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Comment by throwaway713 | Hacker News Reader

I agree with his theory, but what I find particularly interesting is that I think most people do not have an obsessive interest in anything at all. And as someone who has obsessive interests in a lot of things (some “useful”, some not), that seems really odd to me: how can you just be satisfied to go to work, come home, watch TV, and go to bed each day? (Not saying that’s the wrong way to live, just saying it is surprising to someone who isn’t that way). But I guess the obsessive ones are really the weird ones in society, in terms of the fraction of the population they constitute.

My problem lately has been acquiring enough free time to be obsessive. I really miss the days of playing piano for 12 hours straight or tinkering around with reverse engineering the OS of some MP3 player. And my wife is pregnant for the first time, so like PG mentions, I wonder (but suspect) how that is going to change things. I have a very intense dread of losing myself in the necessary mundanity of life; I am more financially comfortable than ever, but I also feel less like myself than I ever have. Going to meetings, making dinner, creating to-do lists — these don’t fit my personality at all, but I have to do them because they need to be done.

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Frankly most people obsess about things like finding a mate, playing video games, collecting comics, politics, reading books, watching & discussing TV shows & movies, social websites (such as this one), sex, porn, fashion, sports, the social politics of work (as opposed to the work itself -- e.g. "The Office") and, of course, their kids. But none of these sorts of obsessions are likely to lead to fame or fortune.

I think it is the rare person who literally has no obsessive interests at all. Sounds rather sad and boring.

Many of my relatives seem to have no interests or hobbies. I mean sure, they watch TV and movies, but it's not like they are deeply interested in them, they serve more as pastimes. They don't have anything they are actually passionate about.

Most people I meet seem to simply survive on instinct and mimicking others around them.

I find it really refreshing when I discover that someone is passionate about something, no matter what it is.

The possibility exists that I could just be a bad interviewer though.

> The possibility exists that I could just be a bad interviewer though.

Making small talk with people I have this thought constantly. Is the format of small talk what's preventing us from having a discussion about what you're passionate about or do they lack a passion?

Interests aren't necessarily obsessions or passions.

I think it's rare to be obsessed with any of those things, but common to be superficially interested. For instance many people will just watch a TV show and enjoy it, and maybe even rewatch it a few times, without knowing all of the actors or writers or how the production of the show worked, etc etc, while you would expect an obsessed person to know at least some of these things, because they are compelled to find out at much as they possibly can about the object of their obsession.

Yeah that’s a good point. Almost everyone watches TV. But people like say Jimmy Kimmel watched TV so closely that they came to understand its underlying mechanisms.

What makes people laugh? What entertains them and makes them less lonely? Who are the important people in the business? You could watch TV for years and never ask yourself those questions.

After all there’s no real school for TV. Many people on TV now studied it by simply paying closer attention. There are LA insiders for sure who can watch their parents, but there are also people like Letterman who was from a small town in Indiana.

As another example, a lot of UFC fighters also grew up watching the nascent sport in the 90’s. They learned how it worked simply by paying more attention, practicing, and being more obsessive about it than the millions of other fans. There’s no school for it since it was a rapidly developing martial art. YouTube has apparently permanently changed the state of practice in Jiu-Jitsu.

I think its fairly common for teenagers (and some not-teenagers) to be obsessed with sex. Many people seem to be obsessed with politics. I've met many adults who I assume are obsessed with work since they spend so much time doing it.

You’ve just listed off a dozen obsessive interests, and that’s the problem — you can’t have a dozen obsessive interests, there’s only enough room for one.

When I was twenty I could afford an obsessive interest in my studies. Now I’m in my late thirties I simply have too much going on.

On the upside, when I’m sixty (which is peak bus ticket collecting age) I can see how I will, finally free of the constraints of work and children, finally have time to obsess again. I hope I still have the mental agility to do it well, and that I don’t get sucked into some bus ticket vortex.

From the article, Newton had room for more than one.

> I agree with his theory, but what I find particularly interesting is that I think most people do not have an obsessive interest in anything at all.

I am not convinced that this is true. I think a lot more people are really interested or passionate about something than you may realize, but not all of them talk about those things to everyone. Alternatively, their passion might be what they do for a living.

So for instance a case of the former might be someone that has a very niche interest, so they have learned that in most cases talking about that thing does not lead to any interesting conversations.

Another possibility is that they might not view themselves as being particularly good at their area of interest (which may or may not be the case), so they don’t like to talk about it.

So for whatever reason, including the above or other reasons, you end up not learning about these interests that those people have when you just talk casually with them.

And as for the people that do it for a living, it could be that they have no interests outside of work, because work fulfills their passion. For example someone who is a really passionate salesperson, if they already truly derive meaning and joy from doing what they do at work, maybe they don’t need anything outside of work other than to relax and recover.

Lastly, another group of people I can think of are those that have interests that are very costly and they don’t have a high paying job. So most of the year they spend a lot of time at work and on the spare time they sit in front of the TV, or the computer and it sounds like they have no passion for anything but really they are spending a lot of time dreaming about the next trip they can afford to go on in the Himalayas or whatever, and when they sit at home they watch programs about skiing, and they read about skiing online and discuss it with others online, and maybe read magazines about it as well.

I’m not saying that everyone has something that they are deeply interested in, but I believe that more people do than one might realize.

I can vouch for the "do it for a living" route. Spent almost ten years obsessively tinkering with electronics. Started a career in electronics. Pretty much abandoned hobby electronics; I do it all day at work, get my enjoyment, and pursue more casual interests for fun. Although life still gets empty if it's just work/eat/sleep.

I have a hard time agreeing with this. In my experience people's single most interesting thing to talk about is themselves. Once you notice that, you see it everywhere. It's such a lure, it's almost irresistible. I've made it a habit to ask them a couple of open questions and then just let them have at it. In a few situations folks lost business with me simply because they were too preoccupied with talking about themselves to simply ask "so... how about you? what do you do?"

It follows that whenever someone has an obsession, it comes up naturally while they talk about themselves.

People answering questions does not imply that their favorite thing to talk about is themselves. It’s simply an easy venue to conversation when you don’t know the other person.

>People answering questions does not imply that their favorite thing to talk about is themselves.

Nor does what I said imply your assertion.

I don't think it follows. Obsession about a niche topic + good social sense = you're not likely to mention it during random conversations with regular people.

When you ask me open ended question and I am able to talk about that topic, I will talk about that topic. If people ask me about family I talk about family, if people ask me about work I talk about work and if they ask me about sport I talk about sport.

It has nothing to do with what I find most interesting to talk about. It has to do with me assuming that this is what you want to talk about, since you asked about it.

I also kind of expect the person I talk to make own pronouncements about the topic they started, without having to ask "what about you". When I am asking "what about you", it is usually admission that this is not going well, conversation feels one sided and I am desperately trying to make it two sided so I am not the asshole there.

Personally I don't often like to talk about my obsessions with random people.

I find that talking about them usually leads to a predictable surface-level conversation that I'm bound to find boring.

Usually it's only with other experts that I can have an interesting conversation about the details of something I'm very familiar with.

You'll come up for air around 3 and minor hobbies will re-emerge around 5. I would recommend finding some deeply informed and interesting podcasts on subjects you expect to be helpful in order to educate yourself passively during the early years.

And many parents we know (ourselves included) give up exercise. If at all possible, try to maintain some semblance of an exercise routine.

Simplest solution: if the traffic situation around you allows it get a bike. And use it for anything under 10 km or when you need to transport something heavy. Cheaper than the gym and far healthier, saves you money on w&t on your car as well.

Why is biking far healthier than the gym?

I think they just mean it's healthier than not biking to work.

That makes sense, I probably parsed it differently than the author intended.

Until you get hit by a car.

Best way to do that is bike to work.

Yeah, I commuted by bike until we had kids. Sadly, the preschool that we liked the most also wasn't easily bikable from the house. The kids now go to a school that is easily bikable, and it's a joy.

I do that now because I'm fortunate enough to live very close to work, but that can be really difficult for parents. If your commute time is too long then commute + work + commute can end up a longer span of time than the gap between breakfast and dinner for the kids. When I lived farther, I drove because that mattered more to me than missing meals with them.

My twins are 6 months. I've maintained 3x a week, hour long full body training sessions the entire time (and I get out for 2-3 10k runs a week and occasionally get out for a mountain bike ride, depending on how good of a deal I can make with my wife). I'm fortunate to work from home full-time, which means that I can get my workout in over lunch hour.

For people who aren't are so fortunate, I always recommend that they look into Kettlebell Simple & Sinister on Amazon from Pavel Tsatsouline (there's a new version, recently released, easy to read and very dense with information and incredible strength training insights).

Simple & Sinister is essentially a 20 minute, no nonsense, 100% legitimate strength training routine that can be done daily, even in combination with other training programs and workouts. Kettlebells take up essentially no space and if you buy a reputable brand you will have this strength training implement for the rest of your life.

> My twins are 6 months.

For what it's worth, that means that you're actually at an easier phase than you will be when the kids get older. Infants are time-consuming in many ways, but they also sleep a lot and have few external needs of their own.

When your kids stopping napping and start acquiring their own friends and activities, the time commitment goes up a lot, especially when they are still too young to do much for themselves.

Elementary age sort of plateaus: the amount of activities goes up, but they can take care of more of their own maintainance too. I don't know what middle school is like yet, but my hunch is that the time commitment starts going down when they become old enough to go to activities on their own.

Oh, for sure. It's already ramped up, month over month, just due to them napping less. I'm excited to see where it all takes us over the coming years. That said, a major factor in why I work full-time remote today is because I wanted to take control of my health and use my lunch hour to exercise. I don't plan on ever giving that up, but I know that's optimistic. I'd happily go back to S&S 6 days a week if that's where my life took me (again).

How do you handle progressive overload? Do you have a bunch of different kettlebells of various weights? Seems like that would defeat the space savings. Or do you cycle out the lower weights or put them in storage once you've progressed past them? Curious to see if I could make this work for me, as I also have time/space constraints.

This program "only" consists of 2 movements, the kettlebell swing and the turkish get-up. But it's deceptively challenging. Progressive overload with S&S is mainly in building up the swings and in perfecting the form of the TGU. Once you have mastery with a kettlebell of a certain size, you test yourself and move up to the next size. It used to have time requirements, in version 1, but that has been removed in the latest iteration.

Kettlebells, traditionally, jump in 4kg increments. So, on average, with this program, you start with a single 16kg kettlebell, and then move to a 20kg, on up to 32kg.

I have a lot of kettlebells... 2x12kg, 2x16kg, 2x20kg, 1x24kg, 1x28kg, 1x32kg, 1x36kg, 1x40kg. They have a small footprint. I leave them all in a corner in the garage and they take up very little space, maybe 3 square feet. I'm on a different (non-kettlebell) program right now. But, I am using the 32kg on days that are not my main training days for strength-endurance purposes (I like doing between 300 and 500 heavy swings a week).

Sorry for the brevity, but I wanted to respond. Hope it helps.

That's very helpful. Thanks!

I’ve said it before, but I’m in the best shape of my life now with two children because the YMCA has free childcare.

What separates piano and OS hscking from making dinner, for you? What is mundane versus interesting?

It seems to reduce the problem back to what might lead to a useful discovery versus what won't. But piano is likely in the latter category, given that its obsessed about so often over centuries. Maybe the time for OS hacking to lead to discoveries is on its way out, as well.

Obsessive cooking might be more likely to be fruitful, come to think of it. We have changing ideas about food production and nutrition; and more enabling technologies around for new ideas.

(I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with obsessing about things that won't lead to discoveries. They could be useful in a more mundane way, or be useless but still engaging.)

I think that's the whole point. It's not about what is interesting and what not, but what truly obsesses you. What OP means is that cooking is not something he feels obsessed about. It's great if you are obsessed about cooking and have 10 hours a day to practice your cooking. But most of us, wish we had more time to explore the topics we are deeply attracted to. If they make a difference, all the better.

That said many topics are deeply fascinating in their own ways, and we just haven't stopped & looked close enough to discover it.

Manufacturing fascination is a hard mental task, doubly so if you try to do it to find a substitute for something you're already fascinated in, but can't find time to pursue - you'll know you're trying to cheat yourself.

I highly recommend going obsessive with cooking. It pays dividends when you can cook at home and eat like a king. I found playing with Heston Blumenthal recipes and then diving into as many cook books as possible to be the best way to start.

Your fear is valid. One way I solved it (partly) is to hire help. Use your financial comfort to buy back your own time by paying someone else to do chores like cleaning, dishes etc. And the 1-2 hours per day that you'll save, now you can spend with your kid and/or on your interests.

> I have a very intense dread of losing myself in the necessary mundanity of life; I am more financially comfortable than ever, but I also feel less like myself than I ever have. Going to meetings, making dinner, creating to-do lists — these don’t fit my personality at all, but I have to do them because they need to be done.

You just articulated my worst fear, occasionally some aspect of it creeps into my life when society demands some "busy work" from me... each time it makes me feel like wanting to retreat into the wilderness to escape from society and enjoy nature and do things I actually find interesting.

Except simply surviving in a non-urban environment is even more mundane and exhausting.

oh absolutely, for prolonged escape if you don't take the basic technology of modern civilization with you, you will loose all your time again to keeping yourself clean, clothed, warm and fed. I you really want to escape I think the trick must be to live just close enough to reap the benefits of modern industry - but for me it is merely a desire or maybe a fantasy that seems more attractive on some days than others.

You can go to some small village in south America. Live on a beach or in mountains. It's so cheap that all you basic needs can be taken care of with 100-400$/month and you can dedicate yourself to the persuit of your hobby.

I think it'd be more accurate to say that most people haven't yet found something to be obsessively interested in.

Although the child prodigy is a popular image, I don't actually know anyone who's ended up doing the same thing all their life since they were young. People bounce around a lot before they hit something that clicks. Sometimes it's at 15, sometimes it's at 50.

Even people who have obsessive interests today first went through their boring phases, too.

> I am more financially comfortable than ever

Work part-time? I get 1-2 days off per week for projects (and house stuff) then in the evenings/weekends I actually have time and energy for playing with my child.

Plus, it's better for the environment than more work, more consumption.

Millions of people have obsessive interest in their family or in professional sports.

> Going to meetings, making dinner, creating to-do lists — these don’t fit my personality at all, but I have to do them because they need to be done.

Have you ever tried not doing things, and seeing what happens? A lot of things are quite frankly unnecessary in life.

FWIW, making to-do list is often a way of coping with inability to focus and hold coherent thoughts for longer periods of time in one's head. At least that's how I do this - especially now that I have a kid. I jot down lots of random throwaway todo lists for the day or week; otherwise, between the job, family and unwinding on HN, I'd essentially never do anything other than daily chores and "firefighting".

It’s not that bad. I just had twin girls and I’m still managing to draw for ~3 hours a day in between feeding and diaper changes. If you like your hobby enough you’ll find the energy and time somewhere ;P

I've got a new one too. My guitar follows me all around the house, and I've planted books in a bunch of different places for the in-between time. I'm curious to see how this evolves as the baby gets older.

I'm very new to having a kid but so far I've found it's helped focus my time more efficiently by getting better at multi-tasking, and then the remaining "interests" time is spent with a serious, no-time-to-waste approach.

Also, you might be surprised at what having a kid does to you, in a good way. Like PG mentions in his essay, once people have kids they tend to be their focus, and it's satisfying to guide them and see them grow.

Yeah, kid, family and relationships seems like the basic answer to "why aren't most people obsessed with obscure X".

The chances are your kid will take all your time when they're young and then probably won't share obsessive interest X when they get older.

Just as much with relationships - you can't be an appealing mate by being successful, well-balanced and well-adjusted. Or you can share interest X with you mate. But latter approach gives one 1/10000th as many people - not impossible but it's something to think about.

I think there are some portion of people who could find hobby X appealing but then, consciously or unconsciously think about these considerations and push themselves back to mainstream.

I would also like to say -- having a kid makes one realize how much time is wasted online reading reading reading. It's been a nice adjustment getting away from the internet.

Go look up what the average American or European media consumption is. It's difficult to see it as anything but an obsession. It's just that the obsession relates to things others are producing.

If you don't have time for your obsessive interest, then it's not really obsessive after all. A maximally obsessive person would have neglected distractions from his obsession.

I used to be obsessed with many different things during childhood, perhaps because I am an only child and had large chunks of time where I was in my own room, alone, as a child. I would do things like lay out a paper map of a city, and start tracing my fingers along the roads as if I was a bus driver, or pretending I had multiple estates. I would start documenting the statistics of my Pokemon card deck. Take apart my computer. Spend hours trying to create something significant from random Lego blocks. Make songs by humming into a cassette tape recorder. Even invented a language (very short-lived hobby).

Then puberty hit. I became more interested in making sure my hair and clothes were cool enough, so I could fit in, so I could attract my crush. I became much more addicted into the mainstream grooves of video games, such as League of Legends. I lost interest in random obsessions, and instead replaced it with a more artificial one governed by Riot Games or Blizzard, and the digital points/levels that I got in game.

Then I grew up. I am now working as a software developer, but don't even have much obsession for programming at all. I just don't see how someone can get excited about the intracacies of a programming language, because its so dry and boring. And I feel a bit ashamed for not being too interested in hacking together a MVP anymore, even though programming presents such a huge realm of possibility available to anyone at no barrier/cost to entry. Nowadays, whenever I have a slight interest in anything, the capitalistic worldview has polluted my thoughts by always triggering the thought: "but is this a viable business idea? Could I get recognition from others and provide value such that the market would compensate me?"

I would trade anything to get my childhood obsessions back, because I am living mostly like the repetitive 9-5er you describe.

Read about and in depth how to raise kids. There is a lot of good books how you can let kids become strong individuals instead of good at following instructions.

You will never be bored :p

Any advice?

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/nzsHQzsvwLw6g4pyE/review-sel...

My trip regarding this has been mostly Swedish content. Like this guy: (Grow, not obey) http://www.larshgustafsson.se/?p=1413 I don't see any of this book translated to English though.

He reflects upon his life as a doctor for mostly kids. How interactions with parents work out. How he hates methods and recipies to handle your kids, since that tends to distance yourself from the kid, use your instinct instead.

Another book I was really fascinated by was "Barn som bråkar" (Kids that fight) by Bo Heijskov: https://eng.hejlskov.se/books/ I think most books are a good read there. Mostly about how nothing can be solved by screaming/shouting/distancing. Accept that kids have their own mechanics that you need to appreciate and tend to. Angry kids are good, that means they love you enough to share their emotions. Now it is up to you as a guardian to control the structure around the kid to make it easier to exist and control itself.

Most likely I have missed tons of authors, but I strongly believe that if one follows the pattern of giving love to kids and not shout at them, things will be much easier, for both parent and kids. Reading about it and discussing it with ones partner is something that needs to be tended to all the time.

For me as a bonus dad/bonus grandad and dad I fill a lot of roles, I tend to do deep dives in all areas (tech, music, philosofy etc), reading more about the roles I fill was such a joy and time consuming.

To be fair I started out reading Bo Heilskov and then the site with soundbooks gave me the others.

This was a godsend: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/40873423-no-drama-discip...

As to answer the parent as well. Most books going forward is always a recommend after something like the book above.

There should be a site like parenting.com which lists all of these.

Kids is never at fault really, they just try their best with given tooling.

1) Your kid will determine how much free time you have. Some infants sleep 22 hours a day. Some sleep 4 hours a day. You can't know which you'll get.

2) Ruthless economizing & prioritizing of what's important to you. Combine activities, e.g. biking to work is commute, exercise, and possibly shower all-in-one.

> making dinner

That seemed an odd thing to include. Making food is a rewarding and intriguing pursuit. It combines aesthetics, science, social benefit and sensual rewards. It has a rich history and tons of controversies to poke at.

I never feel that making dinner is a waste of my time.

I’m pretty much with you. And I can’t help but wonder as joining startups has clearly been sold as a path to riches, this site has shifted.

Here’s a benchmark question: is it better to be right or be popular?

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