The 40% Keyboard | Hacker News Reader

The 40% Keyboard

tbf-rnd.life

214 pointsoftenwrong328 comments

Call me cynical, but I think a lot of the small style keyboards I see around the office are more of a fashion trend than anything.

I remember when the insistence was on number pads, and how dare they be removed from our laptops and desktop keyboards.

Fast forward a few years and I was made fun of at a programming job for preferring a full keyboard with a number pads. I guess programmers are too cool to enter in dollar amounts into Excel.

Now the trend is for brightly multi-colored keys, which are often unlabeled [1], and basically an otherwise standard rectangular keyboard which has no obvious ergonomic benefit over a full 100+ key keyboard.

[1] This makes no sense because the colored keys imply you enjoy looking at your keys and their unlabeled nature implies that you don’t need to look at your keys while you type. i.e. a fashion trend.

No numpad is an ergonomic benefit. Your mouse is closer so you don't have to move your hand as far.

The best way to have a numpad if you really need one, I have found, is to have a separate one like how the Microsoft Sculpt keyboard does it.

Your mouse is closer so you don't have to move your hand as far.

Not if you use a mouse left-handed ;)

But more seriously, I grew up being trained to touch type in the classical way complete with ten-key exercises. I strongly prefer having a full numpad and I actually prefer the extra distance to the right for mouse usage. I've found over the years that the more I move my hands, the less likely I am to have discomfort.

God damn you cheating lefties! You cant have cake and eat it too! </joke>

I really wish for keyboard options with numpad on the left.

I am using numpad rarely but its handy to have when in need.

This exists.

I have used this keyboard for the past few years, and swear by it: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000V5GQ8O

Full num pad, but on the left.

For right-handed people like me, this makes the mouse position more natural, while still letting me use the num pad when needed.

Not hard to learn to use the mouse with your non-dominant hand. It's just a couple of days of practice. And then switch between your left and you right every other day. Don't even have to flip the buttons, just learn to use the index for secondary and middle for primary clicks.

Actually, a programmable keyboard is great for lefties, you can have a numpad on a layer on the left part of your keyboard. Ah, and move the WASD and gaming keys to the right of the keyboard without having to modify all the games each time you play.

A keypadless keyboard coupled with a dedicated numberpad works great.

I'm using a Kinesis Freestyle 2 split keyboard with a separate num pad in between the left and the right side. Works nicely for me.

I'm right handed, but use my left hand for the mouse. Have for years. Took two days to get used to it.

Those exist, look up "southpaw" mechanical keyboards.

I'd recommend everyone to get used to operating the mouse with either hand.

It certainly helps load balancing, and probably has other benefits too. Consider it a DR plan if you suffer a dominant hand fracture, for example.

But the best mouses are tailored for one hand, like the MX Master. I used to switch mouses when I used generic mice, but I'm never going back to those.

The best disaster-recovery plan for when you can't use your dominant hand to operate a mouse is to be able to use the computer without use a mouse.

"The best way to have a numpad if you really need one, I have found, is to have a separate one like how the Microsoft Sculpt keyboard does it. "

The way I do this, is by having an 'Ultimate Hacking Keyboard' (ugh I loathe that name, how can anyone take you serious with a name like that? but at least the product itself is the best there is available (at the moment)) and then have a numeric keypad in the middle (between the two halves). I got one off Ali Express with mechanical keys, it's backlit with obnoxious blue leds, but once you let that go - it's quite a good setup.

If you have a keyboard flashable with QMK you can make a key activate a layer that has a numpad on it. If you really like customizability and a split layout, a keyboard flashed with QMK is going to serve you much better, IMO.

You can do that on a uhk too, but then you don't have printed keys. Which is okayish for the numbers themselves, but not the operators.

I've had my eye on that one for a while. How do you like not having an escape or function keys? That's the biggest thing holding me back from getting it.

I just got an ergodox ez keyboard, it has all the features of the UHK diverging on modules (as the UHK only has one atm, they are on par / ergodox has more keys), a more versatile tenting kit, and an ortholinear layout.

I've changed from the default map and restored the esc key and it doubles as a vim like 'leave layer'. It feels very natural.

As for tilde, I dropped the caps lock key and moved tab downwards to place tilde under esc.

Another option is to layer the key (ie, you have a special modifier key that changes the keys) so mod+tilde = esc. I do this to map my square brackets onto one key.

Overall I'm very happy with it. I've had a steeper than expected learning curve because I used to type with an over dominant wasd centric left hand (FPS gaming), which will apply to some but not most people.

I've remapped the top left button to be escape in the normal mode ('layer' I think it's called in the UHK), I use shift to get the tilde, and I hardly ever use the backtick - I think I have it mapped somehow but not sure.

I've been a hardcore vim user for 20+ years and this is the least of all potential problems, so if this is what you're worried about, don't be.

Function keys - it took me a while to get the keycombos into my muscle memory, basically it takes the extra modifier that the UHK has to access them. What I used to use them most often for was in Visual Studio (start debugger, run, build, that sort of thing), but what I ended up doing was basically hard-coding all those commands into a custom 'layer' of the UHK, so that (even with standard key bindings in the software) I have more logical (less chording) keys to do all those things. The main advantage is that I no longer have to contort my hands to do things like shift ctrl f5. I haven't had to re-learn bindings or manually remap keys in software for years.

For things like 'rename' in explorer.exe (F2), so things that I do really a lot, it only took a couple of days of practice to get used to the extra modifier. I did spend the time to set up AutoHotKey to do some other types of global hotkeys (open keypass or other often used software, some accented characters, that sort of thing) but that wasn't too bad.

Still, if they'd make a version with an additional function key row, I'd buy it in a heartbeat; not having them I consider a trade off for all the other good stuff (split, solid build quality, printed caps, tiltable, mechanical keys)

In terms of build quality, I like it as much as the ErgodoxEZ; I hope they'll finally come through with the extensions (only 4 years delayed...) because the thing I miss most from the Ergodox are the thumb clusters. The wooden hand rests are getting stained after 2+ years of use, but for the rest they're nice. I had firmware problems at the very beginning but that seems to be OK now. I wasn't very impressed with the support I got with those issues, it was basically first 'try unplugging and plugging back in' and then 'it works for me'. But it got there in the end after a few new versions of the firmware. The 'use the keyboard as a mouse' is a gimmick, I don't understand why they make that a core selling point in the UHK marketing. All in all, it's the best keyboard I can find that still uses somewhat standard keycaps (my reason for never trying a keyboardio; I've tried many others apart from that one).

I've got a 60%, and adjusting to FN+Num for F-Keys took maybe a week at most.

But my WASD keys and my mouse are exactly shoulder width apart. If I didn't have a numpad I'd just have a gap between my mousepad and my keyboard.

Your mouse sensitivity is too high. Competitive FPS gamers shift their keyboard well to the left and tilt it at an angle to provide enough room for an extra-large mouse pad.

https://liquipedia.net/counterstrike/File:Shroud_at_PGL_Majo...

Which means you don't have a good position when typing?

I bought a 40% split keyboard and had my mouse inbetween the halves and it relieved my joint pains. Now, I work on old mainframes and need up to function key F24, but otherwise the 40% works wonders with thumbs on modifier keys.

If you define "a good position" as "a comfortable position" then my typing position is fine for the work I do. I've tried various options, from the curvy Microsoft Natural keyboards to laptop keyboards to mini keyboards and I always come back to a standard mechanical 101-key keyboard with a G502 mouse. I think a split keyboard with the mouse in between the halves would do my head in.

> Which means you don't have a good position when typing?

Well, can't speak for OP, but personally I just slide the keyboard back over when I'm done gaming and going back to typing. I don't just leave my keyboard to my left relative to my sitting position.

Left mousing provides a similar benefit, plus it confuses people who use your terminal -- left mouse and unlabeled keys is basically hacker proof.

Unless they can touch-type and move the mouse over to the right?

Unlabeled keys and Dvorak

Short USB-cable and swap the two primary and secondary button designation of course.

>No numpad is an ergonomic benefit.

Except I can type numbers a lot faster and more accurately with a numpad. Something I do regularly throughout my day. The enter key is also a quick thumb press with the mouse hand away when I'm using my left hand for commands. I almost never have to use the mouse while typing numbers. It makes sense to me to have a quick one handed way next to the mouse to type numbers. It feels a lot more ergonomic that way then using both my hands to type numbers spread out across a line at the top of the keyboard.

Just because that's how you type numbers doesn't mean it's good for you ergonomically. I switched to using the number line and I'm fine doing it now. It's actually sometimes faster because I have 8 fingers instead of 3/4, and the enter key falls under my pinky when my middle finger is on 9.

I meant more ergonomic for my workflow. Using the number line would mean I'm repeatedly moving my hand back and forth across the keyboard. That tires me out and strains my arm more than the way I do it now. Which as far as I know, I could be wrong, is what ergonomics are about, the most comfortable, efficient way for something to be.

The problem is that the numpad is at the wrong side. I have seen a "left-handed" keyboard before with the numpad on the left. I think it's actually more ergonomic for a right-handed person.

> No numpad is an ergonomic benefit. Your mouse is closer so you don't have to move your hand as far.

Or you know, you don't need to use a mouse at all when you are used to living with keyboard shortcuts and the right desktop environment that goes with it.

That could of work for completely uninterrupted coding, but that's only a part of any project's lifecycle.

If nothing else, you'll end up using the mouse to navigate resources in web-browser or manipulate the product's UI...

Another advantage is that I can fit my 10-keyless mechanical keyboard in my backpack when I travel, which would not be possible with a full-size one.

Or you could map a numpad under home row somewhere and activate it with a "symbols" key. I rather like it:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/eb0696806831fc...

You still use a mouse?

Bravo. Agreed. I've installed an actual set mouse trap where my mouse used to be. My hand has suffered but my clout in the open office is at an all time high.

I was going to recommend using a wacom tablet, but you do you

Personally, I use the numpad to navigate source code and other text files. I very rarely use the mouse under those circumstances. So this very much depends on our personal style and use cases.

Yeah definitely somewhere where people should be allow a personal preference.

What does that numpad offer that is not already on the rest of the keyboard?

I think if you are comfortable touch typing numbers then there's not much advantage to having a number pad.

(I've worked from laptops (without numpad) connected to an external monitor for about 15 years now so I may be missing something potentially useful here.)

> What does that numpad offer that is not already on the rest of the keyboard

Navigation using one hand, allowing even different body positions. Those who don’t use it have to do Ctrl-this Shift-that. I press singe keys with a single hand allowing me to have less of constant strain in both hands than if they were always at effectively same position. Like some other posters here I believe “always everything in same position” during longer work times is worse.

During my work hours I spend more time navigating than typing, so that’s what I optimise for.

> What does that numpad offer that is not already on the rest of the keyboard?

Additional keys.

I use mine for macros.

Macros. Its a pretty fun exercise. I just started a few months ago. Still building muscle memory: 0 reruns test, . breaks test 1 opens inspector, 2 opens console, 3 opens network 5 refreshes browser (for some old stuff without livereload)

Originally it was for more general date entry type of work , eg a clerk entering data into a spreadsheet - spread sheets where a massive driver of PC sales origionaly.

Programmers have a different use case.

Either your table is extremely narrow (like 50cm wide in total) or you will have empty space between keyboard and mouse anyway, even with numpad. At least I have and I find claim about "reducing hand travel time from mouse to kb will increase productivity" not very convincing.

It’s not about travel time, but shoulder movement. I moved to left hand mouse partly for this reason.

But why is less movement automatically considered better? Screen work is sedentary enough even without movement-minimized input placement. The downsides of repetition are best battled by increasing variation.

> [1] This makes no sense because the colored keys imply you enjoy looking at your keys and their unlabeled nature implies that you don’t need to look at your keys while you type. i.e. a fashion trend.

But you could still enjoy looking at your keyboard with the coloured keys while not using it to type at that exact moment.

Exactly. Some of those colored unlabeled keyboards look stunning on the desk. Why should a keyboard be purely a utility and not part of the room design.

I own an unlabeled keyboard and I mildly regret it. I have no issues typing with it but I struggle with special keys like trying to find ^ or f5. Typing 2fa codes are a pain. If I was buying a new keyboard I would get a labeled one but with no numpad

You could just buy new keycaps and switch them on your current keyboard.

Only if you can find them with the labeling like you have your keyboard set up. It's the reason I switched away from Ergodox. If only someone would offer high quality custom keycaps, with double or triple labeling, using actual double shot injection moulding - which of course is pretty much impossible... But I'd pay $200 for a high quality key cap set that I can customize, so that I could have a printed Ergodox keycap set that isn't hand-labeled.

Considering double-shot requires molds for every key, that would mean pretty much having a mold for every single key on every single profile. Perfectly possible, but that set would very likely cost more than the $200 you're saying you'd pay for it.

I considered that but I would also want to replace the outer shell of the keyboard since thats kinda crap as well and then all I am left with is a pcb and switches. I'd rather have a fully working keyboard I can give away or keep as a spare and get a new one which suits my needs since the cost will be pretty similar.

Stunning? They are often a cacophony of gaudily bright colors.

I don't look at the outside of my car when driving, but appreciate what it looks like when driving.

It sounds like you both agree then. It's for fashion.

GP and I seem to disagree about the utility of fashion and/or appearance though.

> Call me cynical, but I think a lot of the small style keyboards I see around the office are more of a fashion trend than anything.

I believe it part of the human ability to experiment, to optimize, to research, trying out something different, or perhaps more negatively to be discontent with current options you know and going for the mentioned solution.

It is a matter of optimization, and using the freedom you have to experiment. What you want to optimize for, depends on your concerns. Weight, size, ergonomics, aesthetics, modability.

For example, I like having Bluetooth on a device like a keyboard, but I also like the ability to turn it off, and barely use it. Because USB is usually good enough. I'm cool if this adds a little bit in size/weight. You might not be cool with that. Hence, we get choice.

> This makes no sense because the colored keys imply you enjoy looking at your keys and their unlabeled nature implies that you don’t need to look at your keys while you type. i.e. a fashion trend.

The purpose of showing the values is (initial) learning curve, and reminder.

Unlabeled has a different purpose: if you (sometimes) assign a different key layout, assign different keybinds which depends on factors (such as the language you type in, OS or program you use, or location you're at) then it is useful. Also, that part of the keyboard is not going to have worn use, and the resale value might be higher. On top of that, the designer does not have to cater to all kind of weird/different niche layouts.

I do agree I am not a big fan of colored LED keyboard, but it might look pretty if you assign it certain colours and have your computer idle.

> I like having Bluetooth on a device like a keyboard

How secure is that, really? I can easily imagine that it is very easy to sniff e.g. passwords from the Bluetooth connexion. But maybe they actually put in the hard work of getting encryption right.

Well, it isn't BLE, so it still is spaghetti known as Bluetooth but at least not known vulnerable.

The point you raised is one of the reasons why I try to not use it much. I don't trust it.

> I guess programmers are too cool to enter in dollar amounts into Excel.

I use a 40% board and one of my layers brings up a numpad. I really just prefer typing on one of these boards much more than a traditional keyboard. It's more comfortable, more fun (because I can flash my own layout with QMK) and it served as a nice introduction to electronics and embedded programming. What's wrong with that?

Stop liking things I don't like!

I don't use a num pad since I switched my stacks to IPv6, but I do like having my mouse closer to the enter key. I use a 60%.

I also put my keyboard in my backpack 3/4 times a week and move to a hot desk on a different floor when I have some real work to get done.

It works for me, I spend most of my time in vim keybindings and have a layer for arrows if I need it. Even when I use my laptop keyboard, moving over to the arrows is annoying to me since I have to take my fingers off the home row.

It may be, that people who started with laptop keyboards instead of model M keyboards prefer what they are used to and what they learned on.

It's not a trend, it's a workflow. I touch type but I have keycaps with letters, I have a red escape key and a tux for the mod4, because I like the look. I hope I'm not going to hell for that.

Personally I prefer the numpad-less keyboards, I don't use number entry that much and the reduced space between keyboard and mouse (I'm not a keyboard / vim wizard) helps with comfort / RSI prevention. I use an Apple wireless keyboard.

That said, I would like something a bit more ergonomic or tactile, maybe, but all mechanical keyboards are at least 4x as tall as this one is - the flatness really helps prevent RSI in my case. I guess a wrist support would already go a long way, I prefer to keep my wrists on the table.

I seem to be something of an oddity, in that I prefer the numpad for gaming, treating the keys aroung the center "5" as left, right, up, down, jump and crouch. Everyone who sees this wonders why I don't use WASD - am I the only one?!

I have a num pad separate to my keyboard so I can move it around.

It also saves macros to keys, so I can hit a key and deploy my project. Also, cut, copy and paste are now one key press - take that RSI! Basically, anything that is uncomfortable for my hands to do, I macro and put on a key.

One day in the future I hope to turn up at 9am, click one key and my days work will play out as a sequence of macros as I drink cups of tea and earn the big bucks.

> Small style keyboards

I'm optimistic about them (depending on what "small style keyboards" mean to you). I consider ergodox in this category, due to how it does ctrl/z, function keys and layers.

Ergodox-EZ is quite beautiful. The build quality on it is solid. It's heavy, for a keyboard. This is not a logitech or microsoft keyboard where they cynically use cheap materials.

But, there are these "small" hacks: It joins Z with the ctrl key. Z has to be hit twice to type Z. Sounds like the end of the world, right?

No function keys, a layer key has to be used to get to those. Took me a bit of time to find where F12 was to get to the boot loader :)

My anecdote: I am programming and typing efficiently with it (vim, tmux). And I'm hopping onto a laptop keyboard with normal keys and at 100% speed, maybe with the exception of alt-tabbing and accidentally minimizing all windows in Windows 10.

> But, there are these "small" hacks: It joins Z with the ctrl key. Z has to be hit twice to type Z. Sounds like the end of the world, right?

For people new to the Ergodox, and as others have mentioned, this isn't required for use of the EZ.

I have two Ergodox-EZs, one at work and the other at home. For those interested, here's my setup: https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-ez/layouts/Eej0Z/la...

If you're interested in the Ergodox, I do recommend really spending some time with the configurator the first month and keep iterating and practicing with it. It starts out slow, but now I'm as fast, if not faster on it than my old layout. And I'm always able to add new features. Just reading this comment section, I realized I missed my ten-key, so I threw a new layer together on an unused key to get a ten-key setup.

One of the major things I've learned using it is to configure with mnemonics in mind. For my ten-key setup, I was tempted to put the 789 where 'yui' are, but I opted to put 789 over 'uio' because then I could remember that the ten-key's top row is down-shifted one from the number row, while still getting the top row of '/*-' in the correct position. I probably won't use a ton of the ten-key this week, but hopefully that mnemonic will help me from fumbling when I do have a use for it.

> But, there are these "small" hacks: It joins Z with the ctrl key. Z has to be hit twice to type Z. Sounds like the end of the world, right?

I'm not sure I'm reading you correctly, but you do know that you can change the layout, right?

https://ergodox-ez.com/pages/oryx

> But, there are these "small" hacks: It joins Z with the ctrl key. Z has to be hit twice to type Z. Sounds like the end of the world, right?

Then reconfigurate the layout. The greatest thing about such boards is the ability to programm them as you want. this is so great, it slowly starts leacking to other keyboards now.

I like the way z/ctrl works and got used to it. Same goes for / and ctrl on the right side. I meant it as an example of how ergodox squeezes more power into the keys.

I do use the configuration utility, for instance, to make it easier to do screenshots in Gnome. Also included in the configuration, there were firmware updates that fixed an issue where "a" would be repeated intermittently.

How do you Ctrl+Z, then?

I use a redox wireless, the layouts in both the ergodox and the redox are completely customisable, CTRL is a separate key from the Z by default on mine for example.

https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-ez/layouts/default/...

That is the default for the ergodox ez, as you can see there are multiple ways to access the CTRL key.

Via right ctrl: On the right side, / is ctrl. Hit / twice to type /.

Holding / on the right side and hitting z gets the equivalent of Ctrl+Z.

I think this is sort of right, but I do think there is some value in key reduction for certain people. I switched to a 60% keyboard with roughly this [1] layout. The use of the modifier key lets me do almost everything I need to do without moving my hands around. Putting control where caps lock is was great for me because (a) I used caps lock rarely so I don't need it in such a primary position and (b) it let me stop reaching to the bottom corner with my pinky for control, which I use constantly. A keypad is probably advantageous in certain circumstances, but I had literally never used mine so I wasn't too concerned about losing that part.

My typing speed and accuracy went up (I measured that), and my hand fatigue was considerably less (that's subjective).

Then I acquired a configurable keyboard in a normal layout, just with no numberpad. But here is the thing: I don't use _any_ of the keys outside of the ones I had on my old keyboard. It's been years at this point and I don't think I will ever go back to using them. My next keyboard will definitely be another 60%.

A former coworker had a 60%, and an independent numberpad that he could use when needed, or slide out of the way for desktop real estate. That seems like a great setup to me.

I'm not sure I would recommend this to anyone, but I would encourage anyone to consider that a 60% (or perhaps less!) might be good for them. Also I would say that the adjustment period is _much_ faster than one might expect.

As for colored/blank keys, those are definitely purely aesthetic. Nothing wrong with making your things look nice!

[1] https://i.imgur.com/dPJ9dk6.jpg

Don't forget that we're not too far from our ancestors collecting shiny seashells and pearls. Most of humans decisions aren't made following pure reason and rational thinking. Fancy cars / sneakers / coffee machines / pocket knives / &c, people are collecting/buying all kind of "nice" things for the sake of it. Some people I know spend more on shoes than I spend on rent.

As I'm going to spend many hours every day on a computer, I sure want an aesthetic and ergonomic setup. I don't really consider buying tools I like a fashion statement.

I use the Microsoft Surface wireless keyboard (poorly named but its ergonomic) and the Logitech MX Trackball mouse. I had bought them both cause I had pain in my hands and once I made the switch to both its been very rare for me to have my hands hurt in that way since.

As a result I could care less what other devs think. As soon as I say I use a trackball I get poked at but I can move my mouse much faster and its been great for gaming as well.

Edit:

In case anybody is in a similar situation and is willing to try anything I'll post the amazon links I just got off Google here:

This is the keyboard, I believe I got mine at a BestBuy when it was slightly cheaper for a moment, it's normally like $120 or so, but totally worth it, I have one for work and one for home, one of which my wife bought me.

https://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-3RA-00022-Surface-Ergonomic...

And this is the Logitech Ergo MX Trackball, it is the latest installment in a very small market, everyone who had a Trackball heard about it and we all talked about it, I ultimately bought two of them.

https://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Ergo-Wireless-Trackball-Mous...

I use the heck out of my Trackball when gaming. I feel like aiming is easier in FPS games. My friend trusts me to shoot down helicopters or just snipe any NPC while playing Far Cry 5. I do wonder what I'd be like with a regular mouse as a comparison but I don't want to go back.

This is a real annoyance of mine. None of the real nice mechanical keyboards are available in a fullsize layout. A numpad is NOT negotiable for me...several creative apps I regularly use use the numpad for control (and no, the regular number row keys ARE NOT mapped to the same commands).

Plenty keyboards with mechanical switches have numpads. Is every single one of them failing your niceness criteria somehow?

Buy a separate numpad and put it to the left of your keyboard. It provides a more ergonomic position for your mouse and allows you to use the numpad and the mouse simultaneously. Keeping the numpad on the right is a relic from the days before mice and is a huge ergonomic error.

I swear by a keyboard with a built-in numpad on the left.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000V5GQ8O

See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21582790

>None of the real nice mechanical keyboards are available in a fullsize layout.

Not true. The IBM Model M is full-size and has been available for decades now.

Bought a Corsair K95 a year or so ago and it's fantastic for me, even bought a second for the office. Pricey but it's worth it.

Thats...not quite a meant by high end. I mean stuff like a bespoke PCB so you can change all the switches out, an aluminum case... one of those $500+ custom jobs that /r/mechanicalkeyboards likes to drool over.

It's a very very deep rabbit hole.

Is this close enough?

https://kbdfans.com/collections/diy-kit/products/pre-orderkb...

Full size are rarer and more expensive. There might be some other options.

Honestly the GMMK full size is pretty nice and you can pick whatever switch you want. It doesn't have a custom case like the one I linked above, but its aluminum and you can customize everything else. Some people have even dissassembled the case and painted it.

I’m using a full-size Ducky brand keyboard with Cherry MXs and it’s getting the job done. Admittedly it’s not quite as nice as some.

Maybe you could get one of massdrop’s full-except-for-numberpad keyboards, and then get a separate USB number pad?

I have no personal experience whatsoever with these, but the Corsair keyboards have a very bad reputation among mechanical keyboard enthusiasts. Allegedly the keycaps are made of low quality ABS plastic, and because some of the keys are non-standard size, you can’t easily find replacement keycaps.

Among mainstream brands, Ducky and CoolerMaster are supposed to be much better (I have no experience with these either).

I have a CoolerMaster Masterkey Pro L with Cherry MX Browns - Its a nice keyboard, well built and not too showy. I got it for the office and I didn't want something that was very 'gamer-ey'. Only criticism is that the Cherry Browns are nowehere near as nice as the Gateron Browns I have in another keyboard (although I suppose you can't put this on CM). Oh, and maybe the ABS keycaps, they aren't great and the PBT Keycap 'upgrade kit' that CM sell isn't really a direct replacement. I'll probably pick up a separate PBT Double-shot set, but that's optional. I have recommended the CM Masterkeys Pro L to a bunch of people. I had a Corsair K70 (trampstamp edition) a few years ago, and the quality was good but the non-standard bottom row got on my nerves because it severely limited keycap replacement options.

Ducky One 2 user here: it is fantastic for the price. The aluminium case is solid, heavy and beautifully shaped and coated. Switches are perfect to me. Stock keycaps are very good though maybe not the best.

I like it so much I'm using it with both my computers with keyboard/mouse sharing software.

Just bought a Ducky One 2 on my trip to Taiwan and it's a joy to use. All the keycaps are PBT double-shot.

> Now the trend is for brightly multi-colored keys, which are often unlabeled

A close look will show you that people rarely go for unlabeled keys, nicely shaped keycaps with high-quality labels(double-shot) are the preferred thing right now. Like the very expensive SA keycap sets.

40% is a little bit too small for me, but I used a 60% at my last job as a second keyboard - I had multiple machines at my desk that I wanted to use at the same time and didn't want to give up so much desk space for the lesser used one.

I have zero use for the number pad, but looking at this reminds me of how much I'd appreciate having more of the symbolic ascii characters directly available.

Most of them would be of little value to the average end user, but I can't imagine that something like the article's charm table wouldn't be of use to developers - and the people that define the languages they use.

Completely tangentially, I think all keyboard caps should come with braille bumps by default, it would make learning to type easier and come with the added benefit of learning braille by osmosis (which I've always thought would be a bad-ass way to deliver a speech).

The lack of a numpad makes the main keyboard's part centered relative to the display, which is of tremendous importance as far as OCD is concerned.

It's not really about OCD but about physical strain. I like desktop keyboards with numpads, but for a few months I had to use a laptop with a numpad.... and it's horrible from ergonomics viewpoint, as either I'm sitting to the side of my screen leaning asymmetrically to the right or I have the screen in the proper position for my neck but my hands are curled in an inappropriate position towards the left.

It's not a big thing, but doing so for (say) 10 hours every day adds up and screws up my back. If a keyboard has a numpad, then it must be "movable" separately from the screen.

I use HHKB everyday. Small keyboard is not fashion only, it also means less movement.

And also if I have to work on windows I my right hand is closer to the mouse.

I always find for full keyboard if I try to align G and H key to the center of my monitor, the numpad and mouse are too far and some desk don't have such a big space. But if I don't it's make my spine hurts, and I don't think it's good for anyone.

> [1] This makes no sense because the colored keys imply you enjoy looking at your keys

I completely agree with you here. I've been using a Das Keyboard S for years and at this point I tend to forget it's even there except as a keyboard-shaped lump on my desk. It's only when someone else tries to use my computer and stops with a blank stare that I remember that most keyboards have labels on them. :P

Make things as simple as possible but no simpler!

Personally I type two ways:

1) engaged. I type with my fingers on the home row. This is for when I'm actively involved and typing / editing.

2) casual. For navigating. I usually do it with my fingers on the arrow keys, sometimes hitting page up/down. I don't use my other hand. My typing will not be used for input. Sometimes I use the mouse / mousewheel.

The 40% keyboard fails #2

For those cases, you just have a switch to another layer (a permanent switch like cap locks, not a modifier like shift).

The Planck default layout has a dedicated arrow cluster, The function key to the left of it can turn it into Page Up/Down, End, and Home.

> casual. For navigating. I usually do it with my fingers on the arrow keys, sometimes hitting page up/down

> The 40% keyboard fails #2

Only because you don't use hjkl to navigate. You could, but you don't (for whatever reason).

Only vi lets me navigate that way. I guess if you were causually playing a first person shooter, you could wasd :)

Games allow rebinding. Not saying you should, but you could. Some programs allow vi keybinds, such as Firefox (Vimium), Bash, Fish, Sublime, etc.

I thought the same thing, but I tried a split 40% layout and am typing on one now. It excels when there are long sequences of numbers and symbols, which are now within easier research. Pinkies are weakest, and on a typical keyboard there's about 14 keys assigned to the right pinky. I'm left-handed as well, and this layout allows me to put BOTH my thumbs to greater use and shift more work away from my pinkies and towards my left hand. In my typing pre-test on my old keyboard I typed about 65 wpm. Now for standard text it's closer to 70.

I was concerned that typing code might be slower, so I used the "custom text" feature on keyhero.com to practice typing JavaScript code. While I didn't pre-test typing code, I often type it around 50 wpm, which seems fine-- coding is often more thinking than typing.

I'm using an Ergodox EZ which has 75 keys, but I'm experimenting with this 42 key layout. So far, I prefer it. (I also receive no "fashion" benefit from trying this, as all 75 keys would appear to be in use to co-workers!)

I thought the same as you until I used a planck[1].

I thought not having direct access to numbers or symbols would be a pain, but it really wasn't. The typing experience was comfortable and my wpm went up. I would say I still prefer something in the 60% range (HHKB) layout, ideally with dedicated arrow keys.

[1] https://olkb.com/planck

How portable is the Planck?

I've got a 40% but it's a split keyboard and so it's a bit of a hassle to transport. But the Planck would let me use the exact same layout and is still ortho, so I'm thinking about getting it as a secondary.

It fits in my jacket pocket! Depending on the case material you go for, it can be heavy or light. Planck-EZ will be super light as it's plastic!

Here's a picture of mine: https://www.instagram.com/p/BzsqXJKnJhT/

I'd like a planck with smaller keys / tighter key spacing (85% to 90% of standard) and two keys in place of one big space bar. Maybe splittable at the center, still with possibility to stick the halves together for transport.

Also blank, low profile caps would be nice..

Planck's with two keys instead of the longer space are pretty common. The PCB gives you both options.

It can fit inside a Nintendo Switch case.

> This makes no sense because the colored keys imply you enjoy looking at your keys and their unlabeled nature implies that you don’t need to look at your keys while you type. i.e. a fashion trend.

That's not how aesthetics work. I mean, you are more then welcome to dislike blank caps, but it makes perfect sense.

Do clocks without numbers also disturb you?

Custom mechanical keyboards are expensive, I would wager the fanaticism is due in part to owners defending their investment. The popularity of reduced keyset mechanical keyboards is, in my opinion, primarily about lowering the BOM cost.

That being said, I'm typing this out on a Logitech K380 which is a 60% keyboard and it's fine. It's Bluetooth and can pair to 3 devices simultaneously, which is literally the only reason I'm using it.

I can never seem to find a keyboard that meets all my needs. Given the popularity of mechanical keyboards, the variety of connectivity options out there, the myriad of keyboard layouts that exist; I think there's a business opportunity for someone to make a modular system of interchangeable connectivity modules and keyboards.

60% is the sweet spot for me. I don't need a dedicated numpad as the num row is sufficient.

>I remember when the insistence was on number pads, and how dare they be removed from our laptops and desktop keyboards.

I remember when laptops didn't typically have number pads. I rue the day when almost everyone started putting them on laptops larger than 14". I feel "off center" with them on a laptop. With a desktop keyboard, I just shift the keyboard to the right a bit so the traditional keys are centered and the number keypad is off to the right.

16:9 ratio is another bugger for me. Between 16:9 and number pads on laptops, I'm an odd man out. It's tough when my preferences aren't mainstream. I'm also a lefty, so there's that.

>16:9 ratio is another bugger for me. Between 16:9 and number pads on laptops, I'm an odd man out. It's tough when my preferences aren't mainstream.

No number pads on laptops IS the mainstream. Almost no laptops have number pads; the only ones that do are huge ones, which are really "mobile workstations". Those aren't "mainstream" in any way at all. 13-14" laptops are mainstream these days, and none of those have number pads.

I prefer 15" or bigger laptops with no number keyboard and something taller than a 16:9 ratio. My tastes are not mainstream.

Exactly. But then you're claiming that numberic keypads are "mainstream" on laptops. They're not. Only really exceptional laptops have them. The vast, vast majority do not, and I'm pretty sure that includes everything from Apple.

I participated in two "Drop"s for the XMIT keyboards. First time I got the 60%. I love it, it's hooked up to a Raspberry Pi that I run as a terminal. Then I bought the 120-key Sun layout, oh man it's big! I never use the numpad or the extra function keys on the left. Having arrow keys is nice I guess.

Numpad is weird. I'm a leftie, my previous keyboard was a Microsoft Sculpt, I loved that because I could put the wireless numpad on the left(or lose it entirely).

I think as long as the shift key is the right size, I'm looking at you Logitech K400, and the arrow keys are ⊥, most keyboards are acceptable.

Tenkeyless is the sweet spot for me. Still has arrow keys, but the numpad is gone.

The smallest I can go is a "65%" essentially the main keyboard area with an extra right column that generally houses pageup/down ins/del. The extra column allows for a full inverted t arrow cluster.

Something like this: https://d2rormqr1qwzpz.cloudfront.net/photos/2019/01/06/1059...

I've tried smaller boards, but as a software engineer having to do things like chord numbers or arrow keys is simply to much of a chore.

I've never used the number pad. Any time I want to type a number I will always use the keys along the top of the keyboard.

Maybe because I learnt to type with a keyboard with no number pad and I never felt the need to switch.

Maybe it's because I learned to type on keyboards with a num pad, but I love it for numeric entry - you can enter a bunch of numbers without the need to move your hand, just moving your fingers - with practice, you can get really fast.

> Call me cynical, but I think a lot of the small style keyboards I see around the office are more of a fashion trend than anything.

There's legitimate preference at play in terms of 40 vs 60 vs 100, choice of switch, etc, but a lot of the fanaticism itself is indeed fashion.

If there's ever a doubt, just check out all the keyboard photoshoots that get upvoted to the top of /r/mechanicalkeyboards

Without a doubt, half the reason I use a 40% keyboard is how it looks. I feel that the ergonomics argument is not fully thought out, as holding down a modifier to access other layers can actually reduce ergonomics if you haven't set up your keymaps properly (e.g. to access number keys you must hold down a modifier with the same hand that you need to type the numbers with - potentially un-ergonomic).

This is what I believe as well. I prefer no numpad- there is a number row afterall. I will not give up anything else though. I see so many of these keyboards with no function keys or even a number row. It's all hidden behind some mode toggle. It's for the birds.

They do look nice but they seem to cross my personal boundary into being less pragmatic as a result.

I use an 80% keyboard (TKL) for gaming, but a full-sized keyboard for work/normal typing. The TKL keyboard lets me have it positioned a lot closer to my mouse, which allows for a more ergonomic posture for long gaming sessions. I could never give up the ten key for numeric input though - it's just too convenient and quick.

I think full size keyboards look ugly and take up too much desk space. That's just my personal opinion. I don't like how there's almost an inch of plastic along the borders of the keyboard that take up desk space while providing no purpose. Imagine a monitor with an inch of bevel around the edges, it'd be unsightly.

My understanding is that it's not a fashion thing, but to make it easier to alternate the right hand between the keyboard and the mouse.

I prefer a full keyboard myself and view every single incident where I have to use the mouse as a UI design failure, so can't confirm. But it seems to make sense.

In my case I do really enjoy typing with the 40%, I like the size and the feel of the keys. I only use it at home though, I'm not interested showing off or looking trendy. My hand movement is very minimal and it's a million times better than my macbook keyboard.

Numpads are a real annoyance on laptops. Due to the numpad the the main keyboard and the touchpad are not centered to the screen, which is totally awkward. It would be great if laptop makers would offer an option without a touchpad. Apple is doing it the right way.

I mostly use the num pad for custom key combinations as those are usually not occupied by some system built-ins. It's pretty handy, but obviously falls short if you have to switch to laptop keyboards often.

> I remember when the insistence was on number pads

I don't know if they are still a thing, but you even used to be able to buy separate numeric keypads! PS2 back when, but presumably USB now, if they still exist.

This is a case where you can have your cake and it eat it too. Simply get a TKL keyboard and a detached numpad. This way you can place the numpad on the left of the kbd or right of the mouse

I think the unlabeling was so people wouldn't ask you to use your PC for a bit.

A numeric keypad is way better for certain tasks like entering IPv4 addresses.

As someone who uses a 4x12 key grid keyboard, I disagree with the assertion that there is no ergonomic benefit.

The benefits are twofold, in my experience:

1. On the subject of a reduced number of keys

Every key is within 1 unit distance (ok, root(2) units for diagonals) of the home row. I no longer have any cause to remove my fingers from the homed position while I type. Ever.

Using (the usually criminally underused) thumbs to switch layers is great. Depress one thumb, and the numbers are now on the home row - no stretching or moving. The symbols which are usually shifted numbers are now on the top row with no need for shift. Depress the other thumb, and the cursors appear in the usual vim locations, with PgUp/Down and Home/End on the row above and special single-key Ctrl-Left/Right on the row below for by-word movement.

2. On the subject of grid layouts

I personally find the grid layout to be extremely ergonomic. There is no ergonomic intent in the staggered layout, and standard touch typing form requires a lot of bending fingers underneath or around each other.

Using a grid layout matches the mechanics of my fingers much more closely.

There are also a few keys near the middle of the board (B, Y) where it's not even clear in a staggered layout which finger is the natural one to use.

I started typing at the age of 6, hunting and pecking. That was 30 years ago.

Over the years I developed a relatively quick form of 4 finger per-hand typing, but with no proper homing - I could perform fairly long runs of typing uninterrupted based on knowing the keyboard inside out, but my hands would move all over, and I would have to look down frequently, especially after any pause, to find the first key I was going to use next (I could then proceed for a few words working entirely relatively from there).

I made several attempts to learn proper touch typing over the years, but it never went anywhere.

About 2 years ago, I got a Planck clone because it seemed like a fun idea. Within two weeks, and without any drills of training, I was typing entirely without looking at the keyboard.

It's obvious and natural which key maps to which finger.

In summary, the combination of no movement of the hands, and the grid layout (which actually is more ergonomic than staggered - no finger curling!) made typing significantly more intuitive. Especially as a programmer, for whom the symbols scattered around the right hand side, all intended to be operated with my weakest finger (I'm left handed) as an essential part of text input.

I'm still not a particularly fast typist, I never have been. But I find my built in laptop keyboards frustrating now and have no intention of going back. Small and stationary is beautiful, for me!

Just my 2c, as someone who actually uses one.

>... I disagree with the assertion that there is no ergonomic benefit. >... I no longer have any cause to remove my fingers from the homed position while I type. Ever.

Any time a QWERTY user says anything about "ergonomics" and "the home row", I know they don't know what they're talking about. The home row is utterly useless on QWERTY because you rarely use any of those keys; I never keep my fingers on the home row with that keyboard layout, because it's just a waste of motion, and results in more finger strain (try typing "minimum" with your fingers on the home row). I end up just hovering my hands over the keyboard. With a Dvorak layout, however, the home row is actually useful, and it's actually useful to keep your fingers there.

Any talk about "ergonomics" with QWERTY keyboards is a total waste of time IMO. If you're worried about ergonomics, you wouldn't be using QWERTY, a keyboard layout that was specifically designed to be as un-ergonomic as possible.

I'm mostly typing on Corne keyboards now; a split kit keyboard with 42 keys, so still considered 40%, but fewer keys than most other 40% boards. (so you have to learn to cope with not having dedicated arrow keys, for example)

I can't imagine ever going back to a non-split keyboard; for me, it's a much better typing position to have my hands shoulder-width apart rather than squeezed together. I think that's more important than the "every key is within reach of the home row" argument for the 40% size in particular (although I've kind of fallen in love with the 40% size, but I could cope with going to a larger keyboard again better than I'd cope with going to a non-split, I think)

But more than that, as a programmer, there's something meditative about maintaining the custom hardware I use to do my job. Double-checking the soldering, tuning the firmware, taking it apart to polish the components and then putting it back together again, etc. Reminds me of the Zen of Motorcycle Maintenance, in a lot of ways.

The Corne's predecessor, the Helix, was a significant leap forward from the Let's Split design that inspired it. It had a lot of firsts. First split design with reversible PCB, first split with per-key RGB, first split with OLEDs supported on both sides - necessitating some custom OLED code in QMK that was ahead of it's time. The Helix and it's derivatives (like Corne) represent the apex of 2018's DIY radically designed small boards movement, and the Japanese DIY keyboard movement too.

I'd really like a keyboard with e-ink keycaps, so that they update as I flip between mappings. It'd be particularly useful when swapping between languages / character sets (e.g. Hebrew, Greek, ...)

the corne has a neat oled display, you can display layers and modifiers there

I'm a huge fan of my Corne (crkbd for those looking it up) also and I agree with everything you've said here.

In fact I'm even thinking of building one with the outer columns chopped off if I can get a bit more used to chording.

It didn't at all take me long to get used to the 40%, the split boards, or the column stagger after using a 60% for years and I was quickly back up to ~100wpm in about a week. This was my first time with the three. Most of all, I'm never going back to a non split if I have a choice.

The original sin here is home row touch typing. I type like I play the piano- my hands move up and down the scale. But split keyboards are an anathema for this.

The Corne (crkbd) is great. I’m building a curved crkbd, similar to a dactyl manuform.

I am in the same keyboard boat. I would upvote you 5 times if I could.

The one thing I'd like is to have my iris keyboard with short travel switches.

The only thing I dislike about my corne as opposed to the iris and redox I use, is the missing [] in the centre.

to solve that, I expanded the space cadet to other layers to do [] and {}

I know a lot of people who think they can touch type the number row, but I've yet to meet anyone who can actually do it at anything resembling their normal typing speed and without errors. If people could there would be no reason for the numberpad to exist. I'm a very fast typist and I've always struggled with touch typing the number row.

Thirty minutes into using a split 40% keyboard and I was using the number row at full speed, something that has eluded me my whole life. And of course, it's a hell of a lot easier to hold down a key with my thumb and touch type the qwerty row than to make the normal awkward stretch that fullsize keyboards use.

That told me pretty much everything I needed to know. Once I learn a layout I can type any key that's on the home row or the rows that are directly above or below it and a thumb modifier faster than I can type any keys outside of the three home rows sans a modifier.

The idea that many people have that somehow 40% keyboards are about having less keys at your immediate disposal is completely backwards. There are 36 keys that are within a 1 key displacement of the home row. With the natural 36 and two thumb modifiers on each side that's already 180 keys that are all touch typeable, and that's without even getting into any of the fancy stuff like being able to tap for one function and hold for another, or using two modifiers at once, or using a vim style leader key, or chording, or having modes that you can switch into.

The smaller keyboards aren't about having less keys, it's not like I woke up one morning and decided to never use function keys or curly brackets again, it's about removing all the cruft that that can't be pressed easily and mapping it in a way that it can.

The problem is that you need to be able to touch type, but also know how to not touch type, i.e. actually knowing what character is where, when entering passwords, regular expressions etc. I can touch type, but I have no idea where all the individual numbers are; I have to type 'in the air' to make my muscle memory explicit. When entering something character by character, you can't really 'touch type' them; touch typing is about operating at an abstraction level above 'character by character'.

I also haven't met anyone that touch-types 100% to the book. Everybody does some movements which aren't considered correct. The problem is that at some point you reach a level which you consider sufficient and you stop improving. Unlearning bad habits is a huge effort.

I can touch-type the number row at full speed as I was drilled doing it. If it wasn't for that I wouldn't be able to either because you rarely need it.

The advantage of a numpad is that it reduced hand movement.

>I also haven't met anyone that touch-types 100% to the book. Everybody does some movements which aren't considered correct. The problem is that at some point you reach a level which you consider sufficient

That's because touch-typing on QWERTY by using the home row is stupid and counterproductive. The home keys are some of the least-used keys, and the whole layout was designed to be as un-ergonomic as possible.

If you want to touch type "correctly", you need to switch to a better keyboard layout like Dvorak or Workman.

I tried to learn to touch type by the book and my hands started hurting, so I switched to dvorak and that makes it really easy to touch type by the book.

Also, having the period on the top row makes using the number row for inputting non-integers much easier than on QWERTY.

The most popular layout for my language (Lithuanian) has our "additional" letters ĄČĘĖĮŠŲŪŽ on the number row. So if you are touch-typing in Lithuanian you do touch-type the number row, just not for numbers.

It really annoys me when people try to claim scientific evidence (Fitts’s law in this case) for their unscientific choices.

There is no frequency-of-use analysis, nothing about the cognitive cost of remembering a very very unique set of key bindings (the guy on my team with a 40% keyboard still struggles with some common keystrokes after several months), just “fitts’s law and we move less”.

I was your co-worker. Built a custom board entirely for aesthetic reasons, and didn't really know how to do anything that required a function key without trial and error for about a year.

Then a co-worker made fun of me. I memorized what all the modifiers did and became fully proficient in about 48 hours.

It's hard to measure I suppose, I personally started using a Redox Wireless (and now own several split, non-split mechanical keyboards of all variaties). I went from being unable to comfortably type a 1/4 of a page to being able to type an entire page at a time. (I'm a developer, so this is really important to me. I was starting to have RSI/CTS complaints at the start of the year)

Here's a study I could find with a quick search: http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/conferences/hfes02/gttalkhfes0...

Essentially comfort isn't significantly higher than with a standard keyboard, but there's less discomfort.

I'm not in any way, shape or form suggesting that you _don't_ benefit from whatever keyboard you're using. I'm just saying that, if it's anecdotal ("works well for me"), say so — don't hide it behind a veneer of faux science.

Not sold on the RSI benefits. See, I bought a Planck, thinking that the ortholinear layout would make sense. But it didn't work really. Maybe I'm just accustomed to the staggered layout, but it just felt too cramped. Besides, I don't think that less movement automatically leads to less strain. In fact it felt like my fingers didn't get to stretch enough, and my wrists were too close for comfort. All in all, the mouse still seems to be the biggest issue for me, especially the micro movements, so I adjust the mouse to have more travel. But in the end the most comfortable experience is a laptop with a decent touchpad, no need to reach for the mouse and the wrists don't move much or at all.

Careful with the trackpads. My experience with them is my hand is very tense using them and all that tension traveled up my arm into my shoulder and gave me horrible pain. I've since alleviated it by regular intervals switching between trackball and traditional mice.

I had a preonic and felt this way too. Columnar staggered seems to be the most friendly layout, and a split board so that you hands aren't shoved together.

My setup is a split 40% keyboard with a columnar staggered layout (corne), I've got layers for a numpad and mouse emulation keys, and my window manager is i3 and firefox has the tridactyl extension. I very very rarely have to touch a mouse, for the odd times I use it the mouse emulation in QMK is usually enough. I find this is the most comfortable typing experience for me.

But yeah, basically don't discount the benefits of 40% boards because you tried an ortholinear board, I found them uncomfortable too.

Your observation of micro movements of the mouse causing issues is hitting the nail on the head. This movement comes from the wrist and should be avoided.

All pro gamers use a somewhat low sensitivity which forces the movement to come from the forearm instead of the wrist. Higher accuracy isn't the only reason, you'll get chronic wrist pain within a couple of months if the mouse movement comes from your wrist.

I'd recommend at least 20cm/360, better 25+. No accel.

>Higher accuracy isn't the only reason, you'll get chronic wrist pain within a couple of months if the mouse movement comes from your wrist.

Or you could just move the mouse with your fingers. Other positives include requiring much less space and not looking silly flailing around. (My preference is maybe 1–2 cm corner-to-corner, with no wrist related issues a couple decades in; and obviously, mouse acceleration is a great idea.)

IDK, I have my mouse set up so that the full movement range is something like an inch or less; wrist is stationary on table, palm is stationary and doesn't touch mouse, and all movement is done with fingers only. It's kind of the same as working on a touchpad, where also wrist is stationary and everything is done with fingers.

Interesting as I always hated touchpads even after having tried several models of different quality. I'm very happy with my vertical mouse on the other hand. It only performs slightly worse than a normal mouse on very small precision movements but it's much more comfortable and still retains the speed of a mouse vs touchpad.

Have you ever tried using a macbook? That was the conversion point for me.

I have an ortholinear 40% that sits in my closet collecting dust. I used it for a little while, but just didn't like it that much. Despite the claims of it being more ergonomic, I found that I was contorting my pinky into some strange positions to hit some of the keys, and was getting some strain. Plus, with 40 keys, you probably need 2 additional layers to get in all of the functionality.

I also have an ErgoDox (68-key split ortholinear). I used it for a while but I just never liked ortholinear.

I have used a 60% keyboard for most of the past 4 years that seems to me about as functional as a full-sized keyboard. Basically all that I lose are the arrow and function keys (and ESC), all of which can be easily emulated with a second layer (I don't even think about it any more). I mapped caps lock to ESC.

I know that some people need a numpad, but I don't, and I like the form factor of a 60% (plus I built it up with switches and keycaps from an old Apple Extended Keyboard, which were much better than the modern Apple stuff).

This is why 65% keyboards are becoming popular. You get the compactness of a 60% with the functionality of a TKL. HHKB format is also nice if you can get used to it.

Any examples of a 65% keyboard? I've never heard this terminology thrown around till now.

Yeah. The Whitefox or Drop's Alt Keyboard or the Tada68 or the Magicforce 68.

You can find most of them on Amazon.

Getting a (read: multiple) 60% keyboard really changed my life. It makes a lot more sense for not offsetting the mouse way to the right or the keyboard to the left (as you would with a full size). As well, not having to strain my wrist to hit arrow keys got rid of any pain I had. It's awesome having everything under my hands. I'll definitely follow this 40% project.

I had the opposite experience. My 60% keyboard ruined my hands with RSI.

I strongly recommend Xah Lee's advice to anyone suffering from RSI: http://xahlee.info/kbd/ergonomic_keyboards_index.html

In my opinion the ideal setup for people people with RSI is a 80% keyboard, a seperate number pad, and a programmable keypad for commonly used shortcuts.

Same here but with a TKL (80%) keyboard. Using a full-sized keyboard with a mouse had offset my right (mouse) hand enough to give me sharp neck pain after a few hours of use. Switching to a TKL has completely eliminated this neck pain.

This. Ater having a "centered" keyboard without all those numerical keys, I began to wonder how keyboards still have the same layout even if not everybody uses those nubers on a daily basis.

Repeat this to all laptop manufacturers. I'd rather have better grill speakers and a centered layout than a number pad and speakers under the keyboard.

I really can't see how having to hold down two keys at the same time is going to help RSI. (because to get to the special keys you have to hold down a modifier key)

When you have your fingers contorted and under stress trying to hold two keys down, thats when RSI really kicks in.

I would go out on a limb and say that these keyboard are going to make one's RSI even worse.

The modifiers are placed under the thumbs, so no contortion is necessary. Try it yourself - with the possible exception of the B and Y keys, you can reach all the alpha keys perfectly comfortably with your thumb simultaneously pressing the space bar.

If you program the keyboard slightly smart then the modifier key is always on the other hand than the "primary" key.

I'm not going to claim what it does for/against RSI, but I have been using a split 40% for the last 3 years and I never looked back, in terms of comfort.

You're only holding down a few more modifiers on a 40, and with the thumbs which are underused on a full.

Also finger/hand positions are definitely much more contorted, or spread, on a full keyboard.

I use many different computers every day, and for the past 3 years, I have preferred 40% keyboards to get the job done.

Basically, the smaller the keyboard, the easier the layout is to remember. When it fits completely under your hands, with no extra columns or rows necessitating hand movement away from the home row, you can then commit the layout to your body's muscle memory faster. It then becomes more efficient and comfortable to use.

EDIT: On my current layout, I do something pretty unconventional, which is saying a lot considering I'm using Dvorak. So I've mapped the B key on my Mods layer to Backspace, D to Delete, T to Tab, and E for Enter (just to name a handful). Now, I prefer this to having mods requiring a long pinky reach to either side. It's also liberating using a layer for an extra level of intention before hitting stuff like Delete, Backspace, and Enter. If you're reading this, there's a good chance you've accidentally hit Enter one on a message or button when you didn't mean to. Especially if you've dabbled with HHKB layout. With this type of arrangement, worrying about that is a thing of the past.

If you want even better ergonomics, add tenting, concavity, and move the modifier keys + return/backspace to the thumb cluster (which should be shaped and angled so you're not moving your thumb laterally to hit it). The Dactyl-Manuform[1] is a good example of these things.

[1] https://github.com/tshort/dactyl-keyboard

Not for me, thanks.

I have a ... I don't know, it's like a 60% but with added arrows and ins/del/home/end/pgup/pgdn off to the right like on a 80%, but it's not a 80% or a standard 75% because there's no F key row.

I wouldn't want to go any smaller, I already have an extra 'super' key to access F functions, and I already have minor issues just with the physical size. Maybe I have big hands? Either way, I like the desk space back, but I think there are limits here.

2 years ago I bought this vertex core 40% keyboard: https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_det...

Unfortunately, I type in dvorak layout and the keyboard I purchased did not work out. I have to press 3 keys to type the letter 'z' because of the strange meta layers.

I switched to dvorak because I had minor wrist pains and I hoped that switching to dvorak would help. The pain went away (maybe a coincidence), but dvorak was a pleasure to type so I stuck with it.

Everytime there is a new keyboard, I try it out and become disappointed because it is heavily optimized for qwerty layouts.

The answer is custom layouts.

Here's my layout for the Mitosis split ergo keyboard designed for dvorak if you want inspiration.

https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/keyboards/mi...

I have mouse keys, a number layer that's on the home row, actual arrow keys, and no contortions needed for any of the alpha keys, all on a tiny 46-key layout.

One of the main draws for me to build a somewhat custom keyboard is that you can program it yourself. That way you can modify the layout so it suits dvorak layouts.

There is a drop-in PCB for the Vortex Core called the Atom47[0] that supports QMK[1]:

[0] https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/tree/master/keyboards/ma... [1] https://qmk.fm/

Personally, I prefer the Kinesis Advantage 2 for most of my typing work. It's more pricy than many other keyboards but I've always found dev work pretty easy with it.

Second that, its also wider than these tiny small keyboards, which is a plus comfort-wise.

I love my Keebio Iris; I've built three at this point, for my two work machines and my home office. 60%, split, columnar, programmable with QMK. Since they're completely split, with only a cable between them, I can place them in whatever angle is perfectly comfortable for me, and I have room for my track ball between them for super easy access [0]

The main power in these custom boards is in the firmware, allowing you limitless customization. If you're the sort of person to place Escape or Control on your CapsLock button via OS tools, this takes that to another level. I never have to take my hands out of home position.

Some of my layout details [1]:

* When spacebar is held down, it activates a navigation layer instead of typing space. In this layer, I have HJKL arrow keys, along with page up/down, home/end, my numrow becomes function keys, and Tab/CapsLock cycle through browser tabs.

* The CapsLock button is Escape when tapped, Control when held down.

* The damn. key [0] is Control-Alt-Delete when tapped once, Control-Shift-Escape when tapped twice.

* The fn key, when held, turns the right half of the board into a traditional numpad descending from the 789 keys in the numrow.

* The raise key, when held, gives access to any special characters not already in the main layout (-_{}[]+=|\)

I also have a separate BDN9 macropad [0] with rotary encoders for volume/zoom, and keys mapped to the debugging navigation keys for software debugging. Also has a screenshot macro (print screen, win+R, type "mspaint", enter, wait 750ms, control+P). It has a key that will open notepad on a single-tap (win+R, type "notepad", enter) or type out a long email header I use frequently when double-tapped.

There is certainly an aesthetic component (I love the look and feel of my boards and my keycaps), and the build was a big draw (soldering everything together, programming the layout), but the benefit of having a totally custom setup for my specific needs is fantastic.

[0] My primary work setup: https://imgur.com/a/uvuDeE3

[1] My QMK layout file: https://github.com/imnotpete/qmk_firmware/blob/master/keyboa...

I'm a big fan of 75% keyboards. The layout retains nearly everything from a full-size keyboard except the number pad (i.e. there are F-keys, numbers, arrows, Escape, Home/PgUp/PgDown, etc.), but compresses it all into a single rectangular block.

For me, it's the perfect balance of compactness and usability. Fits snugly in my backpack but allows me to use my preferred set of keybinds since all the relevant keys are there.

Here's a site with a rundown of most of the popular sizes: https://www.keyboardco.com/blog/index.php/2017/08/full-size-...

Hahaha—that binary keyboard.

For me, I'm a happy full-size user—at home and at work.

Work: The discontinued Apple Magic wired (like: https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/1/9/16872204/ma...)

Home: Logitech K840 https://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/k840-mechanical-corde...

I find both fantastic. Having learned to use the numpad by navigating speedily through old hierarchical menus on a DOS-based POS system, I don't think I can let them go.

Mostly I prefer 40%, but when something conventional is required (Blender, TES Daggerfall, as examples) I too like 75%.

People like to talk a lot about KB ergonomics, reducing carpal syndrome and there is a reason for it, but I don't understand why almost nobody does the one thing that contributes the most for improvement - inverted KB stand. This thing on the bottom - https://imgur.com/a/yne4lPR . People fiddle with layouts, key travel, key shape, switches etc. but that doesn't really matter if your wrists are crooked. If your wrists aren't straight you will injure them over time, that's a fact. And I see almost none KBs which allow changing KB level in a good way (in a bad way almost all of them - with stupid stands in back of KB).

I cringe slightly when I see people designing mechanical keyboards like this [1]. That's a great "standard" layout! It's split, it still has space around the arrow and navigation keys to aid finding them by touch, and the numpad is on the left.

But there's a 1.5cm (or so) tilt on the thing! Removing that is always the first thing any ergonomics guide instructs, but here it's a fixed part of the case.

Many DIY split ergonomic keyboards either have many tenting/tilting options, or are flat allowing you to make your own [2].

[1] https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=103144.0

[2] http://xahlee.info/kbd/diy_keyboards_index.html

I have a "negative tilt" keyboard tray on my desk.

I do find it is more comfortable for my wrists.

Indeed. A lot of the ergonomics people talk about is not backed by any scientific research.

Switch to dvorak to minimize finger travel and use a flat keyboard on an inverted stand.

Anything to back up these "facts"? There are many, many activities that require your wrist to be not straight. Playing musical instruments, sports...

Do you do any of them for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, 52 weeks a year?

Used to row about 20 hours a week for a few years. It does the same thing if you're not careful.

Some people certainly do, and I didn't question that.

I question the "fact" that straight wrists matter over all other things.

What "other" things? Carpal syndrome is an official illness with clearly defined causes - squeezing and damaging nerves and arteries in the wrist, in the thinnest moving point of a hand. There are no "other" things (in the scope of this post, about keyboards) and yes, it is a fact.

Gotcha, I misunderstood what you were getting at.

Split ergo keyboards like the Ergodox allow for that kind of positioning and more.

> It’s sort of obvious to figure out that the less we have to move our hand from the home row to the arrow keys, the more time we save. There is however a more formalized way to look at this in the field of user interface design.

I feel like this thinking is flawed. When you are pressing a sequence of keys, your fingers don’t wait for the first key to be pressed before the next finger starts moving to its key. This means that it is in position right after the first key is hit. One of the reasons that more optimized layouts (Dvorak, etc) don’t seem to produce any speed up, Even though from a Fitt’s law perspective they should.

Having a tiny keyboard will not make you faster and may slow you down because of all the layers you now need to use.

I use the olkb plank (https://olkb.com/planck?category=eotw) both at home and at the office. It started as fun to build, solder, and program but I soon realized that I was less fatigued after typing all day. My wrists don't break outward and I maintain my proper starting position longer as result of having less distance to travel between keystrokes. Take it for what it's worth, but at the very least they are a fun hobby project.

What's everybody's preferred "shit I'm developing RSI and need to make ergonomic changes" keyboards? Wrist and thumb is unhappy, if that's happened to any of you.

I've been in the industry for decades as a engineer/programmer/developer, and I've never gotten RSI. I'm a big fan of the old IBM Model M mechanical keyboards with the buckling springs. I know it's not as cool as some of the things available or that people in this thread are making, but it gets the job done. It's also heavy and doesn't slide around, it has a metal bottom chassis and in case of an attack on your office, you could potentially use it as a shield or weapon.

Years ago after I got into Linux, I got one of these and it's still going strong. One of the best purchases I've ever made. Best of all, the Ctrl key is where it should be for *NIX people: https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/40PSA

Same problem (actually worse than yours), have been using the employer-provided Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 for more than a year, and resting a TouchPad (Magic TouchPad 2, I'm a Mac user) on the home/page up keys. It's inexpensive, comfortable and quick and easy to adapt to (not ortholinear, no weird layouts). The downside is the membrane keys... I'd love to have a mechanical shaped like this and with a recess for the TouchPad.

1) Learned to type correctly by switching to dvorak. Nothing to do with the supposed benefits of the layout, just forces you to relearn from scratch the right way.

2) Mechanical keyboard (doesn't have to be mechanical specifically) with very light actuation force

Kinesis Advantage :)

I never have any problems with wrist fatigue, and I've sometimes wondered if it's because I type "wrong". Holding your fingers at home row and stretching always felt weird to me, and I learned to type naturally. I primarily use three digits on each hand plus thumbs (no pinkies), and I move my hands back and forth as needed - no stretching or reaching.

I can type ~60 WPM if I'm really trying, but I never really have occasion to type that fast

This sounds a bit like my wife's typing. Super weird to watch, but she can go fast and never complains of pain despite doing 100% of her typing on a laptop.

My computer-related pain started maybe 3 years into my career, and mostly manifested in my fingers and hand, less in my wrist. I switched at that point to a Logitech Wingman trackball and a Microsoft Natural 4000 split, negative-tilt keyboard, and the pain went away almost instantly and hasn't come back in the 12 years or so since.

Interesting. I've never had trouble with the bog-standard MS keyboards that happen to come with most office workstations. I do like the feel of hybrid mechanical-rubber keys though, the click is nice.

My wife says my typing looks really weird too, but it works for me. Hours and hours of AIM chat when I was in junior high and high school paid off I guess.

Same. By hovering, my wrists are never at a bad angle. In fact, looking at my hands right now, I can see them naturally sitting at roughly the same angles as those fancy ergonomic keyboards, despite the keyboard being a cheap flat one.

I tried a 60% about 10 years ago with a happy hacker but it wasn't a great keyboard to use and wasn't easily customisable or with many options. I just jumped back in this week with an Anne 2 Pro. I was moving from laptop back to desktop use and was looking to replace my full size with a mech TKL since I never use numpads ever but I wondered if corded replacements for some of those keys wouldn't be practical with a smarter bit of hardware so I gave it a go.

I have ~` replacing escape since I need them for shell and programming. I don't understand how any keyboard could drop that key. I set caps as a function key to access arrows (on hjkl as well as wasd) as well as the function keys and a few other features and it operates as Esc on tap which would be useful if I didn't have jj escape from insert mode. Overall very happy so far. There are a few window manager and term combinations I used to need to reach over to the arrows and which I never bothered to remap that I can do one handed.

It makes me want to become a proficient typist.

The only problem is it has better led light shows than the old full size gaming keyboard and the kids want to type on it all day.

As someone who uses IntelliJ all day long I couldn't use a 40% keyboard at work due to all the layering combinations needed for F1 -> F12.

However I did try for a while, and the best I've gotten to is remapping my Caps Lock key to a meta key that converts hjkl to my arrow keys.

It's a small step, but I haven't looked back since. Typing is SO much faster when you never have to leave the home row.

I recently moved to a 60% keyboard (Drop Alt with Clear switches) and really like it.

I find the look of these 40% keyboards very appealing. But I also don’t want to have to relearn to type or customize every keyboard I ever purchase in the future. If those barriers get reduced I think they could be very intriguing. Ortholinear keyboards are especially interesting...

I just hooked up my Alt with Clear this morning (previous daskeyboard). I miss the mx brown but I like how close the mouse is to the board and the reduction in reaching for the other keys. Having come from several years of split keyboards my main switching complaint was the switch and key quality was really bad. So this 40% is a positive step I hope catches on.

You don't have to customize everything you buy in the future. Even after getting a 40% (Mitosis) I can still type just fine on staggered keyboards.

I recommend going to column stagger rather than ortholinear.

Where is a hexagonal keyboard when you need it? Hexes are sweet for strategy and puzzle games, but could also be sweet for roguelikes if input devices were better. A smaller keyboard barely solves any problem, especially if you have palms as large as mine. But a hex keyboard would. Not even Kickstarter has something for hexagonal input device.

I just happened across http://xahlee.info/kbd/benzene666_keyboard.html will reading through some of the links in this thread. Unfortunately his review is spartan, and not positive.

Hexagonal arrow keys would have been enough.

Another person here who went to a 60% and I really enjoy it. I have built two with custom switch setups, one for gaming and one for general typing.

There's a lot of satisfying craftsmanship to buying a circuit board here, a case there, switches matching your style of typing, and lastly keycaps that have a nice aesthetic and color balance.

I still much much prefer a full size keyboard. I could only find one on Amazon that would connect with bluetooth. I throw it in my luggage when traveling so at least in my hotel room I can use a full size keyboard.

I hate those wretched trackpads on laptops, and also throw a full size bluetooth mouse in my luggage.

I don't travel with an extra keyboard, but I do take a mouse.

An external mouse is so much better, and hardly takes up any space.

I've built a Planck (40% ortho) and I can say for sure that I personally don't find the short finger travel between keys to be worth having to hit two keys to type a number, for example. Instead of moving one finger an extra row to type a number, I now have to move two fingers.

The problem here is not the lack of an additional row of number keys, but the poor other choices in physical keyboard layout (based on largely following the historical pattern of a 19th century typewriter design; in the “planck” example with an arbitrary ergonomically-useless horizontal shifting of the rows). It also doesn’t work very well to put the numbers on a shifted layer but all on the same row, requiring 8 fingers across both hands to type them.

If you re-arrange the keyboard into a shape according with human hand/arm ergonomics (of particular relevance for chording, moving or extending thumb keys toward the body; the standard spacebar and modifiers are not especially comfortable), and use a thumb key located in a convenient spot for the layer shift, with the numbers typed using the fingers of the opposite hand, then chorded numbers are just fine: more comfortable and efficient than the standard approach of putting numbers on a separate row.

For cases when many numbers must be typed in sequence, making that layer shift key into an optional mode switch (to effectively turn half the keyboard into a numpad) works pretty well.

If you re-arrange the keyboard into a shape according to human hand ergonomics, you can easily fit a number row that is easy to reach without making typos. See kinesis advantage. It's hard to imagine how requiring me to press two different keys for the same effect would increase speed and reduce typos. I suspect the effect is completely opposite. (Shift is painful enough and I hate typing camelcase code)

Number keys are also indispensable for games where you need to switch items while moving. A finger or two are already going to be busy with the motion keys, adding two more fingers that don't overlap with the motions is going for some octopus keyhandling.

The further keys on a sculpted Kinesis keyboard are angled the wrong way for comfortable typing (this is an unfortunate artifact of their curved PCB technology combined with lack of first-principles analysis by the designers). You want the switch axis to remain perpendicular to the hand, because flexing the proximal joint of the finger is the way people press keys, and using the whole hand to stab at further keys the way the sculpted Kinesis board requires is not particularly comfortable or efficient. There are also several other design problems with the Kinesis boards, but this isn’t really the right place to discuss it at length.

It’s certainly possible to have 2 rows of reasonably reachable keys past the home row (especially if the tops of the further keys are aggressively raised – think 1950s typewriter). Even in the best case those keys are substantially slower and more error prone (and less comfortable) than the home row or next row above, but with decent design can be made nominally acceptable to type on.

But it also works a bit better in practice to put more functions (like numbers and common symbols) on shifted layers, as long as the shift keys are conveniently located. Using pinkies for shift is not the most comfortable choice, especially pinky keys which are a stretch to reach. Modern keyboard layouts are quite terrible for making common computer code symbols accessible.

If you find it uncomfortable to hold down a shift key, consider trying a sequence of key presses instead. That is, let your "shift" just act as a dead key, modifying the immediately following keypress. Try putting your various shift keys on a thumb or forefinger. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_key

I have no particular insight into game inputs, except to note here that a significant proportion of serious computer game players develop severe RSI because their use of keyboard hardware is extreme (and arguably the hardware they use is not very well suited to handling the job safely).

> But it also works a bit better in practice to put more functions on shifted layers

I've never found that to be the case. For me, layers (and modifiers in general) have always been slower and more error prone.

Also, I find the number row on the kinesis quite comfortable. I have yet to find a comparable keyboard in that regard.

I use a Kinesis Advantage, and although the number row is indeed easy to reach, I still prefer using an embedded numpad on a layer. It's just faster, more accurate and feels less awkward than the number row. Even on the Advantage, the numbers 1, 5, 6 and 0 are awkward to type when using the number row.

EDIT: I agree with you about the gaming aspect, though.

The Atreus42 has a different take on number input, which is more like a traditional numpad. You still use your thumb to activate the numbers and symbols layer, but it's on the same hand that actually puts the numbers in, so there aren't awkward moments coordinating both hands to get a long number typed.

On my 40% ergo board I use the home row as a number row on a layer, with a thumb key activating it.

That way, instead of having to move one or two fingers, I can move none.

I want to go the other way. I want a 200% keyboard. I don't want to have to type SHIFT for capital letters or symbols and I want extra keys for diagonal cursor movement. The SHIFT key is an artifact of the physical limitations of a typewriter and is no longer needed.

I want a key for each finger with no movement required. :)

https://www.gboards.ca/product/ginni

I hear you can still get one before Christmas if you order soon :P

I don't have RSI, but it seems to me that rotating your wrists to press Ctrl with your pinky is one of the larger parts of the problem.

I prefer to press Ctrl with the side of my palm, but that doesn't work on some Lenovo and Apple laptops which Fn is at the edge of the keyboard.

You may want to check the BIOS for your laptop. It often has the ability to swap the `ctrl` and `fn` keys, which is nice for those of us that find their choice to put them on backwards from how they ought to have annoying.

That's a fair point, but I avoid on principle laptops with stupid keyboard layouts (which seem to be more and more common these days).

On the other hand, my current laptop (which I haven't bought) has no End key, but rather Home, PgUp, PgDn, Power.

How is this still a thing in 2019.

Just remap Caps Lock to Ctrl, problem solved.

If using Linux, simply add `ctrl:nocaps` to the XKBOPTIONS= line in /etc/default/keyboard, e.g.:

    XKBOPTIONS='other:options,ctrl:nocaps'

I did that, but never used it. I still find pressing Ctrl to be more comfortable because it requires less movement.

How does it require less movement? It's directly adjacent to the A key -- only the pinky needs to move, and only one key over.

To hit the key in the lower-left corner you basically have to twist your whole hand at the wrist -- not only is that more movement, it probably raises the risk of RSI to the wrist.

What am I missing?

I usually press Ctrl with the pad under my pinky finger (and sometimes the part of my palm below it). The way I hold my hand, this is just a tiny flick of my wrist. To press Caps Lock I would have to move and curl my pinky instead.

Yeah, one good thing about apple computers is that the Cmd button is under your thumb, much easier than Ctrl.

I have a Diverge 3 and I love the split aspect of it (easier on the wrists / nerves), and love the programmability (I have the keys that I use most near the home row), and I appreciate the wrist rest, but I miss the function keys' row. It has 71 keys.

I think 40% keyboards work well for gamers, but are impractical for developers, who need to access all the symbol keys ( (, {, [, etc;), and often need access to the function keys, too. Layering, having to press Fn and another key to achieve what could be a single keypress on a 101-key keyboard, just adds work. The input mechanism must be seamless so that one may focus on the actual work. The keyboard should just disappear. The much-touted keyboard.io has the same limitation.

As a full time 40% keyboard user, I take issue with the sentiment that the form factor is impractical for development. Holding a layer modifier to access symbols on the home row is less work than moving to the far reaches of a 101 key board, and often having to hit shift as well anyway!

I wrote an article on the subject recently if you're up for having your assumptions challenged: https://callumoakley.net/posts/48-keys-are-plenty

Interesting, thanks for the article! So it looks like there are two types of people: those who don't mind moving away from the home row a bit but have just one keypress (me) vs. those who value being on the home row and don't mind the additional keypress to access layers with symbols, arrows, , etc;

I can't reach `]` without moving my hands from the home row. Nor can I reliably find it using my weakest finger without looking down. Then after I've used it, I must re-home my hands before continuing. Don't even get me started on = and +...

But on my Planck, I press both of my thumbs down in their resting positions and the home row suddenly becomes

[{( )}]

(with the round parens under my index fingers).

Can't get much more seamless than.

On keyboards where you can re-map keys, you can place symbol keys nearby?

> I press both of my thumbs down in their resting positions and the home row suddenly becomes

Three keys to type in one symbol sounds bad to me, but it sounds like it works just fine for you!

Also have Diverge 3, using it with Colemak-dh layout. Took me like 6 months to fully adapt, but man it's so much better now. Now it's way easier to reach most dev-related symbols on second Fn layer which is mapped on right thumb key block.

The chorded keyboard looks interesting too:

http://tbf-rnd.life/blog/2019/06/16/0-learning-curve-chorded...

Absolutely love my Planck. I was going to build more keebs, but it's perfect for my needs, and my wrists feel infinitely better.

Another excellent solution is the XD75, which is ortholinear, but puts a number pad between QWERT and YUIOP. The spacing is absolutely great.

Physically removing the number pad and the arrow keys can be useful because it allows the mouse to be placed closer to the center, but removing the number row and function keys doesn't seem to provide any significant benefit for desktop usage.

I use the Diverge 3 + Khaili box whites as my daily driver. It has more layers than I personally could ever effectively utilize. Absolutely love this setup.

I picked it up over the Ergodox. After having used my co-worker's erogdox repeatedly, I did not like how far the thumb cluster was and this simply brought it closer which is what the author is explaining with the minimal amount of movement.

I don't like 40% keyboards because I am still traditionalist in that numbers are still a first class key. Basically, what am I willing to give up and allow to be put into a cord/layer?

If I could, I would bring the arrow keys back out, but the design's cost goes up a lot when that happens.

I've found the small keys on the thumb clusters on the Ergodox to be a good location for select function keys. I don't have to hit them often, but much of the time I do, it must be in combination with some modifier keys for certain IDE shortcuts. I have seen layouts online where people assign nothing to them. As for the big keys on the thumb clusters, I don't find them to be an issue. I do think it would be better if they were moved in just a hair though.

This is a good description of the default 40% layout and function layers on MiniVan keyboards: https://drop.com/talk/115/where-did-all-my-keys-go-a-look-in...

Of course you can reconfigure everything to suit your needs and flash directly to your board using open source QMK firmware: https://docs.qmk.fm

Custom keyboards are a great hobby for people who want to control and hack their own hardware.

I own a HHKB[1] and while very pleasant to type with the fact that the function keys are on another layer can be cumbersome in some IDEs. In IntelliJ IDEs you have Ctrl + F9 to build (or something like that) which means pressing Ctrl + Fn + 9. Maybe the experience can be improved with better placement of the Fn-key (which on the HHKB is in the lower right corner).

Reading the comments about experiences with split and/or ergonomic keyboards makes me want to try some other variants.

[1] https://www.hhkeyboard.com/

As a Vimmer, the HHKB is very close to perfection. I can reach every key without having to move my hands too far, the Fn key fall right under my right little finger and Control being in the correct place is a huge win. The fact that it has Topre switches is the icing on the cake, I wouldn't use any other keyboard on a prolonged basis.

What is it about the Topre switches that you prefer?

I like the smooth action and 'thunk'. It's a pleasure to type on after many years' use.

currently, i use split and concave mechanical keyboards with 38 keys[1] and 42 keys[2] and i have no problem so far. i also put mods on the homerows for left and right hand. whenever i want to type numbers, i only have to move down my thumb and then move down one of my three fingers. for symbols, i write haskell and racket, i don't have any problem either. as for f-keys and common shortcuts, i also don't have any problem. while writing prose, i literally don't have to move my wrists at all[3]. and here's my current layout [4].

[1] https://assets.bigcartel.com/product_images/248892149/IMG201...

[2] https://github.com/ibnuda/dactyl-keyboard/tree/coffin or tree/master

[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIBFrzXZbec

[4] https://github.com/ibnuda/qmk_firmware/tree/rarded/keyboards...

One can make a programmable matrix layout keyboard with Two Koolertron keyboards. While it may be a bit bigger than the 40% keyboard, it's small, programmable, & has 96 keys or 94 keys in 3 toggleable layouts.

Gamers tend to use it has an extended numpad but I use it as my general keyboard with bespoke tilting upwards toward the middle.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076LRJ528?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_shar...

I've never seen those, nice! I like the cute and minimalistic design with no labels. It's advertised as a "Single-Handed Programmable Mechanical Keyboard", a unit having 48 keys (in 4 groups of 4x3) - I see, so one for each hand. It being programmable sounds great, one could position characters and modifiers any which way to please.

Just curious, I suppose you've placed labels with your own mapping - or do you use the keys blank like that?

They also have a "Koolertron Programmable Split Mechanical Keyboard" which is basically two units working as a complete keyboard.

I’ve been using an 1800 keyboard for the past few years (Leopold 980C), and think the size is perfect. I have access to all of the keys I need, all in a compact package. Add to that a programmable controller from Hasu, and it’s the perfect board for me. I never need to actually use the arrow keys, as I put them under a layer under hjkl. I also use a trackball (Kensington Slimblade), so I don’t need to have too much space to the right side of the keyboard.

I use a 40% keyboard (the planck ez), and I have to say I really enjoy using it. Typing english is about the same speed at this point, but I'm still lagging a bit behind in programming, mostly because my brain still confuses layers and shift. The thing I love most through is that I no longer curl my left pinky under my hand to hit shift, and my pinky doesn't hurt all the time.

While I like the look of some of these 40%/60% keyboards, the tall keys are a big no-no for me. My wrists hurt just by looking at it.

Some have really flat keys, like this: https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/736191/49698493-06...

Is anybody trying to combine the mouse input with the keys themselves? Ie embedding a nib? I’m thinking like a light touch on a home row key being interpreted as a mouse click. Have the nib input only register if the key is either depressed or not, depending on implementation.

TEX Yoda[0] mechanical and Thinkpad Compact USB Keyboard[1] scissor switch might interest you.

[0] https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_det... [1] https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/accessories-and-monitors/keyboa...

If you have enough thumb keys then on a custom board you can put mouse keys on a layer with QMK.

Or you could just get a thinkpad, right?

I find this kinds of keyboards very interesting, but doing CAD work seems like a pain.

The biggest problem I find with all of this is that most of my software has locked down (or crappy systems for changing) shortcuts, so it would be painfully hard to set up one of this.

Interesting stuff anyway.

For CAD work, something like a large macropad might be helpful -- giving additional keys, rather than taking some away.

On a keyboard like the one linked below, every key can be programmed arbitrarily, i.e. you can set a single key to do "Control X" or whatever. I don't know if this can do it, but things like having a single key do "Control X, 5, move mouse left 5 pixels, Control K" are possible on some of these mechanical keyboards, given some programming ability.

("Gaming" macropads are also an option, the flashy LEDs can usually be disabled.)

http://xahlee.info/kbd/ly092_mini_keyboard.html

I never really committed to hjkl until getting a pok3r. I love 60% keyboards now though I still get a bit mixed up every now and then when I accidentally hit the combo for "insert" or find myself in the wrong mode.

40% keyboards are cool. I was initially skeptical when I moved to a 40% keyboard from a full sized split keyboard. After couple of months, I observed no drop in productivity or had strains.

Most people would benefit much more from practicing proper (touch-) typing than upgrading/innovating devices.

Would programmers actually benefit? Realistically, how often are you limited by your typing speed when coding?

I can type fast but there’s no way I could ever keep writing code at my typing speed, I’m always pausing to think about what I’m writing. If you type slower, you are still thinking about the code as you type. Is typing really the limiting factor, or is it actually the thinking?

Touch typing is not about speed to start with, its about the correct placement of the hands.

Yes not looking at the keyboard is a useful side effect, but from ergonomics point of view, not over stretching to reach a key really is important.

I was forced to learn touch typing when I was about 11. I hated every moment of it. It was an interactive program, and I had to have a box over my keyboard so that I was forced to use muscle memory to get the right key.

But, it meant that I have my hand in the right place, the correct angle, and use the correct force.

As a side effect, I'm not thinking about where letters are, and having to look at my keyboard(as much). This means that typing is almost like speaking, in terms of cognitive load. (hand writing is much slower and arduous for me)

You will never be a better programmer from faster typing.

But for my it's about reducing frustration with one of my main daily tools. Like having to look down (mostly due to my hand "getting lost", not actually looking up keys) distracts me from reading and thinking about the code on screen.

You can type your comments on HN faster, which leaves you more time for work.

I think the discussion is about ergonomics, not speed.

Much of the discussion is about having fewer keys, resulting in more multiple key presses to type certain symbols. That’s not improving ergonomics.

It seems some people find that not having to move the arms makes up for hand contortions.

But you’re right, the article conclusion is that “First of all, the reduced distances will increase speed, (...) If it turns out that 40% keyboards can reduce Repetitive Strain Injury or R.S.I. (...)”

Anyway, I think touch typing helps in all fronts. The alternative is not just slower typing, it also adds a mental load that can only distract from the thinking.

If you’re going to go small you might as well go all the way and get a 30% keyboard like the Gherkin. Very portable and not too bad as long as you’re willing to work with layers.

How do you quickly access the other layers to do a semicolon or colon or space with those keyboards? Saw a photo-- it's all letters.

Using software such as QMK you can program these custom boards to do anything. To answer your question all keys are accessible by turning whichever key you like into a modifier when held down so you can access another layer.

It's not that bad when you realize through your entire life you do the same thing with SHIFT to capitalize letters for example. All of these small boards are just an extension of that concept.

Sounds fun! Thanks for the reply.

Anywhere you know of that sells them (mostly?) assembled?

Look for custom keyboard pcb sellers, or /r/mechmarket

Check out KeyMouse, super cool concept.

I have one. It's too heavy and bulky for a mouse, and too flat & unergonomic for a keyboard. There are lots of pinky keys I find very difficult or impossible to reach when the hand is resting in the natural position on the device. And you don't want to move the hand too much around or you end up moving the mouse... Honestly the tiny little mouse buttons suck too.

I need that for my car.

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