It's 2019, but It Sure Feels a Lot Like 1998 for Stocks
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That obviously didn't happen for me, or most anyone else that started working in 1998.
But today doesn't feel like that. I don't see college kids being encouraged to drop out and make a fortune in tech. In fact what I do see are people being encouraged to graduate at the top of their class so they can get jobs at highly profitable FAANG companies.
It does feel a little frothy, especially with all of the non-profitable tech companies that are doing IPOs this year and next, but it feels more reserved this time.
Also, it feels like the VCs are the one taking the majority of the damage this time, not retail investors.
Except for those encouraged to skip college entirely...
My alma mater, a small midwestern college in the last five years has had record enrollment. My two nieces just graduated and had to apply to close to a dozen schools. On all of their visits, the tour guide consistently reported enrollment numbers were at all time highs and how competitive it had become to get accepted.
These were not huge Big 10 or Ivy League schools. Most of them were small liberal arts colleges on the west coast and a handful of smaller midwestern state universities.
Despite the narrative that kids should opt out of college, it would appear the trend is more than likely kids are continuing to go to college and in record numbers.
It's very difficult to drag yourself out of the 'no credentials, no good job' hole, if you are 18 years old, don't have useful connections, luck, an incredible work ethic, or all of the above.
Most people don't have one or all of the above, and college solves this problem for the vast majority of enrolling students.
Sounds like a Ponzi scheme, but I don't deny it is true. Whoever can differentiate from the 99% i.e plumbers will be able to name their price when dealing with these sheeples, there will simply be too much demand and nearly no supply.
Thiel and co. don't have the resources to fund that dream for so many individuals.
Maybe consider college is not a universal good.
This has been true for India for a long time but the trend has been reversing since 2014 with the explosion of VC and in particular Angel investments that followed the Indian unicorn boom. Surprised that Europe is on a different trajectory.
> Also, it feels like the VCs are the one taking the majority of the damage this time, not retail investors.
Are majority investors who would have usually invested in the public markets now channeling capital to growth stage funds or are they calling bluff when these unicorns do float IPOs? If the former, not really sure if it's bad or good and for whom, but kind of makes for a very different proposition to the dot-com bubble of 2000s.
For instance, just today, paytm which long lost its market leader position in B2C/ P2P payments in India to Walmart's PhonePe, GooglePay, and WhatsApp, announced $1 billion in Series G funding that takes the total to $4.3 billion raised so far [0] with $500 million in losses just this past year. I really fail to understand the economics behind growth stage fund at all if it is clear that public markets aren't going to bail these investors out if the companies aren't making profits to justify valuation. Google India has openly complained abt the current P2P/B2C payments market as a loss leader with no path forward on generating revenue.
Either that, or like patio11 says, the amt of capital flowing through the markets is astounding [1]; and so I wonder if I am missing some key insights to be able to grasp the economics of it all, as an outsider?
I've only worked at one FAANG company, but they actively encourage every good intern to drop out and start working full time.
I don't even follow the valuations of the stock markets, I've been told they are high, but for tech I'm sure they are nowhere near those of 1998, so I don't think that tech will burst the bubble of everything.
I am however sure the party cannot go on for much longer, the negative interest rates and permanent increase of balance sheets of the FED and other central banks will either cause a stockmarket prolongued downturn, or fuck the whole financial system so profoundly that in 20 years time we won't be able to recognise it, nor be able to call our economies market-based or capitalistic.
[1] https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Markets/Bank-of-Japan-to-be... (Bank of Japan to be top shareholder of Japan stocks)
You hardly see that anywhere else in the market, like you'd never see Ford go up 2000% in 5 years without people screaming the sky is falling in every economic publication, but here we are with these tech evaluations. It's almost as if smart money dictating these headline narratives doesn't want retail to stop buying one off shares of FAANGs, and that is worrysome.
I consider this a common theme of this very site and its owner: Y Combinator. They encourage people to drop out of school for their companies, and celebrate their stories of success. At least investors are pushing this narrative.
> Meet Bob.
> Bob is the world’s worst market timer.
> What follows is Bob’s tale of terrible timing of his stock purchases.
* https://awealthofcommonsense.com/2014/02/worlds-worst-market...
Better yet, just put away a little every month and get on with life:
> Logically, it seems like Buy the Dip can’t lose. If you know when you are at a bottom, you can always buy at the cheapest price relative to the all-time highs in that period. However, if you actually run this strategy you will see that Buy the Dip underperforms DCA over 70% of the time. This is true despite the fact that you know exactly when the market will hit a bottom. Even God couldn’t beat dollar-cost averaging.
* https://ofdollarsanddata.com/even-god-couldnt-beat-dollar-co...
Over the last 100 years, the US has had a great run and stock market returns have reflected that. By only looking at American returns you're cherry-picking the best results so your model is flawed.
And the same is basically true if you bought in 1966. What this tells me is that the Dow Jones (or stock market in general?) is not a good indicator (or even proxy) of wealth. Because GDP obviously grew immensely in both 30 years periods.
Based on this [1] calculator, you'd break event by 1940.
"Although it is one of the most commonly followed equity indices, since it only includes 30 companies and is not weighted by market capitalization and is not a weighted arithmetic mean,[citation needed] many consider the Dow to not be a good representation of the U.S. stock market and consider the S&P 500 Index, which also includes the 30 components of the Dow, to be a better representation of the U.S. stock market." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dow_Jones_Industrial_Average
* https://www.inquirer.com/philly/business/vanguard-sp-500-ret...
* https://www.marketwatch.com/story/vanguard-employees-wont-ha...
It's literally adding up the prices of 30 stocks and dividing by a divisor that's been adjusted over time as stocks are added and removed from the index. It was easy to calculate early on, and it's continued because it's famous.
And the DAX has generally given decent results since 1955:
* https://topforeignstocks.com/2014/01/09/dax-index-returns-by...
Meta: interesting paper called "The Rate of Return on Everything, 1870–2015":
* https://economics.harvard.edu/files/economics/files/ms28533....
https://ofdollarsanddata.com/realistic-investment-results/
I think what I took from it is there's a level at which I sort of don't take the criticism I guess seriously (more like harsly?) of DCA, because like, after much gnashing and grinding of teeth, life looks a lot like dollar cost averaging for most folks.
So okay, then we can talk about diversification, which is important, and this and that and blah. But like, unless you hit it big and sell your business or something and suddenly have to figure out what to do with 7-8 figures, you don't quite experience the same problem.
It just feels like as tempting as the standard deviation on potential performance looks like, and as convincing as the anecdotes feel, how real is any of this? There's more important factors that are definitely in your control, vs things that questionably or I suppose reasonably aren't.
Corporate profits, economic data, geopolitical stability can all flip quite quickly (just look at Germany in 1914, per grandparent poster) - demographics is the one factor that is relatively stable.
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/2000-years-economic-history...
From about 1900 to 2015 America was totally dominant. It's only in the last few years that China has overtaken us.
EDIT: I see my original comment was misleading, I was thinking of the weight of the US on the world market as that was the context of the thread, not of the whole economy.
It's extremely unlikely that the next 100 years will be anywhere near as turbulent as the past 100 years. In particular nuclear weapons increase the variance to the point that it's no longer relevant for stock portfolios. We're not going to have another Great War or WW2. Either we'll have peace between the great powers, or you won't care about your stock portfolio because you'll be vaporized.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Thomson,_1st_Baron_Kel...
Moreover, if that sort of thing ever does happen again, your biggest problem is not that your stock portfolio is doing poorly, it's that you're in Nazi Germany in the midst of an all out war.
Everyone lost, it's just a question of how badly.
The key factor is that if people are pricing in the expectation that we'll do the work to solve the problem before that happens, that expectation is only valid if we actually do.
Most people (who do invest) invest by cutting off a slice of every paycheck. This strategy will happily let you weather crashes.
Combined with a guaranteed-payment pension (Social security, employer pension, government pension, etc), it's a pretty good way of securing your retirement (Even if you have to take a haircut on the payout of the guaranteed-payment pension.)
https://www.cadtm.org/Russian-bonds-never-die
(basically, the Russian Empire borrowed a lot of money (several billions of Gold Francs), specially in France, and the Soviets, when they came to power, defaulted on these debts).
When Emptying the house of my late grand-mother after she died we actually found a few of these bonds.
I got one and, now, it's in a frame as part of my home decoration (I didn't feal like asking Mr. Putin for my ancestors' money back).
This isn’t even mentioning the current market manipulation that central banks are engaging in around the globe to artificially inflate the value of stocks. What happens when we can no longer prop up equities? The consequences may be far worst as we’ve been effectively kicking the can down the road. Eventually the tab arrives and the people left with it will be those who hardly benefited from this historic run-up.
Also “past performance does not indicate future performance”
I see no reason to be bearish on equities long term, but I do know that certain industries will run into serious problems, I just don't know which ones that will be necessarily. I buy broad index funds because I'm bullish on the market in general, but not on any particular sector.
If you buy today and the economy crashes tomorrow, it's only going to be a problem for you if you sell. Wait 2 years and you are back where you were today, wait another 2 years and you've made money. Recessions only really affect people about to retire or on the chopping block for layoffs.
See this study by Vanguard: https://personal.vanguard.com/pdf/ISGDCA.pdf
It should be noted that "DCA" is often used as a colloquial synonym for "continuous, automatic investing":
> But most individual investors, especially in the context of retirement investing, never face a choice between lump sum investing and DCA investing with a significant amount of money. The disservice arises when these investors take the criticisms of DCA to mean that timing the market is better than continuously and automatically investing a portion of their income as they earn it.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollar_cost_averaging#Confusio...
https://awealthofcommonsense.com/2018/05/the-lump-sum-vs-dol...
It seems to refer to periodically re-balancing the distribution of one's holdings based on target proportions of total dollar value.
IMO, you invest strategically. Build cash positions over time as you ride the business cycle. Don't get greedy -- pigs get slaughtered, if you're investing in high-flying times, you should take profits and have some cash. I was just getting started in the 90s, and rode stocks like Amazon and Red Hat up to stratospheric heights. But when like 90% of Amazon's value vaporized, I had cashed out enough of my position that I was able to hold on and invest in other areas.
The same strategy served me well in 2008. I was able to get onboard high-quality investments at ridiculously cheap prices, which would not have happened if I was 100% invested.
The cost of this type of strategy is that you lose compounding. From my POV, I value having access to liquidity and the abilty to take advantage of market opportunities.
The primary reason most people save/invest is for retirement. So if you start saving at the age of 25, after schooling, that's forty years until the 'traditional' retirement age of 65.
> IMO, you invest strategically. Build cash positions over time as you ride the business cycle.
The odds are stacked against you when buying the dip:
> Why is this true? Because buying the dip only works when you know that a severe decline is coming and you can time it perfectly. Since dips, especially big ones, haven’t happened too often in U.S. market history (i.e. 1930s, 1970s, 2000s), this strategy rarely beats DCA. And the times where it does beat DCA require impeccable timing. Missing the bottom by just 2 months lowers the chance of outperforming DCA from 30% to 3%.
* https://ofdollarsanddata.com/even-god-couldnt-beat-dollar-co...
Your example doesn't fit as perfect timing isn’t required, I just realize gains and invest a proportion of them when opportunity presents itself.
I’m not selling investment advice, just sharing my experience. This portion of my portfolio performs better than the more bogle-ish 401k fund from circa 1996 through 6/2019.
If someone's equity-fixed portfolio allocation (given a individual's risk/volatility tolerance) becomes unbalanced, then liquidating one asset class to purchase another is standard practice:
* https://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/rebalancing.asp
Though, per Vanguard/Bogle, it does not have to be done too often: either once a year, or even every few years once the allocations get more that ±5% out seems to be sufficient.
The worst 40-year period in that chart starts in the late seventies and at that time valuation was the cheapest since the depression. That was around the bottom, no need to wait 10 years.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&biw=1536&...
Oh, yeah, when it went from 100 to about 7 in 1999-2001. It's currently about 1700.
If. /Sparta
But you're not wrong, there is a difference: crap like Uber doesn't shoot to the moon on opening day. Or, as you put it, people aren't throwing money at them, hence Uber (et. al) still sitting under IPO price. That's what I think might save us from a repeat of early 2000s. Hair stylists aren't giving me stock advice these days, either.
I think the main reason for this is that all the upside and speculation has already been taken by earlier investors and an IPO is done only when there is basically no upside left. In 1998 Uber would have gone IPO much earlier and retail investors would have driven up the price, not the VCs as it’s done now.
What’s common is that we have a lot of companies who don’t even have the slightest idea how to become profitable other than a miracle happening.
Not sure how this will end but judging from 2002 and following it won’t be pretty for a lot of people that are flying high in the current market.
Microsoft famously had a single venture investment for what amounted to less than 10% of the company (but did get a board seat).
And lots of people pretty sure the whole thing was a bubble but almost feeling compelled to jump in anyway.
I'm not saying there won't be a correction at some point but you're mostly not seeing the wild price increases in the absence of any fundamentals and, in fact, the market seems to have mostly said "meh" to the Blue Aprons, WeWorks, and Ubers of the world.
In summary, smarter investors and better regulation seems to have kept the market in check, for now.
The troubles start when a sizable chunk of the market suddenly goes underwater, disrupting existing supply chains and shaking investor confidence and predictability. Those events have not yet occurred.
Today's companies , even if they have losses, are cash-flow positive. They are operating at a profit but reinvesting those profits on large capital expenditures, which produce losses. This is similar to Amazon, Tesla, Netflix, and Salesforce.
Zoom and Twillio.
Zoom and Pager Duty. To your point, everything else has been meh.
And of course there are a number of stable self-sufficient businesses who never report profits; in fact they are called nonprofits. The Sierra Club was founded in 1892, for example.
Call it what you want, revenue, profits, whatever, you are not sustainable if you don't bring in more than you spend.
This matters a lot for software businesses with recurring revenue (i.e. most SaaS businesses). With software, you build the software once and then you have an asset that you can sell a potentially infinite number of times, for many years into the future. The engineering salaries for building the software count as R&D, and get deducted from the current year's income statement. Then you sell the software, which may take an expensive consultative sales process but signs up a customer who will continue paying monthly for several years. The sales expense is recorded in the current year, but the revenue is booked over several years.
The metric you're looking for is unit economic profitability, and specifically for B2B software businesses, LTV - CAC. If this is positive, then you are making more for each customer you sign up than it cost to sign them up, and you have a sustainable business (at least until the competitive landscape changes, which is a risk every business faces). This is not the same thing as GAAP profitability: if you know that you have a product that makes $5 in revenue for every $1 in sales you put in, it makes sense to raise as much capital as possible, hire as many salespeople as possible, and get every possible user using the software before a competitor comes out. That will look like a money-losing business under GAAP, because for every dollar that comes in this year you might be spending $2 in sales. But the part that's missing from the GAAP statement is that next year you have 4x as many customers who will continue paying you money at no additional cost to you. At some point, when the growth curve flattens, you just lay off the salespeople and milk the existing customers for everything they're worth. This is the story of Oracle, Microsoft, Cisco, and now Facebook and Google.
VCs know to look for these metrics (along with growth rate, net promoter score, engagement, and churn, which are proxies for CAC and LTV). The general public does not, and they're not required in SEC disclosures or normal accounting statements (which generally predate the SaaS business model).
A business is either fundamentally profitable and sustainable, or it isn't.
If you spend more on marketing than the customer lifetime value, or if you have high churn, then yes, you have a failed business. But if you have reasonable marketing, high growth, low churn, then you will have a fairly incredible money printing machine in the future. And there are many people willing to give you $10 now if you promise a portion of this future profit machine!
Amazon has reported profits almost every year since 2003 (the only exceptions are 2012 and 2014). The loss accumulated in 1994/2002 was $3bn ($4.3bn adjusted for inflation). Uber has been losing over $3bn per year since 2016 ($15bn so far).
But they are going to coding bootcamps.
Every one remember 2008 and 2000. Beating the drum about a depression being around the corner, makes people takes preemptive decisions that stop such disasters from happening.
The seed of skepticism has been sown, and while I hope it doesn't grow, I am glad it has planted itself among people with power to swing economies.
The new wave "tech" companies, like Netflix and Tesla, haven't had a yearly profit yet.
And those are the best examples of "modern tech" (anyone who IPO'd after 2007). If we get into MoviePass, Uber, Lyft, Pelton, WeWork, etc. etc., we're into the "lose $4 Billion PER QUARTER" group.
Tesla "only loses $1 Billion/year" (roughly), making it a far more "profitable" company than these other ones.
I absolutely think we're in a bubble: driven by cheap debt. The problem is that I can't call when it will pop. Without knowing how or why things will pop, its completely useless to speculate. Stocks remain the best investment moving forward: with global bonds entering negative interest rates, and US Debt at record low-interest.
So even if I think there's a bubble, I'm pumping stocks because I don't have any better idea of what to invest into.
Tech companies make money because the cost of scaling a tech service to support more users is pennies on the dollar. Just spin up more servers - most of your expenses are fixed, regardless of whether you serve 2 users, or 2 million. This is why Wall Street fawns over them.
Unless Tesla has built a Star Trek replicator, it's not a tech company. It's a car company, that must spend 95 cents on building a car, to secure 1 dollar of revenue from selling it.
* Moviepass is a tech company, even though they were only selling subscription movie tickets.
* Peleton is a tech company, even though they sell exercise equipment.
* Tesla is a tech company, even though they just sell cars.
* Uber / Lyft are tech companies, even though they are just a middle-management service for... effectively Taxis.
* WeWork is a tech company, even though its business model is straight up commercial real-estate subleasing.
* Netflix is a tech company, even though it just spent a $Billion on studios, new TV shows, and other entertainment costs.
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Everyone is a "tech" company. Because that's how you siphon off money from investors these days. Even Amazon seems to be turning into a glorified FedEx / Warehousing / logistics company.
When everyone is a tech-company, no one is a tech company. Its the nature of the current bubble IMO.
They just so happen to have a boring low margin retail business attached to it for legacy reasons.
But only made 90 Billion in "service sales" (AWS and subscription services). Note that Amazon Prime counts as service sales, so plenty of "product revenue" falls under the service boat in practice.
https://ir.aboutamazon.com/node/32656/html#sB4CED683083F59A8...
Amazon's storefront makes more than 50% of all of their services combined in profit, and is ~1000%+ more revenue. Yeah, it costs a lot to run the Amazon warehouses, but Amazon is still primarily a warehouse / storefront company by all measurements on their income sheets.
For 2018 actual operating income was $3.1bln for AWS and $1.078bln for global retail. (page 66).
Top line metrics are popular in tech circles because so many "unicorns" don't actually make any profit. But it will lead you astray if your goal is to actually make money.
[1] https://ir.aboutamazon.com/static-files/0f9e36b1-7e1e-4b52-b...
It's institutional investors (think pensions) chasing returns because of low interest rates.
PE's played a role in a lot of things we're currently seeing.
I wouldn't characterize its role in tech quite as propping up a bubble. Easy money means companies are trying a winner-take-all approach, loss-making longer, and delaying IPOs. Tech IPO performance has been mostly lackluster because of a lack of profits and private investors already captured gains from most of the growth.
Outside tech, they've been buying up medical companies, raising out-of-network rates, leading to surprise medical bills.
They're also under fire for leveraged buyouts, but turning around distressed assets is what PE's historically been good at, and for all the noise about leveraged buyouts and store closures, these were already sinking ships. PE didn't kill Toys R Us, Amazon did.
Now it's ICOs...
But that doesn't give me comfort because from what I've seen before every crash people said to themselves: "this time it's different."
[1] https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/ROKU/roku/net-inco...
[2] https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/6/18214331/spotify-earnings-...
Investors signal they approve of this strategy by continuing to invest in Netflix, despite not getting juicy dividends.
Netflix could massive reduce spend on OC and payout dividends, but that would be ultimately damaging to the long-term success of the company.
The angle where something like this could happen would be the advertising bubble, if there is one, collapsing. Then there are many companies who are currently quite solvent and profitable that suddenly wouldn't be.
SQ, SHOP, TWLO, WDAY, NOW, OKTA, TEAM, MRVL, SPOT, SPLK, PANW, DOCU, TSLA, ROKU, DXCM.
These are all $10+ billion market cap and negative earnings. There are tons more in the 5-10 billion range.
1999 was full of companies where even if they had captured 100% of the relevant market at the time, would still not be turning a profit or be viable businesses. They were fundamentally built on the presumption that 2015-levels of internet penetration and hardware capabilities in the first world would be obtained in 2001 or so. It wasn't just a matter of "they were investing what could have been profits into further growth", it was a lot more like "they were taking VC money and setting it on fire and calling that a business model". It is not the same today. (Modulo my caveat about advertiser money above.) It may be bad. But 1999 was insane.
I can easily see a correction, even one we'd consider large. But I would bet the "correction" doesn't undo more than two years of stock market growth when it happens, and it may not even manage to cause a recession, or if it does, a very minimal one.
Slack is a true tech company, Uber/Lyft and AirBnB are app tech companies but not WeWork. Peloton is not a tech company. Zoom, Crowdstrike, and Pager Duty are tech companies.
Straight from the horse's mouth (We Co's S-1 Filing, pg.2):
"Technology is at the foundation of our global platform. Our purpose-built technology and operational expertise has allowed us to scale our core WeWork space-as-a-service offering quickly, while improving the quality of our solutions and decreasing the cost to find, build, fill and run our spaces. We have approximately 1,000 engineers, product designers and machine learning scientists that are dedicated to building, integrating and automating the complex systems we use to operate our business. As a result, we are able to deliver a premium experience to our members at a lower price relative to traditional alternatives."
Oh don't worry about those losses, we're the next Amazon. Except bigger than Amazon, because we're not just a company, but a "state of consciousness." btw did I tell you our CEO is going to become the world's first trillionaire? It's all amazing news and I hope you join our family
Two. Now that Bloomberg is running for president, I am suspect of any doom-and-gloom articles published by his media properties.
CMD+SHIFT+R
After this if anyone still thinks that MSM is honest about Trump, they're either deluded or dishonest.
Interest rates are at just 2%, versus in the late '90s, in 2006, and the late 80s , when the were at 5-6% or higher. It may be at least 5 years before rate bump against the upper-end of the cycle, around 5%, and then another 3 years for the market to finally crest.
SP500 companies are also on average holding much more Net cash than in 1998.
Banks are also much more prepared in Asset and Cashflow due to regulation puts into place after the 2008. Not saying they cant financially make go burst, but at least on paper they are better.
So Apart from the Macros, Countries with much higher debt and sociality as a whole with inequalities.. etc. Business on the whole are doing very well.
What? I guess "Friends" mention was intended as a joke here, but it surely does not look funny considering previous sentence.
They can write such articles every year:
- stocks are surging and there are wildfires in California, just like 20 years ago
- market is down today and Schwarzenegger is making new Terminator, just like 30 years ago