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Comment by Danieru | Hacker News Reader

Does the US not have pedestrian safety standards? An all metal front grill must be horrible on any safety tests.

I can only assume this is a joke and in a few hours Elon will do a "one more thing" before showing the real Tesla Pickup.

This take on a pickup looks like some engineer accidentally left their Halo fan-art on the shared CAD file server.

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Don't be ridiculous. The US has no pedestrian safety standards whatsoever. In a sane world, the NHTSA would have outlawed bull bars and required trucks to have sideguards.

I had to look this up because i figured you must be talking out of your ass, there had to be some pedestrian safety standards.

but nope, apparently not. https://usa.streetsblog.org/2017/12/07/while-other-countries...

I wish we could hold these regulators personally accountable for every pedestrian death that could have been prevented by safer regulations.

That's what the ballot box is for. You can.

The regulator of the regulator is your legislator.

I hate this answer so much. The US has 300 million people with diverse interests. About 40% of the countries GDP is spend by the government and the rest is regulated.

With that money the government does A LOT of different things, from creating special interest groups to increase salad prices for farmers in <random state> to fighting a long term geopolitical battle with China.

You can vote a couple of times, meaning you can make like 4 choices a year to effect those things. Meaning your opinion about ALL of these has to be condensed to like 4 choices, and those choices are incredibly restricted by a party system.

And with almost none of the 300 million people car safety regulation is in the Top 100 of issues they care about means that the democratic process has almost zero direct impact on a particular topic.

In your average State: Senator, US Rep, State upper house, State lower house, President, Governor, DA, State AG, State Treasurer, Lt. Governor, County Rep, City Rep, probably the Mayor (depending on if strong or weak Mayor), Sheriff and/or Police Chief and a few others. You might even get to deal with ballot propositions! The exact makeup of your ballot will vary from State to State, but there’s usually at least 7 or 8 positions you’re directly electing (notably Nebraska has a unicameral legislature, so no upper house).

We get choices. A lot of choices. The people concerned with prosecuting jaywalking aren’t the same people concerned with prosecuting trade wars. I jaywalk all the time in my city, at red lights, outside crossings, across the intersection, and often right in front of the police as long as I keep my wits about me and don’t do so in a way liable to get me killed.

Maybe stop looking to DC for all your legislative needs unless you live there. We need far less centralization of power, not more.

What? I thought the pedestrian safety standard was they have right of way.

Well, that's just state driving law. They're talking about design standards. That said, this thing fails in one way for sure... they can't have their brake lights on the tailgate like that. That does not meet the standards. So, there will definitely have to be some design changes before this becomes final.

The US is one of the most anti-pedestrian countries I've been to. Everywhere else I've been to, drivers are supposed to watch out for pedestrians crossing the road. In the US, they've managed to make it illegal!

Not true. Pedestrians always have the right of way, whether they’re ‘jaywalking’ or not.

It's nice to say that, but enforcement generally doesn't reflect it. Failing to yield to (or killing) a pedestrian on the road outside of a crosswalk often has no legal consequences.

"I didn't see them!" is such a common response for bicyclist and pedestrian deaths, it makes me sick. In 95% of cases, drivers are either distracted, driving too fast for conditions, or not fit to be driving.

This is definitely not true. I got hit by a car while crossing at an intersection (I had a green light, but no walk signal). The police report said I was at fault.

Where exactly have you been? It's definitely illegal to cross the street outside designated pedestrian crossings (where available) where I live - and you will get fined if you're impeding traffic by doing so and are seen by the police.

Now, I don't know all the national laws here in Europe, but this page would support the idea that other countries might have very similar laws: https://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/specialist/knowle...

>(c) In order to cross the carriageway elsewhere than at a pedestrian crossing signposted as such or indicated by markings on the carriageway, pedestrians shall not step on to the carriageway without first making sure that they can do so without impeding vehicular traffic.

>(d) Once they have started to cross a carriageway, pedestrians shall not take an unnecessarily long route, and shall not linger or stop on the carriageway unnecessarily.

That's not illegal here (the UK), and the link you've posted seems to simply recommend using a crossing where one is available nearby (which is mostly common sense).

I don't see how this advice implies that laws are in place?

That means "don't step into traffic". It doesn't mean "you're not allowed to cross the road unless there's a pedestrian crossing". Crossing the road outside of marked pedestrian crossings is perfectly legal here (Germany).

"(3) Persons on foot shall rapidly cross lanes on the shortest path transverse to the direction of travel, taking into account vehicle traffic. If traffic density, speed, visibility or traffic flow so require, a carriageway may only be crossed at crossings or junctions, at traffic lights within markings, at pedestrian crossing aids or on pedestrian crossings (sign 293). If the carriageway is crossed at crossings or junctions, pedestrian crossings or markings at traffic lights shall always be used." - translated with deepl from https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stvo_2013/__25.html

Your link itself says that it's not illegal, only that it is recommended that pedestrians don't walk in the middle of the road for their own safety.

https://www.mwl-law.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/PEDESTRIA...

Vehicles must yield to pedestrians in cross-walks in just about or all states it seems. I didn't read every single one in that PDF but i skimmed it.

In some states:

"Vehicles must yield to pedestrian in crosswalk on vehicle’s half of road or close to it. Pedestrians must not step off curb and into path of vehicle when vehicle does not have time to stop"

Spend some time in Brazil and you’ll realize just how pedestrian unfriendly a place can be.

In CO drivers must yield to pedestrians in cross walks. Now many drivers don't know this so resort cities put up flashing lights and warning sides for drivers. Personally, I've gotten use to the angry, honking drivers when I'm in the crosswalk but no one in their right mind is going to risk actually hitting a pedestrian.

The laws on the books are more so that if a pedestrian steps off a curb or crosses suddenly somewhere other than a crosswalk, drivers aren't immediately crucified by the law. For example, if the speed limit is 45mph with an adjacent sidewalk, how are drivers suppose to stop for any given pedestrian that jaywalks without looking? Additionally, if a vehicle has to maneuver out the way to avoiding hitting someone, they become a danger to other vehicles and even other pedestrians.

Except in areas where jaywalking is a huge hazard (i.e near homeless shelters in urban areas), it's not like people are actually getting ticketed for jaywalking.

So, is this basically illegal in other countries? Does that mean we should expect the Cybertruck to be US-only?

That was my immediate thought. Granted, I've not watched the video as I'm at work so if it was covered then I've not seen it, but that thing looks like it has absolutely no crumple zones, and the lack of curved surfaces would cause horrific injury in a pedestrian collision.

Tesla Model S and 3 in terms of collision safety are the safest cars ever sold in America. There is a giant crumple zone where the engine would be in an ICE vehicle. The Cybertruck will be the same.

The model S and 3 are built almost exclusively from aluminum and aren't marketed like tanks.

Most of the 3 body is steel. I believe the fenders and frunk/trunk lids are aluminum.

http://i.imgur.com/5dyII0Y.png

I guess for pedestrian impacts it does not matter what the frame is build from. It's the shell. Because if you (as pedestrian) already went through the aluminum shell, chances are you are already pretty much done :(

Pedestrian or passenger safety ?

No they aren’t. Model 3 doesn’t score perfect in the all the IIHS injury categories which Mercedes, Lexus, and Volvo do for the vehicle class. It got the top pick but so did 15+ other models.

Those are not made out of this apparently super-hard steel. This thing's sales pitch sounds more like a tank than a car.

But yes, as sibling replies have pointed out, I was more aghast as the fact that the US does not give one iota of fuck about pedestrian safety, apparently. Here, you can (theoretically, granted) get fined for attaching a bullbar that compromises the pedestrian safety, for example by changing how a pedestrian bends when impacted by the front of the car and in doing so increasing the risk of spinal or other injury to the pedestrian.

My comment was largely a critique of the differing approaches to road safety.

So would this make the truck unsellable in other countries?

I mean I don't have proof positive that it doesn't meet those requirements, but if it doesn't do so then yes, at least here in AU if it doesn't meet those requirements then you simply cannot register them and therefore they're not road legal.

You could technically still buy one, just as you can a non-road-legal track car, but that's it.

I'm not sure that this would have big market outside USA regardless.

Not meant to be mainstream. It's meant to be f'ing tough and show how much of a beast the electric vehicle can be. Really takes the air out of being 'Built Ford Tough' Likely just following the Roadster play book. Get the toughness doubters out of the way, then a more traditional truck to follow.

Does it not being mainstream even matter, though? Because at least here in AU, and I believe in the EU, to even register it as roadworthy it needs to not compromise its collision protection which includes pedestrian collisions.

I don’t think it’s for those markets, at least certainly not the EU.

Naturally. Even here in AU, the people that buy US-sized utes tend to be in the vast minority. I'm sure it's a negligable market that they can safely ignore, it was just an interesting thing to note as an outsider.

I see Belgium as an option on the region-selection page at the front of the website.

Can pre-order it from the UK, so there is at least intention of it ending up here. Also, I love it!

Ever seen a train pulled by a ford? I have. Built Ford Tough is TRUE

The physics of pulling something with steel wheels on a steel track make the demo a lot less impressive than it sounds.

To illustrate, consider that the world record for a single person towing a train by a strap held by their teeth is 280 tons.

How fast you can accelerate that mass it is the real question.

You can literally push a train car on flat ground by leaning on it long enough.

Didn't Top Gear once pull a train with an MGF? I'm not sure this proves anything.

Humans can pull trains. There's plenty of video of that on YouTube. They're made to roll as effortlessly as possible.

Here's a bunch of HO scale (1:87) trains pulling their full sized version, too: https://twitter.com/mrtimdunn/status/1101414657418498049

I would love to see the frowns of the EU regulators when they wake up and see this.

Never going to pass, those sharp edges and corners would give negative EuroNCAP ratings.

I guess it’s a good thing that trucks like this aren’t really a thing in the EU.

They exist, but I don’t know anyone who has ever owned or rented one. They’re hard to find, dealerships don’t tend to have them so you’d have to find a specialist importer I reckon.

Most commercial dealers will have them - the same places you'd go to buy a van (in the UK at least). I've used them for work in a couple of contexts (usually Mazda ones for whatever reason) and they've been great.

Even then, I'm not sure they're that common. Most contractors/plumbers/movers/etc will have a Transit or something similar. There are a few, farms sometimes have them, but I would find it strange to see one parked outside someones house.

Doubt they're even going to try to introduce it on the EU market, there's very little demand for pickup trucks here...

In urban areas, yes. In rural areas- in Greece they're like a stereotype, farmers with pickup trucks. I know at least one person who has a pimped-up one with rollbars (bullbars?) and big lights and so on.

> In urban areas, yes. In rural areas- in Greece they're like a stereotype, farmers with pickup trucks. I know at least one person who has a pimped-up one with rollbars (bullbars?) and big lights and so on.

Not to mention the farmers who buy these sorts of vehicles in Europe tend to value durability, reliability and ease of maintenance. From what I can tell, they all drive around in old Hiluxes.

Having been stung by John Deere already, farmers aren't going to fall over themselves to buy something that they don't own, can't fix themselves and will likely be in the dealer for months if it breaks.

This is a luxury status symbol.

You can pre-order it in Belgium, Germany, etc. Not all countries, but a significant list.

They would promote the Semi pickup instead.

For it to be sold in Europe doesn't it also have to comply with European laws? Would Tesla create a second version of the truck for Europe?

> Would Tesla create a second version of the truck for Europe?

I don't think I've ever actually seen what Americans call a 'truck' on a street in Europe.

(Slight exaggeration, but not really.)

You can see odd Toyota Hilux (I think that counts?) now and then.

Should be, those Toyota Hilux trucks found plenty of use in real situations, e.g. war in Syria [0].

---

[0]: https://www.globalresearch.ca/dutch-government-provided-terr...

Or the so called Toyota War in Chad in the 80s.

Some Dodge Rams and Ford pickups in Finland. They barely fit in parking lots and are ridiculously huge and polluting.

There's a Dodge Ram parked outside my door (Paris). It only moves on the weekend...

Parking in traditional Paris-style by making the slots larger himself?

Not a whole lot but you do see them. Naturally, nobody ever uses it for working neither catched one ever hauling a payload. But they do look really great.

It's like somebody else already said, it's just too big to park. Subterranean parkings that are the norm in European cities are pretty much impossible with them.

I've seen a F150 once in my life, and that's pretty much the only pickup truck I've ever seen (Bordeaux, France).

I think you might see some in the countryside, so not exactly in the streets. But I've only seen one myself.

Don't Teslas have some sort of collision detection that will automatically apply brakes in case of an object in the road?

And anyway, I'm not sure why an all metal grill would be worse than the grill guard (cow catcher) already present on a lot of trucks.

Tesla pedestrian collision warning is dangerously ineffective. It passes some tests with flying colors and completely fails other pedestrian safety tests.

Plays into the inconsistent nature of autopilot.

To be honest, that is also a problem with human drivers

Hence, regulations requiring specific designs to lessen the effects of a human being run over by a car.

It's not an easy feature to test. A lot of magazines have used really fake looking inflatable or cardboard people. Radar systems are going to see those really well. Machine vision solutions may correctly classify the objects as non-human. You don't want your emergency breaks to go off every time a plastic bag floats in-front of your car.

Then you have far more complex real-world situations like this one. The emergency breaking works correctly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3rmevP6XVY

I'm not sure what statistics are available for pedestrian collisions. Probably nothing short of deaths are reported reliably at the national level.

As do a lot of other premium-brand cars, nothing special about it anymore.

I bought a new Subaru Forrester. Even the base model comes with cameras which do a lot of work, including automated braking

Not really. Many people in the south and more rural areas use large trucks as a daily driver. Many with custom front bumpers that are solid steel.

Sure, but a manufacturer couldn't sell a car with a solid steel bumper. In the US you have lots of freedom to modify your car after you buy it, but manufacturers have strict regulations.

An interesting point: the oneupmanship game of aftermarket car customization will be the worst deficiency this thing has in terms of appealing to what I presume must be the target audience. Perhaps a radically modular interior could partially make up for the lack of exhaust systems etc to replace with custom counterparts? (the "back to the future air intakes" joke will get old very fast)

Just went to Jeep’s site. Steel front and rear bumpers are a $1,395 factory option on a 2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon.

lol. hitting a pedestrian and killing them is essentially a traffic ticket in the US

>Does the US not have pedestrian safety standards?

I don't know what it is like outside of the United States but here everyone has the common sense to know "don't walk in front of moving vehicles" as you are taught as a child "look both ways before crossing" over and over and over.

You can put all of safety features you want on a vehicle, but if they hit a pedestrian there is a VERY good chance they will die. That's a lot of force and a little bit of rubber or plastic won't make a lot of difference, I say this as someone that lost a very dear friend to a hit and run as a pedestrian and lost another friend this year that was stationary on her motorcycle and someone rear-ended her and killed her (effectively) instantly.

>>Does the US not have pedestrian safety standards?

Yes we do, get out of the way.

Outside of major cities there are almost no pedestrians in the US, the only time people walk in the US is when our car/truck is broken..

and with Uber we do not even have to do that now... Technology is great :)

Turn all parking spaces into buildings and you can pretend you live in space, except without leaving Earth :).

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