs).

Outside of climate and science, I don't really follow other news above local politics. My reps are aligned with me on Trump. China/Hong Kong, same, plus I already boycott Chinese goods. Staying current on all is depressing... but individually acting on one thing is meaningful and motivating.

> the environment, China, ICE, and private oligarchies

This is just a list of current media narratives.

The solution is to stop letting the media do your thinking for you and instead find something productive and fulfilling to do with your time and attention.

> The solution is to stop letting the media do your thinking for you and find something productive to do with your time and attention.

While your response is incredibly callous and privileged, it's beautifully on point in regards to the feeling of many people: you're so incredibly alienated from the political process, why not go do something _productive_ because you better commodify every waking moment.

I agree this attitude does come from privilege, but so what? If someone is fortunate enough to enjoy the privilege of not having to burden themselves with worry about things they can't control, why should they?

Also, there are many ways to improve the world and human society outside of the political process. If more people did what GP did and focused on their own personal well being and strengthening local/community/familial ties outside and apart of any political motivations, I think our culture and society would be the better for it.

How do you keep in touch with people, then? I've also cut out social media and started spending more time outside and around cities. And sure, I don't encounter much frustration, outrage, or extreme dysphoria anymore. I also have lots of time to do and see exciting and fulfilling things, which I enjoy.

But I can't share the experiences or talk to anyone about them. It seems like there's no way to meet people without social media, bevause a quick introduction or "hello" by someone outside of a pre-approved friends list is universally treated as an aggressive imposition these days, even in group settings where people ostensibly share interests. And none of my friends from when I had Facebook / etc were willing to stay in touch through other means.

So this is obviously very anecdotal, but I still deal with crippling loneliness and will probably join the cohort that this study is looking at soon, since it's clear that there is no hope for any of this to change in the near future. But I can hardly blame other people or the media for "manufacturing" those feelings, so I'm not convinced that avoiding toxic screen time is going to be a workable solution for many people.

Well, I did most of my "meeting people" before I turned 30, when you have school and work pools to pull from. Now that I'm in my 30s I mostly just communicate with people I already know (though that is not strictly true, as I continue to meet new people all the time)

I use text messages, phone calls and emails primarily. People I continue to keep in touch with are neighbors, family, high school buddies, college buddies, co-workers etc. And I meet new people at the gym, in local music meet ups, etc.

I dunno where you live or who you're interacting with, but I have not had the experience you speak of.

Yeah - that's what I tend to hear from almost everyone. "I did all of my meeting people years ago."

Well, I'm happy that that worked for you.

I don't remember having met someone meaningful in my life over social media only. Unless you count instant messaging.

Yes, the usual places are school, university and work. Church and other similar voluntary-non-religious activities are great too. I also used to attend open source conferences regulary and have several meaningful friends from those conferences, and we keep in touch mainly through instant messaging, not through facebook or instagram. Does that count?

Go to clubs, do drugs, etc. i’ve met tons of people at festivals or clubs or whatever. Another option is to talk to homeless people, almost all of them love talking to people. Being treated like trash constantly creates a deep sense of isolation. Moreover, talking to homeless people is really interesting, I’ve learned a lot from them. Some of the most memorable and impactful conversations I’ve ever had has been with the homeless. Also, volunteering or even just hanging out at shelters has been very interesting.

I've found that most people are friendly enough to engage in light conversation. I agree that going any deeper than that has become much more difficult due to people becoming used to the barriers social media provides. In my experience though, I have to be willing to be authentic, and in a way vulnerable, before anybody else will open up. That is the only way to create real relationships IMO.

> and will probably join the cohort that this study is looking at soon

I can't claim to understand you fully and I hope to never be where you are but I have one true friend in this life. The kind that I'd take a bullet for. I'm 45.

In your case I'd join a meetup. Something you are interested in. Anything you may even be remotely interested in. If you can't find one. Start one. There may be another "you" out there too.

The fact you're here says you're a tech in some fashion so I'd bet there are meetups somewhere you could go nearby.

I am not sure this message comes across well (and I apologise if it's preachy) but I read your message and thought I had to say something quickly.

Try a meetup. You might just find that someone else at that meetup is the same.

I hope to never find out you're one of these statistics.

I've tried a lot of meetups ranging from things like board games to hiking to organized sports, and while they're nice ways to find activities, in my experience most people show up in groups and it is vanishingly rare to see the same people more than a few times.

Volunteering and local community events seem more promising, but they have the same general issue: at least in the past few years that I've been attending them in search of community, you rarely see the same people more than once or twice.

Thanks for taking the time to offer advice, though.

Then start your own meetup for people that just want to chat :) No agenda, just chatting to each other.

I bet you'll be fighting them off... the thought that you would be oversubscribed is both great and slightly depressing at the same time.

Ask at a local bar on a Tuesday night (or any other quiet night) if they can keep a section aside for you. They will jump at the chance of a few more patrons.

Make it cheap, perhaps £1. Something that shows commitment but won't put people off. Make it a donation of £1 to your local Samaritans instead.

I'll get off my soapbox now but this idea just jumped into my head :)

I like this idea.

I'll pitch mine in--if you're actually completely un-attached, move! Find a city known for being a more inviting place. Move there. Attend church. Get a remote job, spend your time out in public. Become a regular at some places (coffee shop, gym, etc.). Make friends with the people who work there. In general, invest in people by doing genuinely nice things for them. Serve others, and be honest about how you feel when it's appropriate.

I have a wife and 4 kids and I get lonely surprisingly often. Having lots of ways to combat the low feelings is important. I just happen to live in a pretty friendly place (Jacksonville, FL), which also helps.

Wish ya the best!

If you're in the PNW, I'd hang out with you.

Thank you! Unfortunately I'm not, though - I gave up on the PNW in despair a few months ago, and I'm just wandering now. At least the backcountry of the US is a pretty place to wait for death.

I facilitate local friendships. I organize group events, like indoor climbing, board games, group dinners, movies, etc.

If you get people bringing friends of friends, you can get a larger group of people to draw on and it becomes lower effort and "whoever wants to come can join" and there's lower pressure on everyone.

My girlfriend has movie watching nights / DnD nights over Discord to keep up with her friends from out-of-state. I've just accepted that the remote friends I really care about can keep in touch via email / text, and the others I can handle losing.

Personally, I think the idea of completely cutting off from social media isn't something that most people can (or even should) do. Rather, it's important to moderate your interaction with it.

For example, while I've excised most social media from my life, I find Reddit to be generally positive so I keep it. Facebook, Twitter, etc. not so much, so I hardly go there. Now, am I missing out on things? Of course, but I've decided that, for me, those things aren't important enough to deal with the rest of what comes with them (privacy concerns wrt Facebook, for example).

I also forbid social media on my phone - which can go a long way to breaking cycle of swiping/scrolling. I generally forbid myself from going on Reddit while at work, restricting myself to only Hacker News.

For you, that calculus may be different. Maybe most of your friend group interacts via Facebook and that's what they're most comfortable with. In your case, it may be best to stick with Facebook to keep your social circle intact. You just have to moderate your usage. For example, maybe all you really need is Facebook Messenger, so you never actually have to go on Facebook proper. Avoid the parts that drag you down while keeping the parts that maintain your sanity. Maybe only have messenger on your phone so you're not tempted to go to the Facebook site.

It's not easy, which is why a lot of people (myself included) choose to simply throw them away; it's not worth the trouble for us, but it may be for you.

>Personally, I think the idea of completely cutting off from social media isn't something that most people can (or even should) do

Incoming anecdotes...

I'm not so sure. I think the only solution is total cut-off.

Remember that the goal of social media is to get you hopelessly addicted and to give away as much information as possible so that THEY can make vast sums of money off your content. They employ thousands of brilliant minds who's sole job is to break down your will power with dark patterns and deep psychological tricks to keep you clicking and scrolling.

No one posts their fuckups, or their bad side, or the boring stuff like doing the ironing or cutting the grass or being stuck in traffic: the normal, everyday things. All you see is edited highlights.

You only see aspirational things that most people will never achieve. That they haven't even achieved.

In fact, I know a guy, a model, who has shunned social media now but still has friends on there who constantly lie and do stuff like buy a bunch of Calvin Klein clothes and pay for their own photoshoot with them wearing it saying things like "Big thanks to Calvin Klein for the gear" etc.

It's utter bullshit from one end to the other.

It's an addiction we have as a nation and the cure is abstinence.

Edit: used the word "stuff" a bit much :)

Agreed. Repeating your anecdotal disclaimer, I too have completely severed from social media (and almost all "infotainment" sites, such as Reddit) and have only been the happier for it.

Obviously this depends wildly on each person's individual situation, but I haven't found that it seriously affects the relationships I care about. I no longer know the minor details about the lives of acquaintances from college or high school, but so what?

Maybe you could find some local groups that do things. My city their are walking groups, motorcycle riding groups, knitting/quilting groups, bowling teams, various other sports teams. There are countless volunteer options as well. I took up motorcycle riding this year and you meet people on the road at stops as you ride. It is very rewarding and there is a huge sense of comradery. Can I ask where about in the world are you located?

That's funny, I also took up motorcycling this year, and it does seem like the sort of people who frequent forests and camping areas are more friendly and outgoing than I'm used to. But it seems like a lot of that friendliness stems from the comfortable certainty that you'll never see each other again - it feels more like fleeting empathy than comradery. I appreciate having met most of the people who I see on the road, but it doesn't seem like a good way to make friends; I've never seen any of them a second time. I'm glad that it's working out for you, though.

The best I can do for location is, "somewhere in the USA". It's gotten so bad that I recently gave up hope of ever finding a sense of acceptance or belonging, so I gave up on city life to explore national parks and forests. I might emigrate eventually, but I'm honestly hoping that I'll just die before I have to worry about a job or career again, and backcountry exploring is dangerous enough that I might get lucky. It's not that I think that running away from my problems will do anything to fix them, but given how impossible it is to meet people in cities, I figure that this is a more peaceful and calm way to wait for the same lonely death.

>How do you keep in touch with people, then?

I use Instagram. My entire feed is just my friends. No celebrities or corporations or anything. Also, nobody reposts political garbage, even though the very same people do on Facebook all the time. And I've yet to see a sponsored story. It's just my friends showing off what they're up to.

> I think despair and hopelessness is not so much "real" as it is "manufactured".

When I was younger, we had Reagan and Bush and Clinton with his BJ and lying about it, and then the war in Iraq, which all had some low points...

But now there's a guy trying to cheat to win the next election, who basically believes he's above the law, and half the country is lining up behind him.

That's our democracy at stake. I feel quite a sense of despair, and I'm old enough to have seen a lot of back-and-forth in politics.

But despair can't lead to inaction. I've been doing more than I ever have to try and make a difference.

Most of the stuff I see on tv is nonsense. Missing person 2,000 miles away. The weather in Canada. Police shootout 1,000 miles away. None of this stuff has any bearing on my life at all. I just watch c-span now.

C-SPAN is great. I also really enjoy PBS Newshour. It's so strikingly different from the other mainstream news that is feels comforting and fresh.

Social media and sensationalized news is definitely not helping. But I think the bigger issue is lack of community and close social bonds.

Americans have significantly fewer close friends than previous generations[1]. They're much less likely to know their next-door neighbors[2]. Church attendance (which has traditionally been a major source of social capital) is way down, especially among young people[3]. Membership in civic organizations like the Masons and League of Women Voters has virtually disappeared among young people[4]. Adult sports leagues have sharply declining participation[5]. Even family reunions are disappearing[6].

These trends all started in the 1980s, well before social media and clickbait headlines. Robert Putnam published Bowling Alone in 2000. In a lot of ways I think modern Internet culture is a reaction, not a cause, of our social atomization and anomie. People are lonely and searching for human interaction in any form, even if it's just culture war bickering with strangers on the web.

Of course the problem is its a poor substitution for real-life relationships. Online interaction offers a temporarily relief of loneliness without conferring any of the long-term mental health benefits of actual social interaction.

[1] https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=550938... [2] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/daily-digit-americans-dont-kn... [3] https://www.pewforum.org/2019/10/17/in-u-s-decline-of-christ... [4] https://prospect.org/infrastructure/strange-disappearance-ci... [5] https://www.athleticbusiness.com/Recreation/slow-pitch-softb... [6] https://www.wyso.org/post/family-reunions-tradition-decline

This all strikes me as pretty compelling. Unfortunately, I struggle to identify an elegant solution. It seems to be a global phenomenon. https://www.scmp.com/tech/article/2150720/asias-lonely-youth...

> There are endless possibilities for people who want to get out and actually do something.

Yes, there are. Today. But I believe some of the doom and gloom stems from real concern over what will be here when they are older, when children and grandchildren are older. For us who are already old, we may see some change in our lives. For people who are 20 today, the worst case scenarios over the next 50 years are quite bad. Hopefully the world doesn't go to the worst case scenarios. I would love it if all predictions are wrong, and the world continues improving. But I can understand the anxiety over looking out over 80 years of a unknown personal future.

Eh, the threat of global nuclear war annihilating humanity hung over everyone since the 50's, though it never came to pass, and worrying about it was useless.

Worrying about our future is not useless. As people worry about things, and as they grow older and become our leaders in government and business, they can push to improve our world. We didn't get to where we are today by people just relaxing and not worrying. Thinking about the future, and worrying about problems, is what drives us to a better place.

Some anxiety, therefore, is a good thing. But when there is too much, it overwhelms people, it is a real problem.

I find the mental model of "circle of concern vs. circle of control" immensely helpful.

The only appropriate things to worry about are things within your circle of control. Otherwise, let it go.

I agree. But people draw that circle far more narrowly than they have to. Clearly you have control over your direct life, but even looking at larger, broader issues... You can vote. You can talk to people about problems and solutions. You can talk to your local and congressional leaders about wide-ranging problems. You can be an activist. You can write about the concerns and have your articles read worldwide thanks to the internet.

There is so much you can do about so many things... hence the phrase, "If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem."

Draw that "circle of control" widely in your life, and you'll be amazed how much change you can invoke in your world.

The worst case scenario has always been quite bad. So what. In the 14th century the Black Plague killed half the population of Europe. But people didn't stop having children.

I quit media and social media and almost don't use my phone anymore. It worked for a while but after a job change and a move I feel more isolated than I ever have. The existential dread of how the world is doesn't help. I feel hopeless and terrible and it's effecting the relationships I do have and my work. I'm seeing a therapist and started working out and cooking for myself more and it seems to just be getting worse.

The best advice one can possibly give is to start attending a regularly scheduled event that involves a lot of people.

Whether that is season tickets to a sporting event, attending church, a weekly tech meetup, volunteering on a regular schedule, a weekly open mic night, going to the same bar that has your favorite team playing, frequently attending art openings in town etc, all that matters is that people are partly there to socialize and it happens with the same group of people regularly.

Then, once you start going and seeing a few people more frequently, often you will naturally exchange phone numbers and/or get invited to another event and friendship will blossom.

And on that, seriously pay attention to your appearance. This means nice fitting clean clothing and shoes etc. Really make an effort to look good. Nothing fancy or expensive, just don't look like you just rolled out of bed. Even if you aren't in great shape, simply looking well put together helps 1000% in meeting new people.

Keep an open mind and avoid pushing your beliefs on others.

Don't give up my friend, there are so maybe people who feel just the same way that would love to hang out with you and become friends.

Thank you. That's pretty good advice. I recently got a small warehouse space to use as an art studio and I've been thinking about starting a community gardening meetup or maybe one related to neighborhood mesh networking in the space. Maybe both. I also reached out to a local homelessness charity to see about volunteer work.

I've struggled with depression my entire adult life. This current one is familiar to one of my worst periods. The hardest part is the loss of interest in anything. I need to get out and see people and maintain routine which is hard when everything feels like I'm watching a black and white live stream of my life.

One foot in front of the other and hopefully I'll get myself back.

> The best advice one can possibly give is to start attending a regularly scheduled event that involves a lot of people.

Every Sunday (or Friday or ..)

I don't know what you mean by this? Are you suggesting church? Not that I'm a militant atheist anymore or anything, but it's a weird way to try to bring that up and an even weirder forum.

We've seen that suicide rates in very poor countries tend to be quite a bit lower. This leads some, my self included, to hypothesize that it is the cliff that one can fall off of in society that causes more of these issues.

In the US, a person can go from making an upper middle class salary to barely being able to feed and house themselves in less than a year.

If a person has a criminal record(even a misdemeanor) and no college degree, their odds of any type of success plummet.

With high divorce rates and custody issues, many people find themselves unable to regroup social and spend the rest of their lives essentially alone.

As we have a more and more polarized society of winners and losers, we will see drug use and suicide continue to increase as people lose hope for improving their situation or cannot cope with significant, and likely permanent, regressions in their quality of life.

This downturn is a uniquely US situation vs stable nations that are both poor and rich. I my opinion it is basically the effects of inequality causing regressions in living quality advancements writ large across the population.

Correct, the US is unique in developed nations in that it does not have much of a safety net so most people tend to fall much harder and faster than they would in another high wealth country.

> There are endless possibilities for people who want to get out and actually do something.

If you're wealthy...

Oh please. You have an axe and you want to grind it. You can make professional level music with a few hundred dollars of software. Less than the cost of a smartphone, and everyone has one of those. The same can be said of visual arts. Last I checked writing was free. So was the public library, and your property taxes pay for parks and other things.

If you're "not doing things" because you think only the wealthy can, then you are the problem.

Life for those in the 25-35 demographic is extremely shitty when compared to the four generations that came before. Millenials entered into an economy where Boomers had accumulated the majority of all assets at bargain basement prices, and have been working non-stop to inflate those prices. Boomers have consistently enacted policies which have caused the price of their assets to skyrocket, locking out younger generations from the same opportunities Boomers had. With the market cornered and controlled, Boomers collect massively overinflated rent from Millennials that massively subsidizes their unsustainable lifestyles.

Millennials as a whole have effectively become an indentured servant class that exist primarily to subsidize rent seeking Boomers who continue to take far more share than any generation in history.

Even for the healthiest sectors of the economy, like tech, it turns out that a huge amount of the wealth being generated by the tech industry is just being captured by Boomer land lords sitting on their asses doing nothing productive. I've heard estimates that around 40% of the money put into the tech industry just passes through to land lords. A sickening amount to go to a group whose main quality is that they were just born in the right place at the right time.

Life is cut throat for Millenials. The margin for error is narrow than its been in almost 100 years, and that is extremely stressful. The unprecedented levels of drug abuse among Millenials is testament to just how high stress levels are on average for Millenials. Many choose to self medicate, and it doesn't end well for them.

Millenials have it really bad, and there's good reason for the feelings of "despair" and "hopelessness".

At least now we have Russian Doomer music to help us cope! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgjguiFxtps

All of the world's wealth goes to those who were conceived in the right place at the right time. Think of the injustice!

Social media has very, very little to do with it.

The fact is that no, things are not amazing in 2019 and there are not endless possibilities for people. You've traded social media for being blind to the woes that the poor face every day. People are dying because death is better than saddling your family with generational medical debt, the stress of losing everything if you get sick once pushes people beyond the limits they can handle and the lack of social opportunities due to working 24/7 to live piles on top.

I've had this discussion with my parents before, where they've straight up mentioned that they'd sooner die than potentially saddle me with debt if they ever get cancer or some other debilitating condition. What kind of fucking life is that to live?

You aren't liable for your parents' debt unless you voluntarily sign on as a guarantor.

That's objectively wrong, considering there are states with filial responsibility laws that can pass down medical debt from the parent to the child.

That also ignores that when a family member is sick even on Medicaid they're going to require assistance from the family, which can mean losing your job or benefits in order to support them. As someone that works out of state from the rest of my family, if my parents were to get sick or injured that would lead to the loss of my job if I chose to prioritize them over my career.

> I quit reading media, and eliminated all social media from my life, and I've never been happier.

Staggering numbers of people are dying from opioid overdoses, many of them from opiates that doctors were incentivized to push onto their patients by drug companies, or that were illegally distributed from pharmacies who looked the other way when there were enough pills going out the door to kill the entire population of the town they were in. It's bad enough that someone might even finally be held criminally liable for it.

It isn't the media's fault that any of that happened, and it's largely because of media attention that anyone is being held accountable for it. Blaming the media for accurately reporting on the state of the world is always the last refuge of the person who's run out of real arguments.

The argument from people who would rather not engage with the state of the world for a long time has been that anyone who complains about the state of the world is just watching the news too much, because "the data" always show that the world is getting inexorably better, all the time. That was always a specious argument, and now that life expectancy in America has been declining for three years in a row, that argument should finally be laid to rest entirely. But here you're reviving it, by blaming the decrease in life expectancy itself on the media. It's very innovative! But it's just as wrong.

> Blaming the media for accurately reporting on the state of the world is always the last refuge of the person who's run out of real arguments.

If you really believe the media, any media, is reporting things accurately in 2019 you are not thinking critically or actively searching for the truth.

> The argument from people who would rather not engage with the state of the world for a long time has been that anyone who complains about the state of the world is just watching the news too much

How much of your own time and money have you spent fighting the opioid epidemic? If you are willing to get ACTIVELY involved in an issue then by all means, consume media on the subject.

> If you really believe the media, any media, is reporting things accurately in 2019 you are not thinking critically or actively searching for the truth.

Please tell me which media source you consume that's telling you the other media sources are lying to you.

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