Comment by debatem1 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by debatem1 | Hacker News Reader

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No, it isn't. There are three related reasons why.

First, we don't exclusively experience a concert through our ears. The reason people use words like "thumping" to describe bass is because it's felt as much as heard. That experience is important to many forms of music, and it isn't possible to get it at low volume.

The second is that the relative volume of different instruments is usually more important to the sound of a song than the absolute volume at the listener. Given that modern instruments have a huge range of loudness (drums are irreducibly loud, electric guitars very quiet), it's clear that you are going to have to amplify up to around the loudest noise to get the mix correct.

Third, sometimes it's just about range. Large concert halls, amphitheaters, etc need to get the mix right across hundreds of yards. Just as you would have to bellow to hold a conversation with someone on the other end of a football field, so a band has to be made loud to do the same.

So, sorry if you have to wear earplugs to cuddle the speakers-- but this really is done to a purpose.

Sure, you shouldn't expect to cuddle the speakers - but I go to live shows in small venues where I'm trying to dig myself into the wall at the furthest point from the speakers because it's too loud. They just need to turn it down.

You should probably try larger venues, where reason #3 is on your side.

The problem with small venues is that often you really need a lot of volume on guitars, vocals, etc to get the mix right with the drums, and then there isn't any space to soak up that energy. Instead it winds up reflecting off the walls and causing havoc, in addition to just being loud as hell.

Of course, that's not to say that there aren't bands that would play a full stack in a closet, but most of the time they're just struggling to get the mix right and give people the experience they want.

> You should probably try larger venues, where reason #3 is on your side.

Delay towers make sure that everyone suffers equally in most really large venues.

Or just go to a better venue with decent mixing. I've been to rock shows in small venues that were at a reasonable volume, believe it or not.

Some venues are better than others. Figure out which places and events have sound engineers that give a shit, and go there.

I'd love to go to a concert for audiophiles - no distortion at all, just loud clear music. There's no need for it to be so stupendously loud, especially if the audience is able to shut the fuck up and actually listen.

Have you considered classical music? Perhaps opera?

I don't _mind_ it, but it's not something I'd make a priority to go see. They certainly have the acoustics figured out.

Most concerts I've been to (not all) have been at eminently listenable volumes. There are definitely acts and venues that know not to crank the volume to 11, even for what could be described as "raucous" music.

I remember being pleasantly surprised when I saw Porcupine Tree (a post-progressive/metal act) in concert about a decade ago. I was near the stage yet the volume was so eminently reasonable I didn't even need the earplugs I brought. (No doubt this is related to Steven Wilson also being an audio engineer.)

In sharp contrast, I saw The Mars Volta – similar genre – around the same time. Unenjoyably loud even with good-quality earplugs.

I saw King Crimson in concert earlier this year at the Cobb Energy Center in Atlanta, it was phenomenal and just as you describe.

There are also small venues that specialize in these kinds of grown-up music shows. Again talking Atlanta here, the one I'm thinking of is Eddie's Attic.

Idea is to pick the venue first, then select which acts you'd like to see there.

I don’t think the volume is necessarily related to the amount of ‘distortion’ or how ‘audiophile’ the sound is. Some nightclubs have pretty incredibly clear sound but still require hearing protection to be safe. An acoustic big band can damage your hearing just fine if you are close enough.

Or you could just not go.

There's no reason other people should have to compensate for your sensitivity and lack of willingness to wear hearing protection.

Right, I like the loud music. But I don't go very frequently at all. I've been to a handful of shows, and the loud ones are always better to me. My ears ring afterwards, I know it's bad for my hearing. If I went all the time I'd definitely bring earplugs.

How many times do you have to go to loud concerts before you buy a set of earplugs? They even sell them at damn near every show I've been to, and disclaimers all over the place about the music being loud...

Don't buy the crappy foam ones, especially at the price they sell them for at venues. They make good ones that are intended for exactly this use case (earasers, eargasm, etc etc etc) and do the job really well. You can often find them on sale for around $15.

What makes you think that I'm more sensitive than average, or that I'm not wearing earplugs? Perhaps you're just unfamiliar with this kind of live show in a bar.

Given how difficult it is for a small band to make money, I don't think anyone who really cares about music should be telling folks to stay home.

Have you heard how loud an unamplified acoustic drum kit is in a small venue? It would be loud enough to damage your ears alone. On top of that for many kinds of music, drums have to be amplified to give them a certain sound. Then everything else has to be brought up to that volume.

My left ear is perceptibly worse than my right. The only explanation I know is that I play violin, and that's the ear closest to the instrument. Acoustic instruments can be surprisingly loud!

Yes, and "they just need to turn it down" is certainly oversimplified. Roughly speaking, nobody considers "it's too loud" a significant problem, and so nobody puts in any effort to solve it at any level, including venue design. I was mostly responding to the silly statement that people who think it's loud must be "cuddling speakers".

Note that I didn't say that. I said that there were multiple reasons why it wasn't "insane" that people play live music loudly, and that if you wanted to cuddle the speakers you would need to wear earplugs. I also noted that some bands will play deliberately loudly with no regard for the venue in another post.

In the end, if you want to stay at volumes that are safe for your ears without protection you will need to select your style of music, band, venue, and location in that venue with at least a modicum of care. Personally I prefer to wear the earplugs.

I already wear earplugs.

As others have said this is well beyond "cuddling speakers". But your points are fine. And if they're really unavoidable then distribute ear plugs at the entrance to your concerts. Because the alternative is a bunch of teenagers going to concerts and only later figuring out they've damaged their hearing. After all, if what you are describing is right, then the problem is even worse. A product is being sold with the knowledge that it causes harm and people are just supposed to figure out on their own to use protection while using it. It's like selling tickets to a viewing of a solar eclipse and then telling the now blind customers they should have figured out to use eye protection.

I mean, this is true of most products. I don't get a suit of chainmail with the purchase of a kitchen knife, after all. Responsibility for not cutting myself-- whether that involves protective equipment or not-- is on me.

Besides, I'm not keen on shuffling more costs over to venues or artists. It's a tough business already, and tacking even $100 worth of earplugs onto a concert might wipe out what a small band will get paid to play.

Better to have the music and have to get the earplugs, than have less music to wear them to imo.

I'm a musician, and I don't buy it. There are too many situations where it's loud without serving any musical purpose.

People listen to music with earbuds at levels that are driving them deaf, and it's not felt at all.

Jazz groups play too loud, fer cripe's sake.

Restaurants are loud. I took a sound pressure meter to an event at a restaurant, and the crowd noise was above the safe threshold before the band even started playing.

Drums are not irreducibly loud, and in any event, that doesn't explain why events with sound reinforcement are too loud. A competent drummer can play with intensity (even visually) at any volume level. Knowing how to play at an appropriate volume is part of knowing how to play.

I think that volume levels are killing live music.

To add: The music needs to be loud enough to drown out every other aural stimulus. You want to hear the music and only the music, not everyone's side conversations, not your clothes rustling around while you're dancing, not the sound of people's hard healed shoes on the dance floor.

Just. Music.

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