Copenhagen Cycles with the Young, the Old, the Busy and the Dead | Hacker News Reader

Copenhagen Cycles with the Young, the Old, the Busy and the Dead

nytimes.com

66 pointsdankohn160 comments

To anyone fascinated by the "dead" part, here's the actual link: https://www.bededamerne.dk/rustvogncyklen

I live near Copenhagen and hadn't noticed this. Probably because I don't watch TV. I love it.

> "People here say there’s no such thing as bad weather," said Ms. Gulsrud, 39. "Only bad clothing."

That's true for anything outdoor in winter that involves physical exertion. Bicycling, running, cross-country skiing, whatever. Cotton and down can kill you. Because they tend to get soaked with sweat, and then lose insulating capacity.

So you want silk, wool or polypro fleece, and Goretex.

"Cotton and down can kill you."

It isn't like they - or most of the rest of us - are climbing Everest here.

I guess that you've never lived somewhere that's way below freezing in the winter. Or at least, worked up a sweat outside, there.

The New England climate that I've lived in for the bulk of my life is very close to Copenhagen's. I also love the winter and I exercise vigorously almost daily, working up a sweat out in the woods. Amazingly enough, most people during the course of human history didn't have access to fancy fabrics, yet we managed to not get "killed". Living in a city has the added advantage of having any number of heated establishments that you can step into if you're about to die.

Hey, sorry about my tone.

My experience is in areas with far colder winters. And cross-country skiing for long distances through public land, with only occasional shelter. Before there were cellphones.

As much as I like silk and wool, considering that it very rarely goes below freezing here in Copenhagen I wouldn’t say it’s an issue. Besides, the town is completely flat, so not much sweating.

That woman in TFA was wearing a wool coat, no?

I don't recommend Goretex, or other jackets with membranes, for outdoor activities (unless it's raining or it's really windy). They are not nearly as breathable as regular clothes, which means you will be sweating more. And even when you wear wool or a polyester fleece they won't warm as well as when they are dry.

This sound counter-intuitive but a lighter non-membrane jacket works better for me, both in terms of comfort and longer-term retention of body heat (better breathability -> less sweat -> smaller cooling effect).

I lived for over a decade in a place that was often quite cold in the winter. Like below 0°C for months, and sometimes down to -40°C for weeks. Also quite windy, so wind chill could be -50°C or below, at times.

And I didn't own a car, so bicycling was my only option. I did buy Gortex pants and jacket, though. So for riding, I wore silk underwear and sock liners, wool socks, heavy wool pants, high-top lace-up leather combat boots, a wool sweater, a neoprene face mask, and Gortex.

I wore pretty much the same kit for cross-country skiing and snowshoeing. But less for downhill skiing.

I did ski with a guy who almost froze to death, after his cotton and down got soaked.

I'm not against wool/polyester inner layers, they are much better than cotton. But it's not magic, they will also work worse when they are wet, and they don't transport the sweat from the skin perfectly. So what works the best for me is reducing the effect of accumulating sweat, i.e. maximizing the breathability of the jacket (for example, by using a "windshirt" style jackets from materials like Pertex).

Maybe in such exteme conditions as -40°C it's different, but for me a windshirt + thick inner layers (polyester/wool) work well for 6+ hour long bicycle rides in about 0°C.

I agree.

And I should have mentioned that I'd unzip the Gortex when I got warmed up. Or even put it in my pack, and just use a windshirt. But it's nice to have, in case the temperature drops or the wind picks up. Or if there's freezing rain.

> “It’s A to B-ism,” said Mikael Colville-Andersen, a raffish bicycle evangelist who preaches the gospel of Copenhagen to other cities. “It’s the fastest way from point to point.”

i live in a smaller city of 300k people, i own a car but ride my bike as much possible. i've been to the hospital several times recently for prenatal classes (my girlfriend took the bus). once i was late, really pushed it and it took me 8 minutes (on my bike, that is). last time we were due for an examination and took the car - the same distance took us 28 minutes, 3.5 times as long.

One of the meh reasons people love their bikes in DK is the high tax on cars. It is considered a luxury good. The taxation is approx 200% on market price, similar to Singapore.

85% for cars up to approx $27,000.

https://skat.dk/skat.aspx?oid=2244599

You are both kind of right and wrong. It's actually 85 percent for the value of the car up to approximately $28,500 in 2019 figures, and then 150 percent on the exceeding value.

But: Add 25 percent VAT to it as well.

So take a standard car which is $40.000 without taxes. It will be:

(28,500x1.85+11,500x2.5)1.25 = 101,844. So it is more or less like a 155 percent tax.

Take an expensive car which is $80,000 before tax:

(28,500x1.85+51,500x2.5)1.25 = $226,844 That is like a 184 percent tax.

On top of that, there are other taxes that you have to pay yearly or biannually, including a tax depending on mileage, another depending on weight, and there is also heavy taxation on gasoline.

On your bike, you pay the 25 percent VAT.

Wow, and I guess the same taxation is applied on cars imported from Sweden/Germany? But how do you enforce that within Schengen? Might of course be an automatic check during registration, but is there no loophole?

Yeah, there isn't free flow of car registration in EU or within its Schengen area. If you buy a car in another EU country you need to register it in your country of residence and it will be taxed and slapped on with various fees according to local rules.

Another example, if you move from let's say Germany to Denmark, it's incredibly easy in many ways, but not when it comes to your car. You're allowed to have it on your German registration papers for 6 months, then you have to register it according to Danish rules, which comes with a hefty tax payment. You can choose to not do that, but then whenever you get pulled over by police, they will check the papers and fine you heavily for not registering the car in Denmark. Many expats decide to not bother at all and just sell the car in their home country.

There may be a loophole somewhere, but for the regular person there is no avoiding the taxman.

>So take a standard car which is $40.000 without taxes.

Is that really the median car sold in Denmark? I'm doubtful.

Not in Denmark because of the tax, but in other countries with similar wealth it's pretty standard. In the US and in Germany it's around $35,000.

So take a standard car which is $40.000 without taxes.

Not in Denmark because of the tax

You seem to be contradicting yourself :)

Actually I did have a dig around after my comment and I'm surprised just how much people are spending on their cars. The median wage in the UK isn't much higher than the median new car price.

Tax on cars is the same or higher in Norway (Except EV’s), and here we love our cars, not our bikes.

Infrastructure makes the difference not taxation.

If biking is a pleasant experience people will adopt it en masses. If it's a drag on their life then people want to drive instead. Simplez.

Give me a nice bike path network throughout the city and I get rid of my car tomorrow. But those kind of projects are too complex for lazy politicians who seek to fix everything with taxation and call it a day.

Completely agree. I'm saving time and feeling a lot safer biking through Copenhagen compared to driving a car.

So you really feel safer on a bike than in a car ? Not that I feel unsafe biking in Copenhagen but I definitely feel much more safe in a car, metal cage around me and all that

I think I feel safer cycling in a city that's designed for cyclists first, than I feel in a car in a city that's designed for cars first, yes. Though certainly the time spent not driving a car gives most of the unsafe feeling in the latter city.

We now also love our electric bikes! That seems to be a big factor for getting many people cycling around Oslo's suburbs.

Not really a luxury good since salaries are extremally high in DK. The tax was a barrier several years ago, but nowadays it's not a big deal.

> Nearly half of all journeys to school and work in Copenhagen take place on bicycles. And people like it that way.

Why wouldn’t they like it that way?

Because we have fought hard to leave the manual labour of the past.

The death, poverty, rape, famine, violence, sadness, intolerance it brings.

So to have manual labour used for half of all journeys and be consider good is a surprise.

I really don't find this a hard thing to understand?

Not too long ago the streets of Beijing and Saigon were the same, but people didn't like it that way and moved first to motorbikes and then cars as soon as they could.

Ah, maybe from the point of view of Americans and people from poor countries people bike because they have to, but in Europe it’s mostly because it’s convenient, healthy and pleasant.

In developing countries, cars are status symbols. Once everybody can afford one, that stops being the case.

Yeah exactly. The funny thing is that the US still has that developing country mindset about cars and other creature comforts. I wonder why that is.

We might also want to look at climate differences between locations. Denmark and Netherlands have a rather enjoyable e with regards to biking. Other places less so. The other factors are possibly geography and the pure size of the location.

No, Northern Europe most certainly doesn’t have a climate that promotes bicycling. Denmark and Holland are flat, that is true, but so is LA. But SF is not, neither is Portland really, nor do they have very nice weather, and those cities have more far bikes, so I don’t think it’s mostly about geographical factors.

Step back: What would you deem to be good climate for cycling?

When bicycling I prefer when it doesn't rain ice cold rain almost everyday from October to March, and when it's not windy every single day (though as a kitesurfer I don't complain about THAT).

It's also not ideal when the sun both rises and sets while you're at work, so you have to bike in the dark everyday for three months. But that's strictly speaking not about climate...

And that's Copenhagen. Stockholm is worse in every possible way, darker, colder (OK, it's not as windy) and few bike lanes. Still, more people bike there than in LA or Miami.

On the other hand: https://www.boredpanda.com/students-bicycle-school-winter-sn...

Copenhagen? Visit Amsterdam. Crazy amount of bikes for decades now.

Just the Netherlands in general. In fact, Amsterdam has so many tourists that don't understand how biking works in the Netherlands that you're arguably better off in just about any other Dutch city.

Copenhagen has a constant PR push for international recognition of their biking prowess, including such histrionics as labelling themselves the “bike capital of the world.” Of course, we all know who that really is; the silent captain who needs no validation.

A good wine needs no bush ;)

(with <3 :) )

Amsterdam isn't particularly good for cycling compared with other Dutch cities. I like Groningen ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWf5fbSUNAg ) because they designed infrastructure so that it is often faster to take the bicycle than the car in the city (in Amsterdam that happened more or less by accident).

Also interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHzWe4VHLHU

Groningen is particular interesting because their were (probably) the first city in the world that gave priority to bicycles and public transport. On 19 sept 1977 the Verkeercirculatieplan [0] came into effect that prevented cars from passing through the city center. Cars had to circle around the old center. This revolutionary plan was envisioned by a couple of young politicians of the Social Democratic party, in particular Jacques Wallage, who took power in 1972 [1] to form the first Dutch left wing B&w [2].

[0] https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verkeerscirculatieplan_Groni...

[1] http://benohofman.nl/verhalen/bestuurscrisis

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_van_burgemeester_en_...

Living in Berlin now for a while. Getting around in Mitte by bike is - in my experience - usually faster than car and public transport. And the city is all but build with bicycles in mind. Íd say infrastructure design is about safety and convenience, rather than speed.

There was a recent article that showed the dutch mostly bike under a kilometer They love their cars in holland. Also these polluting 50cc scooters are allowed to use bike lanes there - they’re ubiquitous and awful

There is nothing but houses and a hospital within a kilometer of me. The closest store is about 5km and with the hills would be serious cardio there and back.

Biking sounds fine until you think about being sick and needing to run to the store with a fever.

I would encourage anyone to visit Copenhagen and cities in the Netherlands to see how non-car-obsessed cities are like. And generally how well things work. People in general are happy, healthy - they live slow - there are very few homeless.

It's like living in the future. But it will never take root in Anglo countries until their obsession against "communism" goes away.

I think that their drive towards socialism is the logical way for humanity to save ourselves. Working together towards health, happiness, progress and survival.

> “Why wouldn’t you bike? It’s stupid not to bike.”

This article seems aimed at Americans. After all, it's our paper of record.

America doubles down on cars over and over again. Building roads and widening them intending to reduce congestion, causing more congestion. Ride-sharing intended to reduce congestion, causing more congestion. Now self-driving cars intending to reduce congestion, will cause more congestion.

We spend billions making the same mistakes. New York's biking infrastructure, while laudable, pales in comparison to the roads we build everywhere else.

We have so much potential. Instead we create obesity.

“we” don’t double-down on cars. Some billionaire activists in the country have an anti-public transportation agenda and lobby hard against mass transit projects.

If I asked all the people I know if they would prefer a detached house with a front yard, backyard, two car garage, driveway, or if they would prefer living closer to other people in smaller residences so that bicycling and walking places was possible, I’m willing to bet everything I own that pretty much everyone will choose the first option.

The obesity statistics alone would make it hard for me to believe most people would vote against de prioritizing travel by cars. Hopefully it is possible to get some change on a city level though.

https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html

We have culturally ingrained the idea of a nice suburban garden home for the better part of a century. If you just ask them directly of course everyone will say they prefer it.

Of course, framing of questions also matters. “Do you want your child to have a safe walk to school”, “Would you like to have an alternative to sitting in traffic”, “Would you like a grocery store within walking distance” are all essentially questions in the same vein that would garner different responses.

Average house soze in the US has also gotten comically large over the past few decades. Square footage per person has basically doubled in the last 50 years, but it’s not like furniture has doubled in size. https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/new-us-homes-today-are-1000-s...

It’s also worth noting that even if a majority of people want the nice suburban big house, it’s not 100% of people, and yet it is the overwhelming majority of new construction. This is reflected both in housing prices (urban areas command much higher prices per sq ft) and complaints about gentrification in historic areas that have the bones to support these kinds of environments.

". . . a vengeful breeze forces damp chill to the bone. Sullen gray clouds occupy the sky, dispensing an apathetic drizzle."

It's an interesting subject to be sure, but it's hard for me to want to read the rest of the article when the first paragraph finishes like that.

I like it personally. I don't particularly care for reading fiction, but I enjoy creative writing. It gets boring reading too many technical articles that are dry as sawdust.

That seems like an accurate description of Copenhagen weather in November.

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