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Comment by z3t4 | Hacker News Reader

Software should be secure by default. Don't blame the user.

mySQL in comparison wont even let you install without setting a root password. And it only listen on localhost/unix-socket by default. Then you need to explicitly add another user if you want to allow it to login from a non local ip. I don't think it's even possible - to both set a blank root password and allow it to login from a public IP.

So you really think the solution is to blame some low level worker, and sue him/her? The blame should always be on the people in charge, usually the CEO, who set the bar for engineering practices, proper training, etc, or the lack of.

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While I don't think blaming labor is constructive or ethical, it seems like most tools pose danger to users in proportion to utility. For example, cars can squish people, electricity can fry people, and power tools can remove limbs.

Typically, people start out using knives and bicycles as children, learn through experience that crashing and getting cut hurt, and carry those lessons forward when they start using tablesaws and cars later in life. How does this apply to elasticsearch? I have no idea.

We could teach our children that software is very dangerous, especially databases. Or we could make software secure by default. But we also need to teach the user how to use the software properly. Learning by getting hurt is effective, but then we also need to have playgrounds.

That MySQL stuff is all quite recent... up until 5.7 (?, one of the most recent releases, anyway) there's no root password by default and running `mysql_secure_installation` is a common (but not mandatory) step to, well, secure the installation and set a root password. I think MariaDB still works this way? Not sure.

I'm not aware of "bind to localhost" being the default, either. The skip-networking setting to only allow local socket connections is definitely not the default, and I'm pretty sure the default is still to bind to all interfaces.

I installed mySQL a couple of months ago on a Ubuntu server, and got asked to set a root password. I've also installed mySQL many times on Windows. Secure install is the default. And it doesn't annoy me a bit. I like my software to be secure by default.

This is ridiculous.

Software should be built in the best method of delivering maximum value to its users. A trade-off for usability can be made for certain cases like ease-of-use for new software. Redis was part of this a while ago http://antirez.com/news/96.

Engineers should know their tools before using them. It's a huge part of our jobs. You could introduce a ton of other vulnerabilities in software: XSS, SQL injections, insecure cryptography. Security is part of our job and matters we must know.

You don't blame a plane for a pilot mistake that was meant to be part of his training. Engineers in every other sector are responsible for their mistakes, we should be too.

Also, you don't sue the worker, you sue the company.

Onions. You need layers and defense in depth. Because even the best humans make mistakes and it is inhuman to assume perfectionism. Never rely on just one engineering feature.

"Software should be built in the best method of delivering maximum value to its users."

Yes, and defaulting to insecure, thus repeatedly causing huge data breaches, is the exact opposite of delivering maximum value to users. It's delivering maximum liability.

I would argue that the single command to begin using the application and the ease of on boarding / querying data was a huge factor in expanding its usage. Elastic optimized for initial spin-up and getting things running fast. It works really well! Until you load it full of data on a public IP, that is.

That single command to spin up the application can easily generate and show a copyable random secret required to use it, so that you can use easily but there's no option to use it that insecurely.

Honestly a lot of the problem is: people aren’t studying systems engineering OR security. Look at all the “learn to code in 21 days” BS and all the code academies.

There’s so much emphasis on abstracting away the systems with cloud-this and elastic-that and developers don’t know much about general systems engineering.

My recommendation to software developers: take the Network+ and Security+ exams at the bare minimum.

Honestly as much as people complain about process getting in the way of things, there should be checks and balances at any business that deals with personal information. Finance institutions are heavily regulated—these fkers should be held accountable.

> You don't blame a plane for a pilot mistake that was meant to be part of his training

Did you miss that Boeing is right now risking bankruptcy for doing exactly this?

If security is so important, why should we accept database developers who don't understand that?

Because... they dance the devops dance with their devop hats on! Security problems can be swiftly danced around until they actually surface, and can then be handled in the next round of "continuous delivery". It's also smart to postpone solving most issues until after they occur, so sales can continue bragging about "continuous improvement".

> "Engineers"

Maybe the hint is right there in your comment. Nearly all the people deploying these nodes aren't engineers in the slightest despite having someone given them such a title.

It's not always engineers that use them.

Sometimes software managers have the sudden need to show statistics and other things.

Yeah, that was fun...

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