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Comment by bjt2n3904 | Hacker News Reader

I can't help but wonder if instead of confronting the source of our depression, we're simply drugging ourselves to the point we can't feel it anymore--especially that people are now looking to psilocybin as a means of treating depression. Perhaps the depression is a symptom of something bigger, a lack of purpose or meaning in life.

Someone I know was on medication for anxiety, and they remarked how they'd go to see a movie at the theater, and would simply have no emotional reaction to it. A character sacrificing their life for a friend would have the same reaction as tomatoes being sliced for a hamburger.

The medication had an INCREDIBLE affect on them, and it really helped them out of a bad place. But the huge thing is they learned to identify the source of their anxiety and confront it, and no longer depend on the medication.

I just make circuits. Don't take this as medical advice.

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With all respect to you as someone who is likely commenting in good faith, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. I have mental health problems that are all but solved by the medication I take, and I also have extensive experience with hallucinogens. Without the medication, I am as you describe: anhedonic, with a flat affect and little patience for, well, life. Hallucinogens also have exactly zero dulling effect, and the "glow" aftereffect from them is not a numbing, either. On the contrary, it's a deep and abiding understanding of place in the universe and sense of self. YMMV, obviously.

I can attest to that. Micro-dosing is only a bonus. In fact, I regularly stop taking them when I don't feel like it, and I'm just back to my normal self, not lower. No negative side effect, no dependencies, and it helps taking care of yourself: eating better, sleeping more, etc.

But OP is right on one thing: it is not a substance the body needs. It's an artificially induced condition, and it's why it's important to take days off. Sometimes I take a week, not just the 1/2 days of the most popular protocols.

This way you can see if you are improving deep inside, and that it's not just the drug saying you are fine. Plus those substance allow it: no hard in stopping cold turkey. It's beautiful how positive this stuff is.

Up to now, I can attest than, yes, even when I'm not taking it, I'm better. Mostly because when I take it, I live a better life.

On the topic of micro-dosing, I microdosed around 3-6ug LSS/day for 1.5 years. Stopped abruptly one day and haven’t used it since. So echoing your sentiment about how easy it is to stop.

Where do you get lsd for microdosing? Do you have to know someone? How do you know what it is you're getting? Or do you make it yourself?

Most people get LSD (and just about any other hallucinogens/empathogens) from the dark web.

Not OP but can confirm the exact same experience when microdosing psilocybin. I get them from friends who grow them. Spores are not illegal, they can be bought online and sent through the mail.

I think of all the illicit activities one can discuss with friends/neighbors/coworkers, magic mushrooms is the least concerning and most likely to result in a positive connection. At least here on the west coast anyways, lots of people have access to mushrooms and consume them occasionally. You just have to develop trusting relationships with people around you, and that's generally regarded as a good thing anyways.

It's not too difficult to ask some people if they want to go camping, and while out in the woods bring up a curiosity about magic mushrooms. Anyone who goes camping with you is very likely to be open to the idea if not pull a bag of shrooms out of their backpack on the spot.

I micro dose with psilocybin, and order on zamnesia in amsterdam since i'm in europe.

How long do you feel like this before you feel you have to hallucinate again?

Hallucinogens are often thought of as a way to cheat your way to mindfulness.

But really, they're more like a trailer or advertisement for mindfulness.

If you get lucky, you only need to take them once.

It's not about hallucinating. The important thing is that it provides a powerful soft reset on highly-habituated thought patterns, reactions, and perspectives.

People who experience depression and anxiety often times have ingrained negative or counter-productive thought patterns and micro reactions that are very difficult to overcome. Sometimes even noticing these patterns is quite tricky.

It makes a ton of sense to me that psilocybin, especially with the guidance of skilled therapists, can have this kind of incredible impact.

How long do you go between really good books? Or vacations to see beautiful scenery? Or really insightful conversations with good friends? Or enjoying a new perspective on a problem? Or between occasional visits with a therapist?

Hallucinogens can be (ab)used as a tool, like many others. The benefit is insight. (again, ymmv)

Just as respectfully -- neither does anyone in this thread. People are speaking very confidently about things that they have no basis to. For instance, are your mental health problems really solved, or only mitigated? If you stop taking the hallucinogens and the problems return, they aren't solved.

Obviously, I'm happy that you're suffering less. However, I'm highly skeptical that hallucinogens "solve" problems, instead of merely masking them. Hallucinogens may provide you with a feeling that you have a place in the universe, but they cannot provide an actual place for you. It takes work to find and create purpose in life. You can't create purpose with pills anymore than you can create strength with synthol injections.

Which is better -- a feeling backed by reality, or a feeling based on chemical reactions in your brain induced by a substance?

> Which is better -- a feeling backed by reality, or a feeling based on chemical reactions in your brain induced by a substance?

There are a hell of a lot of assumptions packed into this sentence.

I encourage you to go research the current understanding of mental health. There is a lot we don't understand, but I think what we do understand certainly doesn't support the perspective you are presenting.

I'm sure you mean well but I think there's a few things you're missing. Many people are getting diagnosed now instead of drinking to deal with their problems. Talking about mental health and seeking help is much more acceptable now than it has been before.

And here's a point of data for thought. I'm bipolar. In the United States, 2.8 out of every 100 people have the same diagnosis. Bipolar is highly genetic and largely incurable. Depression and anxiety disorders are far more common.

Yes, people can get anxious and depressed over life events but there are a great many people who truly need help because their problems don't have a known cause and there is no enemy to confront.

Perhaps the reason the current generations are "weaker" is we aren't hiding it anymore.

You know, your position is very common. It stems from the belief that our brain is dissociated from our mind/identity, and therefore existential-like issues should be treated as separate from the brain. But that is incorrect, as any introductory neurology reading (such as the works of Oliver Sacks) will show. Our brain is a body organ. An extremely complex, elusive and puzzling body organ, but a body organ nonetheless. And, like any organ, sometimes it malfunctions. Wishful thinking won't cure a broken leg, and the same is true about the brain.

> It stems from the belief that our brain is dissociated from our mind/identity, and therefore existential-like issues should be treated as separate from the brain.

I have a "put on the brakes" mentality about hallucinogens, and it stems from a Christian worldview, where existential issues encompass both the brain and the mind/identity.

If anyone is interested in knowing, the reasoning about hallucinogens from a Christian worldview would probably go something like: (a) everything in life has a spiritual implication or connection; (b) we are created above all to know and love God; (c) knowing God comes above all through being grounded in truth and reality, centered in the word of God (scripture), prayer, and community; (d) while hallucinogens seem to have some positive effects on the brain, they also cause one to have intense personal experiences that are disconnected from reality, potentially opening oneself to negative or false spiritual influences; and therefore (e) the major risk of hallucinogens is that they can alter people's spiritual capacity to know and desire God.

As for using it to treat depression, anxiety, terminally diagnosed patients, etc. -- I would be the last to want to deprive distressed people of a straightforward cure. But I'd avoid recommending them anyhow: my fear would be that while hallucinogens might help temporarily (i.e. in this life), the effect in the next could be catastrophic because it may have contributed significantly to suppressing their innate human capacity to know God, find his love, grace, and forgiveness, and be satisfied in him. Meanwhile, there are other helpful ways to treat things like depression that God has given -- the beautiful natural world, for starters ("forest bathing" is a thing because it's a really good idea; modern cities contribute significantly to anxiety).

1. I'm a Christian myself, and I see no contradiction between my religious beliefs and the rational conclusion that science tends to provide the best answers for a vast scope of phenomenons

2. I would never use hallucinogens out of my own volition. But, because science is credible, I would definitely do so if there were a reasonable consensus in the medical community that this category of drugs was beneficial for me.

3. I believe your idea of the effect of hallucinogens is incorrect. They do not disconnect one from reality but merely alters how such reality is perceived. One might even argue that hallucinogens can get you closer to "reality" (whatever that means...) by allowing you to notice a wider range of stimuli that is not available under normal conditions.

4. Maybe hallucinogens are gifts from God, like quinine, lithium, and penicillin.

I don't disagree with you. But your points (3) and (4) don't discount the problems inherent in altering one's perception of reality. Eph. 5:18 and similar texts warn "don't get drunk on wine" - not that wine itself is bad (au contrare!), but that too much alters one's perception of reality and leads one astray.

I agree with your point (4) -- yes, all things God created are good, these substances included. There is no created thing that is inherently evil, only taking a good thing at the wrong time or in the wrong way. So in the case of hallucinogens, I wouldn't necessarily disagree with microdosing for particular purposes. My point is that since they're God-given, natural substances, there is a right and proper way to approach their use. But putting one's mind under their influence (or the influence of any other substance) would cross the line, Biblically speaking.

Everything you do or experience "alters" your perception. It's just that we slowly build up habitual perceptual patterns and "tracks in the dirt" over many months and years of time, and so the changes usually occur too slowly or subtly for us to notice easily.

But not always! On rare days, something happens... a long series of cumulative affects finally precipitates or something unexpected comes at us in the just right way, shattering our view. And then after a brief period of processing, we wake up the next morning with a different perspective.

Psychedelics are like that in their own way. They seem to temporarily weaken these deeply-habitual thought patterns and perspectives, allowing one to look at things in a new way. It doesn't "alter" reality. It loosens our iron-grip on our own accumulated view of what we think reality should be. After the trip finishes, our grip re-strengthens, but it may be holding something slightly different, and perhaps a bit less desperately.

It's pretty fascinating stuff. I think it can be a powerful tool for our well-being if we use it carefully. Emphasis on the careful use! They can certainly cause harm if they are misused.

> (3) and (4) don't discount the problems inherent in altering one's perception of reality

1. AFAIK, Christianity does not negate the overall use of medicine

2. Mental illnesses are essentially a deviation from normal, healthy patterns of cognition.

3. When well applied, psychiatric medications can bring patients closer to reality instead of the opposite

4. If (and only if) some hallucinogens become universally approved as effective medications for such illnesses, the same reasoning could also be applied to them

5. Therefore, in the context of your interpretation of Christianity, these medications might actually bring patients closer to God.

That line of reasoning just boils down to "it brings one further from God", and it has been applied to everything that the church wishes to demonize. But that reasoning is always applied backwards. People aren't starting from "What would bring us further from God?" and deducing their way to psychedelics and other things frowned upon by the church. It happens the other way around. The church says that certain things are bad, and then use lines of reasoning like "it brings one further from God" after the fact to justify the arbitrary decision.

So I suppose I take issue with it being called "reasoning" when really it's an after the fact justification with no bearing on reason whatsoever.

It's also interesting that a lot of religions use psychedelics to get _closer_ to God(s), and the "reasoning" there is equally as sound.

I just want healthy lifestyles to be part of the equation too. For mental problems just as for physical, sometimes the solution can be no medication and a healthier lifestyle instead. I've made this journey out of depression and it involves sleep, avoiding stress, gaining social contacts (slow!), exercise and diet.

That's a fair point, but for some mental disorders, the brain is wired into a state of permanent anxiety, wherein it becomes extremely difficult to 'learn' that normal situations do not deserve heightened stress responses. The most famous book on this subject is probably Bessel van der Kolk's book The Body Keeps the Score. For people who have been so traumatized that their ability to regulate emotions is nigh-totally kaput, medication can offer a window of relief that enables the kind of healing that sticks, even when the medication has worn off.

A part of the reasons for a lot of human mental health issues are that the conditions that we evolved in are no longer true (generally). Basic survival was a constant, life or death struggle and states like anxiety were often a readiness factor for real dangers.

Remove those dangers, and remove most of the struggle (although we will always re-define what struggle is) and we're a bit like fish out of water. We're still trying to adapt.

I took Effexor (Venlafaxine) for a few years due to severe social anxiety along with a couple of other issues. It had an enormous impact on me, dramatically reducing virtually all anxiety. It did for sure remove emotion in a lot of contexts, particularly remote empathy type situations. On the flip side it made me much more rational -- suddenly remote risks and dangers just didn't raise alarm anymore.

I stopped taking it because it was making me sleepy almost all the time and....the anxiety never returned. It's like a medically-induced cognitive behavioral therapy, but I really worried about a return of those social and avoidant behaviors...but they never did.

> Remove those dangers, and remove most of the struggle (although we will always re-define what struggle is) and we're a bit like fish out of water. We're still trying to adapt.

I suppose this is a bit like that one theory of allergies and autoimmune disorders; they may be caused because we aren't exposed to parasites anymore. That part of the immune system thus never gets trained and can sometimes go haywire.

a heroic dose of psilocybin is very likely to make you confront the source of depression.

Whatever there is under the surface affecting you, it certainly isn't going to hide during a heroic trip. Quite the contrary, it gets amplified, taken to it's extreme - and if you accept it, you'll be shown the other side. And it starts loosing its power over you.

The "source" or your "problem" likely isn't what you thought it was at first either, according to a friend.

So it's not a drug that will make the pain go away. It will show you things through experience, which is a powerful way of learning.

I think it's important to remember that when treating depression, often you will use therapy and medication.

People sometimes do as you are doing and seem to imply the medication is used instead of working out your problems. But it's really just one part of a whole.

I'd say that doing both things is not just common, but almost mandatory.

I've been to a lot of psychiatrists in the last 15 years, and all of them made a point to tell me that I should also seek a psychotherapist.

I agree and disagree with you.

From my experience with depression/anxiety, and hallucinogens like LSD/Psilocybin I would say that has the capability to put you in a state of mind where you can see yourself from a different perspective (because it makes you a somewhat different person for a short time). This lets you learn things about yourself that many people don't pick up on the day to day. In fact, in my experience with LSD I've found that if there's something in your life that your ignoring and it's causing you some emotional trouble it's almost guaranteed to come up when you trip.

On the other hand, the best way I've found to manage depression is simply going outside and running really fast for a long time.¯\_(ツ)_/¯. It's free and you don't have to wait for scientists to study it, politicians and activists to debate it, or find a dealer you trust to give it to you.

Psilocybin has the opposite of a numbing effect. It increases emotional sensitivity.

>especially that people are now looking to psilocybin as a means of treating depression

I might be wrong and please correct me if I am, but I'm interpreting you saying that as a bad thing. If you are saying that as if it's a bad, or perhaps 'crazy' thing, why? Why would turning to a natural compound that shows promise, be any different than a synthetic chemical cocktail that similarly interacts with the brain?

Yes I know, natural doesn't eman something is safe or good (I mean, all sorts of things are naturally fatal to humans) but I see this as an actual good thing. What limited exploration with such compounds as a means of treating (or curing) various mental issues looks promising and removing the legal barriers and stigmas associated with these 'drugs' to properly test them seems like a great thing

1. Maybe depression is a neurological phenomenon, which actually requires drugs (but NOT just drugs) to be endured

2. I wish antidepressants were as powerful as you think...

After years of trying to confront the source of my depression, I found out that I inherited incurable bipolar disorder and the only proven effective treatment is drugs. How do you think I should confront that?

Well, psilocybin will most certainly not have the effect that your friend experienced. It doesn't work like that at all.

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