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Comment by WhompingWindows | Hacker News Reader

Super placebo is a scientifically incorrect description. These drugs suppress activity of the default mode network of the brain, which is a sort of "conductor" of the brain, which chooses which "instruments" to prioritize and how to allocate the train of thought. All of the different parts of your mind are able to sing out more creatively and independently, forging new paths that they are not accustomed to taking -- this is why it's great for mental illnesses like depression, anxiety, alcoholism, smoking -- it allows your mind an incredible flexibility.

In my personal experiences with psychedelics, these drugs remove mental heuristics, allowing the mind to think unimpeded by usual thought patterns, simply accepting raw data as it comes in. This was striking in sensory information, if you closed your eyes or just stared at something long enough, you observed incredibly different visual input, geometric patterns, greatly strengthened colors (a strawberry was INCREDIBLY beautiful, I almost felt bad eating such a beautiful entity). There was also an incredible inter-disciplinary thought process, I felt the musical, mathematical, computational, logical, natural, all these parts of my mind mixed together wonderfully.

LSD was much longer lasting, around 12 hours, whereas psilocybin was around 6 hours. Psilocybin enhanced my connection with nature, the flying bugs, a handful of berries, and the plants all around me caused an effusion of love and connection. Whereas with LSD, I felt an extremely powerful visual stimulation, the changing fall leaves were extremely vibrant and beautiful, it was akin to 12 hour, mentally-clear cannabis high. I didn't experience any "flashbacks" per se, there was a positive glow in my mood and thoughts for around 5 days, and the day after LSD I still had lingering effects...I also wonder if I will evermore look at the surface of ponds and lakes differently, they have an incredible dynamism and vitality that I appreciated even more on first trip.

For anyone considering psychedelics, do it thoughtfully and methodically. Read the book mentioned in the parent, practice meditation, explore your mind, and really ensure your mindset ("set") is positive and open. Further, plan to occupy a peaceful, quiet place, hopefully lacking too many strangers/social interaction ("setting"). If set and setting are good, you're in for a wonderful time.

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I took a strong psychedelic once, and a high dose at that. I tripped for over 12 hours, and by the end of the trip I was seriously considering changing my life in significant ways. For days after the trip I was considering making these changes. My thought patterns and assumptions had made a complete jump from one train of thought to another.

This experience made me realize how much of our outlook on things is dominated by whatever mode of thinking we happen to be in, and that mode is more shaped by custom and habit than anything approaching logic and reason.

I know it's a very private question, but would you be able to describe the trip and the long lasting effects more?

There is a spectrum of retrospectives. Re trip description. Most people tend to just say it's cool, you see stuff/colors brighter and emotionally impactful etc.

My key story for last is laying in a bed in close proximity to a freeway. I could not choose to unhear/see with my eyes closed as a car drove down the freeway cylinders/rods and combustion. . I on extremely rare occasion hear this type of story from other peeps.

Long lasting effect ... In the immediately following week I had the most significant behavior shift I can think of... Had been smoking since 11 years old... The LSD was approx 9th grade ..solidly solidly stopped for about a year. Pot. Everything. I'm back. I'm an idiot at heart give or take.. but what a beautiful year.

> My thought patterns and assumptions had made a complete jump from one train of thought to another.

William James uses the analogy that our set of habits are like an irregular polyhedron resting on one of its faces. Everyday experiences may rock it up onto an edge, but it will usually come to rest where it was, or perhaps on a neighboring face.

A more singular, meaningful experience has more “push” to it, overcoming the force of habit in a way that no amount of daily prodding would, rolling the whole thing onto a new face that would take ages to land on otherwise. He was writing about religious conversions at the time, but there seems to be a lot of overlap with the effects of a psychedelic experience.

Agree here. The heaviest experience of my life ..well above guns pointed at me a couple times, almost drowning, cliff mistakes on snowboards. . .was the first time I did LSD. I was probably 15 and took enough for 4+ confident people (a heavy guess... 3 and a quarter sugar cubes each with a drop "or so" from a visine bottle (typical sale vehicle)).

I gave up on it doing anything about an hour after eating the first cube. Got dropped off at home .. had to go skiing with best and his mom. Vaguely remember running through my neighborhood at 3am, waking up a different friend, and leaving minutes later.. being in the bathroom at my house, and being in my friends mom's car the next morning.

Later in life I returned to mature versions of this activity and found incomprehensibly beautiful visuals, patterns, self realizations about state of mind, perspective, the meaninglessness of "cool", purpose of building things(socially, as a species, not regarding myself). For me lsd is about the thoughts that result from the general "high".

While I have only done it 6 or so times and may never again. . I believe it has amazing properties for some people and not so good for others. Some old pals are from last I saw them ...quite literally fried, but perhaps due to other activities.

#dothingslikeanadult

> For me lsd is about the thoughts that result from the general "high".

100%. It has a reputation as a thing that weirdos do to have fun or see cool things.

If you "do it like an adult" I've found that it invokes a deeply introspective and thoughtful mode of thinking that can give you new perspective on different areas, both major and minor, in your life.

But like good advice that you might get from a wiser person, it's only useful if you use your insights to better yourself.

I've made immense progress in the areas of personal development and management due to such insights. It wasn't overnight - it inspired small changes in behavior that only years later, I can see the dramatic effects of. If it inspired even a 1 degree correction to a better direction, 10 years later the difference can be immense.

Jesus... When you put it this way ...lsd kind of... Sort of saved my life (quite a reach but I was 100% no idea what or why anything was and just trying to have fun and have friends to avoid painful self truths). Finding a a way to detach yet still seeing yourself. .. it is beyond. I want it again but don't want to be so...

There is a also an iffy side to LSD which I only discovered the last time I did it 2 years ago. Never had a similar feeling ever. Vaguely felt like I wasnt seeing and thinking from the same brain / identity I'm used to. So I approximately said no more.

Anyway... I deeply appreciate the reply here too. Had no idea what to expect here. Thank you.

I really, really want to deliver to you the message that I understand.

Cheers to this. When I took it I prepared for weeks. I fasted. I kept a journal during the experience. I had a plan. It wasn't just to "see stuff". I also always spaced experiences out 6 months, and I actually never took more than a single tab at once.

>the meaninglessness of “cool”

It’s kind of hard to convey just how much this particular aspect of LSD changed my outlook. I too was quite young at the time I tried it. It made me rethink my media diet, which at 15 was filled with MTV and trash TV. That has stayed with me ever since.

My eyes welled up a bit with your reply... I have never connected on this point with someone.

Not that I have made a specific effort to but thank you so much.

This is what I fear most. I might abandon my livelihood and passion for technology after a rather earth-shattering trip that makes me question everything I believe in.

What I've found is that in the short term you may question everything, but in the long term you settle back down and only continue questioning what you should have been questioning in the first place.

> It was akin to 12 hour, mentally-clear cannabis high.

This is the best way to describe reasonable (small) doses of LSD. It's like the purest sativa possible; as if somebody removed all of the earthiness and stoniness and then amplified the psychoactive.

I guess. Versus comparing it to alcohol, anyway. However, in my experience, psilocybin is closer to THC than to LSD.

But they're really very different experiences.

Alcohol does accentuate psilocybin, acceptably.

But combining marijuana with either, especially LSD, can be frightening. Your short term memory drops to a few seconds, so you can forget who (or even what) you are, where you are, etc. Some people panic, and fear that they'll never be sober again.

Is it a good idea to take any of these - alcohol, Marijuana, LSD, mushrooms - with antidepressants? That is, if you're on medication, should you stay away from all recreational drug use?

The effects of serotonergic psychedelics(LSD, psilocybin, DMT) are reduced by SSRI medications.

Yeah. I had stopped using LSD before using SSRIs.

Later, I used to vacation in Amsterdam for the shrooms. But I'd go off the SSRI maybe a week or so before the trip.

It is imperative that you do not combine psychedelics with antidepressants! This can lead to dangerous side effects / behaviors! If you take a combination of drugs this is even more important to heed.

The proper path is to wean yourself off of the antidepressants for the experience, and then only undertake the experience with an experienced sitter or guide.

https://wiki.tripsit.me/images/3/3a/Combo_2.png

Psilocybins effect is enhanced by MAOI and decreaces by SSRIs. LSD effects are decreased by both. With other other psychedelics you have to be a bit carefull.

You probably think of MDMA and MAOIs, this would be a dangerous combination.

Yes, MAOI dramatically increase and prolong effects of DMT.

And indeed, that's what ayahuasca (aka yage) is.

Plus various mushrooms and other psychoactive stuff, depending on the preferences of the curandeiro/a (shaman) and the intended outcome.

It absolutely depends on the anti-depressant.

SSRIs, do not mix.

NDRIs, lots of people report they're fine.

Hopefully we'll get better data on what other chemicals are okay to mix as these things slowly become permitted to be the subjects of study.

It is worth investigating with caution the option of using recreational drugs alongside antidepressant medication.

I take the SSRI Fluoxetine (Prozac) and have tried numerous psychedelic drugs while on that prescription drug. Before doing so I checked with my psychiatrist who did not believe there would be a great risk.

My experience has generally been that psychedelics work (with the exception of MDMA) and there are no drawbacks to using them while on an SSRI. Of course, psychedelics do have risks and educated, responsible use is appropriate.

What I've heard is that they work. But that you need higher doses than you would need if you weren't taking an SSRI.

I had an experience of total amnesia on LSD once. After a few minutes (objective, by a wall clock) of time-dilation experience (felt like 8 or 10 hours passing), I wandered upstairs and laid down on the bed. Again, a few minutes of closed-eye visuals that felt like hours passed, and when I opened my eyes, I had absolutely no idea who I was, even down to my name, where I lived, nothing. The only thing I could say was "I exist," without being able to qualify that in any way at all, and by staring at the room around me, "I'm in a room, seems to be in a city." Very, very strange experience. Suddenly, no more visuals, but it took the next few hours for details about myself, my hobbies, my work, etc., to start filtering back in.

Huh.

Did you take any other drugs?

I've experienced stuff like that at high LSD dosages, but it wasn't unpleasant. In fact, I liked it. It's what I meant by "ego death".

That is, there's no awareness that an "I" exists. There's just stuff happening. Inside, outside, all the same. Just stuff.

And then gradually, there's this internal dialog that starts talking about all the stuff. That is, consciousness, what I'm calling ego aka "I".

With marijuana during LSD peaking, that happens abruptly. With sometimes considerable anxiety.

That sounds scary af

I've had modern anesthesia for surgery twice in my life, and that seems to operate mostly by temporarily eliminating your ability to form memories. I found that "scary af" even though it certainly worked as expected.

I had this on alcohol + an unhealthy dose of psilocybin, apart from the difference where the only thing I could think was "I don't even know what 'exist' means". Scary but luckily I had some close friends that were comforting me throughout the experience.

For the most part though, my small experiments (LSD, mushrooms, DMT) have had a very positive and borderline revolutional effect on my outlook on life. Only time I've had negative experiences have been on mushrooms, both LSD and DMT have always been positive.

Does it cause any of the anxiety that marijuana can when taken at a small dose? I mean the LSD.

Sometimes if I get too high I get a decent amount of anxiety. Always wanted to try LSD or Shrooms but worried something like that may happen. Generally it comes from me feeling a strange sensation in my body which leads to a slight bit of panic. Or if I get really high I just don’t feel there entirely.

Always thought about taking LSD or Shrooms with some CBD incase I get a bit of anxiety.

Marijuana can cause feelings of anxiety because it increases your heart rate and the sensitivity to the feeling of your heat beating, which many people's brains interpret as anxiety.

LSD doesn't have this physiological effect though. It's more accurate to say that LSD will amplify whatever you're already feeling or thinking. If you take acid and feel anxious, it can spiral out of control and feel much more intense. On the flip side, if you're feeling peaceful then it will be a calm, happy journey with no feelings of anxiety whatsoever.

LSD does cause anxiety for many, often at the beginning of the trip. I know when it's kicked in because I get a big rush of anxiety that slowly fades over time. So I wouldn't recommend it to people with an uncontrolled anxiety disorder. (If you can control your anxiety, it can be great and quite therapeutic.)

A friend of mine kept an escape hatch dose of Valium in order to stop the action of things became too intense. I don’t believe the safety net was ever employed, and perhaps simply having the option helped keep some of those feelings at bay.

While I don't think I would confuse the sensation with anxiety, it kind of breeds anxiety. I always feel my heart beat, both from the chest, blood vessels and by small "muscle spasms" throughout my body, is there any substance, preferably legal, that can subdue this to some degree?

I'm not having high pressure or high resting pulse and it's so severe that, while not externally visible, causes for example a squeaky bed to squeak in rhythm with my heart beat.

I've had a prescription for Atomoxetin and it had some "body calming" effect but in some sense amplified the aforementioned effect.

I get similar effects, but a simple aspirin seems to subdue them :)

Marijuana that is like 1:1 CBD:THC or similar seems to help a lot for me. Keeps me from getting freaked out over sensations from my body.

Have you tried meditation? It sounds like something neutral is happening to you and you interpret it as being bad. If you meditate regularly it will change how you relate to it and many other things in positive transformative ways.

If someone winds up in the ER for a bad trip, a benzodiazepine is often used. That’s not legal to obtain without a prescription, but well, neither are mushrooms.

Yeah generally what happens is if I get some tightness in my chest, or a muscle cramp in my back, or pressure from like a bed or a couch pushing against me, if I smoke too much I have a tendency to interpret that as something wrong with me, not that I just have a cramp cause I’m sitting funny and a muscle got tight.

Do shrooms not have this physiological effect as well? Or just LSD that lacks it?

Depends largely on set and setting. Set - your mental state going into the trip and your personality type. Setting - the surroundings and people around you. You want to have someone to take care of you in case you have a bad trip.

I think you’ll be fine.

Anecdotal:

I get very anxious from marijuana. Somewhat manic even. I hate the feeling. I’m generally not a stranger to anxiety in life.

I don’t get anxious from LSD. I _have_ felt anxiety on it that I had been repressing, felt it kind of wash over, but it was ... useful. Not difficult. I knew what it was. I wasn’t lost in it. It wasn’t like being swallowed by the uncomfortable anxiety from marijuana that kind of takes over or drives.

And, well, I think a low LSD dose actually helped me resolve a thread of anxiety I had had since I was a child. An permanent and obsessive safety-seeking walk down an endless tree of decisions and judgement. Kind of a background thread. I kind of ... found it again? Had forgotten it was there? And could revisit it and ... know to stop. “Just stop judging”, i.e. judging the situation. And it felt like I could. It still feels like something was let go of. But idk!; Anecdotal!

There are studies that show that when starting with low doses, then very few people get anxious. Other studies show that when people _do_ get anxious, there are still lasting benefits to well being. As I understand it. There’s a decent seeming summary of this on http://tripsafe.org

Have you done shrooms? Wondering how shrooms work on someone who can get anxiety from weed.

Not the poster, but I had to stop smoking weed because of anxiety and paranoia. I have also taken magic mushrooms in a variety of doses, up to 7g dried, and have not experienced any anxiety or paranoia like I did with weed. I had one magic mushroom experience that started out as a really bad trip, but I was able to manage the anxiety and ride it out until halfway through, when it became a wonderful, uplifting, euphoric experience. Contrast that to that one time I did a dab and had a panic attack and couldn't do anything about it.

I have to disagree. While weed certainly can and does induce anxiety on occasion it is no where near as intense as magic mushroom trips. It’s not on the same level.

A mushroom trip can leave you feeling refreshed regardless but if you have a bad trip it may expose you to your deepest and darkest fears and become a terrifying nightmarish experience that weed couldnt induce if you tried.

The horror of a bad a trip didn’t necessarily teach me anything other than to respect mushrooms much more than weed.

I have had friends say the same. There is no comparison of the paranoia from weed vs the absolute horror of a bad trip.

I feel that people who say there is havent really done a lot of either to know the difference.

It's very dose dependent.

"At a dosage of 1.6 grams in a therapeutic clinical environment, we might expect 0% of people to experience some extreme fear, for an average of around 1 minute of strong anxiety, and we might expect around ~45% to report a persisting positive increase in mood from this dosage assuming they had first tried 0.8 grams, and then 1.6 grams5"

Via https://tripsafe.org/how-to-take-shrooms/#start-small

Based on studies: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27578767 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3308357/table/T... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3308357/

>> The horror of a bad a trip didn’t necessarily teach me anything other than to respect mushrooms much more than weed.

Give it time. It can take a decade of reflection to untangle/parse.

> I feel that people who say there is havent really done a lot of either to know the difference.

I don't know why you are dismissing my experience like that, or why you think that I do not have a lot of experience. Have you ever had a panic attack? Anxiety and paranoia are something I would get consistently from weed. I never felt the same anxiety, and never felt paranoia, on mushrooms. I never had a panic attack from mushrooms. Almost every psychedelic trip I take (between 50-60 so far) has a range of negative aspects, but I am able to better control myself, something that is not the case with marijuana. I have experienced terror on both mushrooms and LSD, and I was able to keep it together and turn it around every time. FWIW, I also prefer to do relatively large doses (3-5 grams mushrooms, 2-7 hits of LSD).

I have, and they don't have any similar anxiety-inducing effects on me. On the contrary mushrooms reduce anxiety for me.

A friend did have a very anxious trip - it's possible. However it was topical for him. An introspection into deep issues of security and control, and probably a too high dose for that occasion in his life, with not much experience. But he's fine after!

The psilocybin family's effect is imo a bit more "fantastically bewildering" than LSD. In a sense like old fairytales are sometimes curiously and bewildering to a child. (Comfortably bewildering!) It's hard to put into words. It's a place of beauty. It can be scary if you're an anxious type (like I am myself) and go in a bit fast. (Haven't had an anxious experience myself though.) BUT it doesn't have to be scary or uncomfortable even if bewildering - and usually isn't except in exceptional cases - and doesn't occur with low starting doses afaik, there are still lasting benefits even if you get anxious (iow it is processing), it passes, and the interesting thing is that you're somehow always fine if you let go. A kind and insightful tripsitter is all the insurance I would need I think.

It's really interesting and really hard to explain. Maybe check out the studies and study protocols. Plenty of stuff on http://maps.org – As an example, I believe it has been shown that psilocybin mushrooms strongly reduce anxiety in terminal cancer patients. In a lasting way. I cannot imagine a more trapped and anxious state than terminal cancer. So even id there is anxiety while under the influence, it seems to mean something.

I also get (mild) anxiety from weed but LSD gives me a nice, relaxed, "everything is great" feeling. Shrooms are very similar, though I get more introspective and depressed unless I'm somewhere nice. I don't like doing LSD/shrooms in my flat or in crowded places, because they bring me down. I'll need to try on a beach or in a forest next time.

There is no comparison between paranoia from weed and a bad trip from mushrooms/lsd.

One can leave you permanently mentally scarred and the other will make you paranoid for a few hours.

I have stoner friends and lsd/mushroom friends. Some of the latter are still dealing with issues today from a single bad experience from a trip they had years ago. I cannot say the same of my stoner friends.

I never had a _really_ bad trip, but I some some things which felt quite evil to me up to the point of pure existential crisis which stayed for some time.

I have always gotten anywhere between no and way-to-much anxiety when using pot, just depends on quantity, setting, etc. I prefer doing it alone, in small amounts. If I'm going to get stoned it's almost definitely alone.

Psychedelics are the same, for me, times like ten. Fortunately I handle it relatively well, and I just let it ride as "part of the experience" when I trip. Usually the uncomfortable parts go away after the peak, and then it's just awesome for hours. The peak is amazing in its own ways too, but there is (for me) no doubt a have anxiety/body buzz that is just uncomfortable as all get-out.

How do you define a reasonable dose, and are you speaking from a single experience?

Asking this due to wildly different subjective experiences.

I'm referring to a single 1cm^2 paper tab; of course the contents can vary due to the unregulated effects of prohibition. This is just not enough to induce strong visual hallucinations and Hunter S. Thompson type experiences. There has also been a recent interest in micro-dosing (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/07/style/microdosing-lsd-aye...) though this seems extremely difficult to procure in ways that I'd trust, I keep my eyes open.

I've experienced that with some strains of marijuana as well, a highly enhanced and clear perception of everything around me.

Absolutely, sativa, that was how I described it to friends. It's just remarkable to have that same positive feel of THC that lasts for 12 hours without the downsides of THC....plus the sensory + imaginative + dissociating qualities mentioned above, very good experience for me.

I'm not sure I would describe an LSD high as having mental clarity... trying to solve simple problems while on LSD can be very hard. There is a lot of clarity after the high though - the next several days.

To me, the most stunning hallucination, during LSD, was the total confusion of my senses. A specific flower was in bloom at the time, and my mind confused it’s smell with the colour purple. It was the strangest experience. Smelling colour... There is no way to describe it in words.

Even though this episode was decades ago, I still, kind of, experience the scent of that flower as the colour purple.

Your experience is known as synesthesia [1], and while not common, it can be found in people naturally and under certain conditions (like drugs).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia

There is also the fact that many things we perceive as senses are actually knowledge. We may think we see a red door when in fact we just know the door is red.

It’s possible your OP was noticing that a certain smell makes him know a thing is purple. Under normal circumstances he would just perceive PURPLE and think he was seeing. But on drugs he might perceive that his nose was also alerting him of PURPLE in the flower.

I haven't tried to meditate in a long time, but my understanding of the process was, setting aside mysticism and tradition, you just take a mental concept and you focus on it and every time your mind starts drifting you return to it.

So, I've heard that people make a big deal about choosing a mantra, but my thinking was it can be anything, and somehow I got into the habit of visualizing a blank field of a particular color. The nice thing about focusing on a color was that if my visual imagination distracted me, I could concentrate on "seeing" the color, while if I was imagining words or sounds, I could focus on the name of the color too. So it was like having an object to focus on that had all the different angles available.

I'm not sure I've never experienced synaesthesia, but I'm pretty sure I haven't been perceiving smells or sounds as having color recently.

Set and setting are paramount. A depressant can behave as a stimulant in a particular setting and vice versa (for example alcohol at a sporting event).

In certain settings psychedelic experiences are even possible without any chemical ingestion. For example on meditation retreats and ultramarathons.

So I don't think it's incorrect to call psychedelics a super placebo. The mental states they bring you to are entirely achievable without their use, albeit with far greater effort.

I'm not sure that's alcohol acting as a stimulant so much as alcohol removing mental barriers that prevent people from acting in a certain way. The depressant effect in fact helps to moderate the worst impulses for most people. Which is why drinks like Four Loco that combine a stimulant with alcohol end up being more dangerous than expected. Not only do you lose your "that's a dumb idea, I shouldn't do it" part of your brain, but you also have the energy to act on the impulse.

Psilocybin has known physiological affects on the body and on the brain. We see very clearly differences in how the brain functions on psilocybin.

It's absolutely not a placebo. That, or the definition of the word is being stretched such that all meaning is lost.

Placebos also have known physiological effects on the brain and there are clear differences when taking a pink placebo vs a blue one: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...

This is not to downplay the effects of psychadelics - I've taken plenty and of course the psychoactive effects are undeniable. But the effects are from far more than just the chemicals. For example smoked DMT hallucinations are very different than Ayahuasca, despite the two being the same chemical.

Hmm, I see what you are saying. I'd like to see a comparison between the effects of established placebos on the brain versus psilocybin. My hunch is that the mechanisms are quite different, but maybe there are some interesting similarities.

> In my personal experiences with psychedelics, these drugs remove mental heuristics, they allow the mind to think unimpeded by usual thought patterns, and simply accept raw data as it comes in.

I like "removing mental heuristics" as a good way of describing what is happening at the physical level. Articulating (or, communicating with high fidelity) what happens at the experiential and emotional levels is much more tricky.

An analogy I would draw is, imagine or recall how you may have felt during a major event (usually negative), say the death of a loved one, or the ending of an important romantic relationship, or imagine how you might feel if you are on your death bed, reviewing your choices and actions throughout your life....do you have any regrets, would you have done anything different if you had it to do all over again, etc. Imagine the feeling of clarity of thought, and deep intellectual and emotional appreciation of the gravity of the situation involved in such experiences.

This is how (but only in part) I would describe my experiences with psychedelics. Of course each person experiences these things in different ways, but despite such differences, extremely deep profoundness is an extremely common takeaway.

A simpler explanation, I would say that it kind of "shocks me into reality". And you may think you know what that means, but if you haven't experienced it, you really don't. Even I don't fully appreciate the meaning of what I'm saying at this very moment; I am largely going on faith, based on a very low fidelity memory of the experiences - such is the strange, ineffable nature of these medicines.

Luckily, while it seems difficult to see into (remember) one's experiences in that world, the opposite is not true - when under the influence of psychedelics, my experience is that I can experience kind of a simultaneous existence of two states of mind: that of clarity of thought (normal biases due to heuristics largely removed), but also clear (if not clearer) memory of thoughts and emotions related to specific scenarios in the normal world. This seems to facilitate for a very productive self-help scneario, the so-called "five years of therapy or psychoanalysis in a few hours" effect that some people speak of.

I should also note that I am speaking of experimentation in the medium dose range of psilocybin. While there are other things to be discovered at the higher doses, for my purposes medium dose trips seem to be much more beneficial. YMMV.

Your comment really resonates with me and wholeheartedly mirrors my own experiences with psychedelics. Of the lysergamides, I've taken LSD, 1P-LSD, LSA, AL-LAD, and my favorite: ALD-52--IMHO, the Cadillac of psychedelic drugs. It's a close analog of LSD with fewer "body load" effects, almost zero nausea, and a less scatterbrained headspace--sparkling clear with beautiful visuals and an uncanny tool for productive introspection.

Set has so much to do with the experience--though I've had fun with it out with friends at a bar in dark of winter, its true power is sorely wasted unless I'm in nature, especially when my wife and I are taking it together.

I know with zero uncertainty that it acts as almost a forceful, powerful therapy with even a modest amount of mental input--it's as if your brain is forced into a state of deep meditation where you can't help but improve your mental station (barring the notably rare "bad trip"--though I've taken it with so many people, I do believe it happens less frequently with ALD-52 on account of its mental clarity).

Some of the best days of my life have been while tripping on ALD-52, wandering wild goat trails, exploring the vibrant innards of canyons, weaving among mountain pines.

RE your experiences with water, I've had the same experiences. One of the most memorable moments of my life was returning from a short high desert hike, to sink to the bottom of a salt water pool, look skyward, and watch the desert sun dance and play with colors on the water's surface. I've never looked at water the same since. I'm cheerfully captivated with its beauty in a way I probably haven't since I was a child.

Which brings me to my final observation. The effects of psychedelics, perhaps owning to their serotonergic effects or their disabling of the default mode network re-imbue you with a wonder in the world around you that has slowly, inconspicuously eroded little-by-ever-so-little each year into adulthood. Year by year, the world becomes more bland, less exciting, less, well, full of wonder. Remember those magical memories of childhood? Perhaps running towards the ocean, arriving at summer camp, having a picnic in the park, diving to the bottom of the pool, playing with a new toy on Christmas, the excited anticipation before a sleepover, your first crush? The magnitude of those feelings are often so muted or jaded as an adult. The right psychedelics can bring those feelings rushing back, unfettered, unadulterated, pure. Suddenly you realize how much of that you've lost, while simultaneously getting to feel them again in full force. Some of that stays with you during sober times, which is lovely. Dosing periodically keeps that magic alive in you--what a joy, a gift.

Humans have taken psychedelics as part of daily lives for tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of years. The shaman is little more than an elder trip-sitter and therapist. Our highly complex brains have evolved alongside such chemicals and experiences to help define meaning and seek happiness and it's a crying shame that waves of prohibition have stifled that nigh fundamental human experience. It makes me happy to watch that damage slowly be undone with news like this.

Nice post. Wish I knew how to obtain some (legally or at least safely/discreetly).

When Albert Hoffman was put on trial in the late 1960s for LSD manufacture, his defense was that he was actually caught with ALD-52 (his discovery). He lost on account that he synthesized LSD first as a precursor.

Urban lore has it that some of the "really good acid" in the '60s under the moniker "Orange Sunshine" was actually ALD-52. This is heavily debated and we'll probably never know for sure how much, if any, ALD-52 was circulating.

Most interesting is that even though he was incarcerated, for whatever reason, the DEA never got around to scheduling ALD-52. It's technically still legal.

In order to combat designer drugs, the government put in place the Federal Analog Act which means you could be thrown in jail if you're caught with a previously-undocumented or never-scheduled drug that the courts find is similar enough to a scheduled one. However, this has only been invoked a handful of times (only 2 I can find) and would likely only ever been used against distributors. Bottom line, a recreational user is extremely, extremely unlikely to be nailed on this law.

Lucky for you, there's this massive, above-ground lab in Europe called Lizard Labs https://lizardlabs.eu/ and produce lab grade products. They might as well be the Eli Lily of gray market psychedelic drugs. You can't buy from them directly but they openly list retailers selling their products. If you live in Canada, Europe, or the US, there's a retailer that will ship to you super discretely through the mail. No tor required.

Here's their list: https://lizardlabs.eu/retailers/

I've never had an order seized, lost, or scammed. I mean, it's paper--nearly impossible to detect. People that have lost shipments have generally just had the item quietly seized by customs with no further repercussions. I've used theindoleshop.com multiple times.

Cheers.

Hoffman was never arrested, I think you are thinking of Owsley. Hoffman was never a US citizen and I don't recall him ever getting into trouble.

As for the Analog Act, the UK's version is presumably watertight (it effectively bans smelling flowers, but not poppers because gay MPs objected to that being banned), but has not been tested AFAIK.

I think you're right, apologies. I always get the OG psychedelic guys mixed up in my head.

Story is still mixed up ..

Apparently Hoffman also did invented ALD-25, but the failed defense strategy was from Tim Scully, who operated a lab and distributed orange sunshine for california ..

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALD-52

Re:oh-4-fucks-sake

The website notes that what they have are "NOT for human consumption". Is it safe or is it different than what one would use for recreational purposes?

"NOT for human consumption" is a CYA clause so the seller can maintain some level of plausible deniability if the feds ever do try to come down on them. Rest assured, this is lab-grade, high quality stuff. I think they release lab results. DEA: "This fancy new drug looks like another scheduled drug." Seller: "It's not a drug; it's just a compound that we sell as a curiosity so get fucked."

This may hold at least some water in court.

It's akin to the age-old headshop rule of calling bongs "tobacco pipes" and kicking anyone out that calls them bongs.

Is there a reliable place to read more about the chems? I'm enticed but also a bit confounded by all the names.

Your personal experiences sound very interesting and I don't mean to detract at all from the effect they've had on you and many other people. However, I was a neuro Phd student and did many 'default mode network' studies using fMRI and it is -very- early to be making claims about the nature and/or purpose of this network, or how it's perturbed by any experience: psychedelic or not. The level of temporal and spatial resolution of data gathering of this and other brain networks is entirely too coarse to make legitimate inferences. At this point in the literature it is a very good story with a few compelling examples but not nearly complete enough to make real claims.

Is there a way to induce this feeling without the aid of psychedelics or breathwork?

Through certain yogic practices and breathing techniques. But honestly nothing compares to a psychedelic trip imo.

"Here's a mechanism that brings these results"

"How can I have these results without loading on the mechanism?"

I can understand drug aversion but what's the aversion to breathwork, which is cheaper and shouldn't carry stigma?

Take a look at Kundalini Yoga

Sam Harris states that you can achieve this enhanced selflessness via meditation (where we think of the "self" or "the ego" as that sort of "conductor" that the psychedelics turn off). However, while meditation is like a sailboat, psychedelics are like a rocket: both will take you places, but one much more quickly and with much more risk.

In my limited experience (2 trips) there was no negative aspect to psychedelics. There were things that were already negatively valenced, like riding in a car or visiting a friend's messy house briefly, however I had no inkling of a bad trip or any scary/demonic/overwhelming sensations.

Sam Harris & Yuval Noah Harari answer a question about "peak" meditative experiences, and set them in context with psychedelic experiences in the segment starting at 1:27:20:

https://samharris.org/podcasts/138-edge-humanity/

I just did a 10 day silent meditation retreat and there were points where the feeling had definite similarities to psychedelics. Hard work but worth it. I have a feeling that the meditation retreat went deeper than psychedelics did for me personally.

>> they allow the mind to think unimpeded by usual thought patterns, and simply accept raw data as it comes in

> Is there a way to induce this feeling without the aid of psychedelics or breathwork?

Depends on what you means by "induce". (Usually) many, many years of practice (if ever)... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kensh%C5%8D

Meditation is said to be able to give similar experiences. But of course require a lot more work.

Some years ago I wanted to give it a shot so I tried one of those meditation exercises, where the goal is to have your mind calm to the point of not having any conscious thoughts and only experiencing sensations. Was stubborn about it and did it for maybe 3? hours continuously until I actually started having some success.

I can definitely report reaching an altered-state experience afterward that mirrors some of the things described here. The intensity of everything was dialed way, way up, in a way I had kind of forgotten was possible but I'm pretty sure I experienced as a kid. I don't think there's a way to put it in words that's comparable to experiencing it but it was not a subtle effect at all.

Abstractly, say everything has an "interestingness" value, and certain things would be near the top like a great movie or book. It was like there was a dial for this value that just scaled everything, and it was dialed up high enough where just the way light & shadow interacted on some things was as interesting as a great movie. Everything was super interesting. Kind of like a reverse burnout state, where maybe nothing is interesting. The effect lasted the rest of the day.

Anyway it wasn't easy at all to get in that state and I don't think I made a serious effort again. But I'd definitely recommend giving it a shot to anyone who's curious. It wasn't like there was any complex technique, it was basically just close your eyes, focus attention on breath and let go of all conscious thoughts. Personally the last part was the hard part.

I wonder if it gets easier with time so you can reach that state in 30 min or something instead of struggling hard for 3 hours. If that's the case maybe I should try seriously practicing it since having control of that dial would be pretty useful.

all thing yoga or meditation related adviced above are mainly focused on breathing basically, so any advice in that sense require at least breathing in some specific ways. Maybe electroinduction in the brain can achieve similar conditions. You aid to brain phisiological alterations, so it's quite difficult play with it without touching the ways it works from external eg with drugs, sugar levels, oxygen levels, electromagnetic induction (I'd consider co2 levels a drug for example)

Everyone is saying meditation etc, I would disagree. A major part is the ability to put this experience in motion/action which I find counterintuitive to meditation. Quite frankly no, I do not think it is replicable to be able to turn off the filters in which are responsible for keeping the raw data to a manageable level, that is much different than increasing your sensitivity through deprivation. Alteration of brain chemistry may be simulated in the future, but there is no replacement today.

"These drugs suppress activity of the default mode network of the brain, which is a sort of "conductor" of the brain, which chooses which "instruments" to prioritize and how to allocate the train of thought"

That's interesting, but it sounds like a plausible description of how schizophrenia works too, maybe even one that I've read before, and yet my impression is that "natural" psychosis is different.

that's pretty much it, except if you're on LSD at some point it will stop.

It's pretty common to have one or two episodes of psychosis and then not again. Selection bias and all that. Anyone that doesn't have a severe chronic problem, you're not going to be aware of, but it's reasonable to assume there are more mild cases than severe cases of almost any condition. For that matter, it's a definitional issue - people can appear crazy temporarily for almost infinite reasons, and if it doesn't reoccur, even doctors aren't going to call it schizophrenia. You go into a hospital appearing to be stark raving mad, they are going to test you for drugs and call it "schizophreniform" if they can't find any.

Meditation also affects the activity of the default mode network. This is a fundamental network that plays a huge role is much of our brain's activities, so saying 2 different things have an affect on the network doesn't mean that those impacts are necessarily similar.

Thank you for the thoughtful response, this really is encouraging for those on the fence about trying. Might take a trip to Amsterdam soon....

The point is they do something, but for that something to be most likely good/positive, you also need therapy, which if you want, you can interpret as a "trip sitter" or whatever the phrase is.

Y'all aren't disagreeing.

> but for that something to be most likely good/positive, you also need therapy

I hear ideas like this (and "In other words, you would need to use the drugs in combination with therapy to obtain good results") repeated all the time, but I'm curious where they come from.

If one spends any time whatsoever in enthusiast communities, the overwhelming sentiment is that these compounds are incredibly helpful even when used alone. This is not to say that individual results wouldn't be even better with therapy, or that there aren't some people who have negative experiences, but these being true also in no ways logically implies that significant benefits cannot be realized by independent usage.

The precise answer to these and other questions, at this current point in time, is: we don't know, with extremely high certainty. But this doesn't mean we don't know anything. Reality is independent of man's understanding (peer reviewed studies) of it - a tree falling in the forest does not require the presence of a scientist.

While it's always a good idea to exercise caution, I suspect advice like "do not use these substances except under professional guidance" is likely more harmful than helpful. It will be years if not decades before formal treatments are available, for many people that may be too late, not to mention the exorbitant price tags these treatments come at. I am more of the mind that people educate themselves on the topic, proceed with caution, work with those who have experience, and proceed slowly and with caution, starting with low dosages and working your way up over time. There is very little trustworthy evidence that I know of indicating there is any kind of substantial risk, and even then that has to be weighed against not just the benefits, but also the risk of doing nothing.

Enthusiast communities are probably not the most objective group of folks, so I'd take what they have to say with a grain of salt.

Of course, but be careful not to make the mistake of assuming that members in those communities are homogeneous. There's certainly no shortage of woo-woo style thinking, but there are also enthusiasts who think about it very seriously and analytically. These same people will also tell you that anything they say should be taken with a grain of salt. These are the people who should be mainly listened to.

Regardless, I fail to see any evidence that supports the assertion that you also need therapy, that you cannot benefit substantially without it. Those who have literally no first hand experience with psychedelics are not exactly objective either, but it sure doesn't stop them from confidently passing out advice.

So if I found any evidence at all, you'd agree you were wrong? Seems pretty strong if a stance to take...

My emphasis is on the word need. I'd happily consider any evidence you've seen.

My emphasis is on the word "risk" (captured in the literal words "most likely"). It's risky to go without a guide, though it's not "needed" in the sense of a 100% failure rate.

Honestly, the fact that you assumed others were talking about "have a guide or 100% failure" is disingenuous on your part.

> and really ensure your mindset ("set") is positive and open

Everyone says this and it's little more than bro science. So if you have a bad experience from the drugs, it was because you weren't in a positive headspace? Sounds like No True Scotsman.

>So if you have a bad experience from the drugs, it was because you weren't in a positive headspace?

You can always test out this hypothesis by doing a tab of LSD from the same batch twice while controlling for your headspace. One day, you do it with a positive headspace, and another day you do it with a negative one. If you had a great experience the first time and a bad experience the second time, clearly the headspace alignment made the difference.

Yes, this kind of testing isn't as rigorous as it would have been for a legitimate scientific trial (which I bet we will see in the future as the research into the area accelerates), but imo it is more than just a No True Scotsman backed by broscience.

And of course, no one says that a negative headspace is the only reason for someone to have a bad experience, there are others for sure. For example, certain people with predisposition for schizophrenia probably should abstain as well. AFAIK psychedelics won't cause a schizophrenia in an otherwise healthy person, but I heard it might kick off an early onset if you were going to get a schizophrenia in a few years without any psychedelics anyways.

"headspace" doesn't mean anything

You don’t understand anything when you read or hear the word?

Yes, it does. It's quite literally in the dictionary: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/headspace

Ok have fun performing psychological experiments on your brain using "informal" merriam webster definitions

You're just being pedantic and grasping at straws. Whether or not we're using the scientific term for an individual's mindset (which is not quantifiable to a high degree of precision but that doesn't meant it's not quantifiable at all, you can at least reduce most 'measurements' to a binary range) is irrelevant to its significance. The comment you replied to specifically said it would be hard to do a rigorous study of.

ok, you can replace that word with "mood and the general train of thoughts at the moment". Happier now?

Everyone knows what it means, and it is way shorter than what I have in the quotes. Pretending it isn't a legitimate word (despite it having an actual entry in the dictionary) doesn't make you look more impressive.

The thing about that is it's hard to not have anecdotal evidence about a phenomenon when the item of study is an illegal drug. That doesn't mean there is no effect though and this one seems very logical. Also not exactly the same but you don't need to try it with schedule one psychedelics this can be noticed with things like alcohol

"Headspace" is presumably legal? And it's not a defined medical or scientific concept.

Mood, Affect, setting... I think these are well defined terms. That is what's meant by headspace. However it's not legal to test this in conjunction with illegal drugs, even scientifically they can't get approval in many cases.

Genuinely, there is a reason why it is called a "trip". You either need enough experience to guide yourself or you need a tour guide to make sure you have a good experience.

One of the first times we did LSD with my friends in college, in the end we all were thinking "this is why they call it a trip. we all went somewhere together and came back".

Set and setting matter a lot and it isn't bro-science. You're talking about drugs that take your mental chatter and external stimuli and allow them to flow freely. Anything bad or anxiety producing will get amplified and without the proper experience, it might spiral out of control.

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