When you start with relatively little, compound interest is relatively very unhelpful - it compounds wealth and benefits people who have started with something more than you.
Twice as good at nothing is still nothing.
I wasn't wealthy when I started investing. Hell, the first dollar I put into my long term portfolio was when I was living in my car! I started with ~$200 that I made from doing a collection of odd jobs (mowing lawns, computer repair, moving dirt, etc.). Every extra penny I made went into investing into a moderate portfolio focusing on high yield dividends (4-6%).
As I've grown in my career, got married, etc., I've kept effectively the same principles. I now get great passive income after 10 years of doing this and it's only getting better with each dollar we put in.
It is possible with the right mindset. In an investing group that I'm part of, my story is the norm - not the exception.
Two words: selection bias. That your path worked for you does not mean it's the only wise path for every circumstance. The path of most people around me is their savings get destroyed by surprise medical or repair bills because they were born into poverty and never get a chance to build meaningful savings. So it's better to spend it on something while you have it on things that can't be taken away in a bankruptcy.
Most people (in this context) make the mistake of spending it on drugs, worthless trinkets, junk food, etc. Most aren't encouraged to pursue skills that can pay the bills. Or they're actively discouraged. "Crabs in a bucket" is a real mentality. People I grew up around have it. I had to hide my interest in entrepreneurship just to protect it from sabotage.
I'm glad you were in a situation that enabled your path! It's great that you were able to thrive through early savings. I don't know when you came up, but cheap and functional cars are hard to come by in a post-Cash for Clunkers world and police are more aggressive with the homeless/car-homed. Your path is not as viable in the US in 2019.
These are the people most in need of the concept of compound interest. If they knew that small steps every day can lead to big outcomes, they would be more inclined to take them.
Doing what's kept your head barely above water for years seems safer than putting a few dollars away every month hoping it grows higher than the next thing that fails in your car or house. That's if you can get a bank account at all. Everyone knows someone to ask for the number of a good bankruptcy attorney. That's networking when you're broke and defeated.
> The mechanism of learned helplessness is now very well-charted biologically, and the original theory got it backward. Passivity in response to shock is not learned. It is the default, unlearned response to prolonged aversive events and it is mediated by the serotonergic activity of the dorsal raphe nucleus, which in turn inhibits escape.
Learning how to help yourself isn't as easy as it seems especially when you barely or don't have the means to do so.
But every step along the way, the system is fighting her. Most recently, she's in jeopardy of losing two sources of assistance because she's doing "too well" to qualify. With those gone, she'll likely be making less than she was before she had a job.
Our system (in the United States) is seriously fucked up. All of the various programs try to pass the buck whenever they can. The negative feedback loops are overwhelming.
Can't schedule Tara for an extra 5 hours because that will be an extra $20, which will put her over $100/week, and her assistance will be cut by $50/week because she earned that extra $20. (paraphrasing the numbers here). It was also costing some of these people $x/day to take a bus to and from work, but that wasn't calculated in their earnings/cutoff calculations.
Truly messed up 30 years ago, messed up today.
How much will that compound interest have added after 15 years? Only about $7,000. Not exactly a "big outcome".
To a lot of folks it is. That’s half a down payment for a house in a lot of the US.
You could use that same 5% and have a full down payment four years sooner.
I imagine that people actually seeing some progress over time may encourage them to save/contribute a bit more, or to put some money in to somewhat larger CDs or whatnot (even excluding stock stuff). Or... they may be encouraged to contribute a small bit to a 401k if they end up at a job that offers it.
You may $40k/year - having, say, $3k in savings can really change your outlook and susceptibility to otherwise crippling 'emergencies'.
You could save it for 15 and have 37k (7k interest)after 15 years. Or 0. You could save it for 30 and have 126k (54k interest) after 30 years. Or 0.
If it were FU levels of money, or even 100%+ returns, I might think differently. But I can't imagine someone locking away $70k of their earnings for 30 years for only a 70% return.
2) An outside can't sabotage your own idea. Only you can sabotage it. Sure, it doesn't make it any easier, but if someone can change your mind on your definition of "success" then you will never achieve it.
3) Yes, people spend money on dumb shit. I was in the same environment. Keeping up with the "jones" was a thing. Succeeding was also looked down upon. You know what is consistent with folks who came into success from those areas? They said f-that, I'm going to make my own path, regardless of what others say. They had mental fortitude.
4) My first car cost $2,000. My second car cost $1,000. Both I saved up and purchased. If police are harrassing you about being homeless in a car, then leave that location. That sounds like a police state (Cali anyone?). And before you say "It's not that simple to just leave!" Yes, yes it is. In order to change my situation, I literally "YOLO'ed" across the country (no job, nothing) in order to get out. Much like many in this investment group, in order to get out of hell, you have to make huge bets.
I live in the USA in 2019. I lived in the USA when I was homeless during the height of the recession. It is easier now than it was then.
You just basically said - Folks that go from A to B come from A. Of course!
You act as if your situation is the worst possible situation. For example, imagine having to take care of a sick parent and 2 kids and a wife. Imagine being addicted to drugs. Imagine having a criminal or drug-dealing record. Imagine having a disability. Imagine being suicidal.
Even if you went through all the terrible things I listed, imagine not having any mental fortitude. Mental fortitude doesn't come easily or at all to a lot of people. This pull yourself up by your bootstraps is a nothing but a shiny pokemon.
I came from poverty and I have everything I wanted now. But I also recognize that 99% of the people that were in poverty with me didn't make it out.
> many of the folks that have gone through similar transformations don't come from "easy" backgrounds.
Some simple critical thinking skills and basic logic (often learned in a philosophy course, but not always) would help one understand that this shows only that the statement <it's impossible for any poor person to become wealthy> is false. It certainly says nothing about the idea that <all poor people could become wealthy>.
I think you're catching a lot of crap for being "hurtful", but I don't see it that way. I see you being direct and appreciate your comments in this thread.
"I started with $200" tells us nothing useful.
I can start with $5 and have great passive income if I'm making $100k and wife is making $70k and both of us are capable of saving a good chunk per year.
I can start with $5000 and have little more than extra pocket money after 10 years if my salary is in the $20k to $30k range and I'm capable of saving $100 per lucky moon.
GP is absolutely right, compound interest does not do much if you don't have much. There is nothing ridiculous about it.
Most retail "investing" is really just skimming money from workers and giving it to shareholders.
Real jobs-and-opportunity-building investing isn't particularly encouraged by the markets. It's much easier to make money with various techniques that rely on the political manipulation of asset prices - like property, stocks, crypto, and corporate image - than by actually doing and making useful things at a reasonable price.
Which is why stock is such a contentious issue in the startup world. The operating rule is that you don't share profit with ordinary workers unless it's unavoidable.
Ideally if you're a funder you don't even share it with founders. That's more challenging to organise and happens less frequently, but if you're a founder it's naive in the extreme to assume you'll be spared any attempts to make it happen.
Nothing is one-size-fits-all of course, but I'd much rather be surrounded by those kinds of 'can-do' types who don't sit around waiting for life to come to them.
MMM's lifestyle works well for MMM, because of his circumstances. Those circumstances don't easily carry over to the general populace.
- If you had enough money in the bank to cover an extremely high family deductible for a year without it causing serious pain, if something bad happened, AND ALSO
- Two adults either of whom could, in months if not weeks, land a job with decent to excellent pay and a much better family insurance coverage, so there's almost no risk of having to pay that high deductible more than once, worst-case scenario is one of you has to work for a while.
Like yeah, no shit buddy, if you have in demand skills and are already rich health care can be cheap. Stuff's cheaper for the rich, news at 11. Thanks for the advice.
Then what really got me were the people in his comments section (can't recall if he was down there too, but he certainly didn't discourage it) shitting on anyone who even ever so timidly pointed out that this advice was entirely useless—no part of it actionable—for people who were still trying to become FIRE-tier rich, despite its being presented as generally useful advice and a tone of "I don't get why people complain about health care costs, what dummies!" throughout the post.
My father in law is out of touch as well. He talks about maxing out your 401k. He pays he son $15 an hour on 1099 and talks about how he should be saving, impossible. When my wife was making $40k right out of college he preached it as well. If you’re making $40k you can’t put $18.5k into the bank.
Look at the statistics for Asian immigrants — astoundingly successful as a group, many arriving in the country without money or even English. When you see an Asian family all living upstairs in their convenience store with the kids working and studying hard — those kids end up a Harvard. Their parents certainly aren’t buying rent-to-own TVs.
You can literally get promoted to manager at a McDonalds in six months — if you just show up on time have have even a tiny shred of maturity and ambition you can move up, even in the most menial of industries. There is definitely some personal responsibility involved, getting yourself addicted to drugs won’t help. Nor will getting in relationships with toxic people.
What’s ridiculous is that there are people that live their whole life as victims. Either they have a low IQ and are just simple minded, or they make a series of bad decisions again and again. Suggesting that compound interest “doesn’t do much if you don’t have much” —- nobody is saying compound interest alone is going to make you rich; it merely amplifies and helps you create wealth. Perhaps compound interest isn’t the right first step, what it seems like some people really need is some Tony Robbins so they can get themselves out of victim mindset that poisons them for generations. Maybe some Dave Ramsey as a first step to get financially disciplined.
Like one of the earlier posters, I too lived out of my car. I worked menial restaurant jobs, was in extreme debt, no family resources, even some troubles with the law. But barely 10 years from that I ended up working at a FAANG. It’s a long, involved story in which nobody would be interested, however the point is that this idea that people are stuck in their minimum wage fate is just fatalism nonsense. That fatalism is common in Catholic countries — it’s the reason that entrepreneurs were seen as strange in places like Mexico — the idea that you can change your stars is just sacrilege; “god’s will” has been responsible for more generational poverty than almost any other cause. The secular equivalent is the myth that if you are poor, you will always be poor.
Understanding compound interest isn’t just about building wealth, it’s about understanding the consequences of debt. Buying that shiny thing you can’t afford with “easy, low payments,” ends up shackling you to debt.
https://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-t...
Quick napkin math doesn't grant you any "great passive income" from "$200" and "extra pennies" for 10 years.
I'm not trying to be rude, but with incomplete data you're sending both the signals you want, as well as completely opposite signals. The latter suggest that in reality you just made a lot of money for the last 5+ years, which completely invalidates what I think you wanted to convey.
Do you think you'd say this to the poster's face in an in-person conversation? I find it's too easy to communicate in this way on the Internet, but it appears hurtful and over-the-top. Nasty comments can affect peoples' lives and we rarely see the fallout of how we hurt others in this way. Let's all tread more carefully and be a little nicer to each other.
Why don't you go tell all those families on welfare to just go make more money and change their mindset.
That is a hilarious example of selection bias.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Your comment would be fine without the second sentence.
~2% is great if you're doing okay financially and have a good career. It's useless if you have any marketable skill that would benefit from spending what you can spare on tools or services. A pair of good mixing headphones in 2017 paid for itself by 2018. It would have only been an extra $2 in a savings account. That investment paid for a MIDI controller that came with Ableton Live Lite. That helped pay for an upgrade to Suite during a sale less than a year later.
All the money I spent on the controller and Suite upgrade would amount to barely $30 a year in savings interest. That's not going to help me with the tiny but still greater income built on those investments.
In your case you are reinvesting gains from your music career back into your music career which is currently increasing in value. The principle is that this will let your career grow at increasing rates.
> I have a friend who carried a big stack of linen cards about this thick, and when somebody would make a comment that reflected self-pity, he would take out one of the cards, take the top one off the stack and hand it to the person, and the card said, “Your story has touched my heart. Never have I heard of anyone with as many misfortunes as you.
Sure, you might not start with as much as someone else. That doesn't change the effects of compound interest - you can still have have an exponential return.
[1] - https://jamesclear.com/great-speeches/2007-usc-law-school-co...
It's not lacking empathy. At the end of the day the only thing you can remain control of is your attitude. Are you going to let unfortunate circumstances continue to ruin your life or are you going to do something about it? Charlie developed this thinking when he son died of leukemia at age 9. He was devastated, but he decided it wasn't going to be a drag on the rest of his life.
The quote continues: "Well, you can say that’s waggery, but I suggest that every time you find you’re drifting into self-pity—I don’t care what the cause, your child could be dying of cancer, self-pity is not going to improve the situation—just give yourself one of those cards. It’s a ridiculous way to behave and when you avoid it you get a great advantage over everybody else, almost everybody else, because self-pity is a standard condition and yet you can train yourself out of it."
[EDIT: PS Apparently Albert Einstein agrees:
>"Compound interest is the eighth wonder of the world. He who understands it, earns it ... he who doesn't ... pays it."
We all have some resources at our disposal. Understanding that slowly growing them over time can really add up is helpful regardless of where you start. In fact, I'd argue that knowledge of compounding is more helpful for those with little. Wealthy people aren't in need of more wealth, so the concept is less useful for them.
Saving that $300 puts you in a better place than someone who squanders all of their cash. When I was starting out at work, nothing irritated me more than people bitching about how underpaid and poor they were, who somehow found the cash to burn up their earnings in cigarettes and to be out drinking all weekend.
Sadly, a huge number of people can't do that. If your bills are $1000/mo and you earn $1001/mo, and invest the entire excess, when you're old, you'll have below $8 for every month invested today, which is meaningless compared to your expenses. 8 times nothing is nothing. But if your bills are $1000/mo and you earn $1130/mo and invest the entire excess, it'll entirely pay for a corresponding lifestyle when you're old.
Perhaps a more important lesson in that case is compound interest on debt. If you borrow money from a credit card company, you can get exponentially fucked. The lesson may not be that compound interest gets you wealthy, but it's certainly that compound interest can make you worse than broke.