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Comment by pedrocr | Hacker News Reader

Finding a cure or treatment for tinnitus would be awesome. I have a very mild case from a few too many loud concerts.

What I find amazing is how we don't attack the source of the problem much that I can see. Concerts, clubs, fireworks, even movies blast away above any reasonable level, causing damage to large parts of the population. We all just get progressively damaged hearing bit by bit. And yet there's very little policing of this that I have seen. It's just another form of pollution that's being imposed on people, often in public places where they haven't even had a choice (e.g., the fireworks case) or have a very poor choice (e.g., not going out with friends over this because they want to go to a rock concert).

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I'm sorry you hurt your hearing. I know quite a few with tinnitus, and some of them are borderline suicidal with how horrible it is for them.

I doubt legislation with help. As a drummer from my early teens till mid 30s (some of that time in a partially successful band), and attender of thousands of shows, I KNEW concerts were too loud, and ALWAYS took earplugs (except once to a Weird Al show). I think I still suffer from hearing loss, especially with the amount of times I say, "huh" to my kids and wife.

So, from a position of possible mild hearing loss, I think personal responsibility is the only thing here. From wearing protection at shows, while using power tools, and I sometimes do it on the subway commuting. No one will look out for your hearing, but you.

Again, I'm sorry about your ears. I can't imagine how terrible it is, but having seen all the ways venues work, I doubt legislation will do shit.

At least where I am legislation already exists. What I'm puzzled by is why it doesn't seem to be policed at all, and why nobody seems to care. When rivers, soil or the air are being visibly produced we at least get some public reactions. For some reason for sound we don't perceive it the same way.

a real law would be based on measurement, not perception.

The law is based on measurement of course. It's our lack of reaction to the non-following of the law that's the perception issue.

If you need ear protection, and so does everyone else, then maybe the volume is too high, no?

Also, why not hand out ear protection? Whenever you go into a datacenter there should be a dispenser of ear plugs, so why not too at concerts?

What does a teenager or young adult know about this anyways? Nothing, really, and they aren't even conscious of the damage being done until it is too late.

Personal responsibility for tinnitus? Please. No. Responsibility for tinnitus is diffuse. There's a lack of awareness, lack of education, lack of regulation, lack of enforcement. I don't doubt that legislation could help: just make it a requirement that concert venues hand out ear plugs. It's harder to deal with bars, naturally, but even there, there could be a requirement for a maximum decibels for music at 15ft from speakers, and requirement that there be a sound power sensor. Gun ranges, for example, have to provide you with ear protection, and they do -- what works for gun ranges can work for other public accommodations.

Why don't you think legislation will help?

> I KNEW concerts were too loud, and ALWAYS took earplugs (except once to a Weird Al show). I think I still suffer from hearing loss, especially with the amount of times I say, "huh" to my kids and wife.

Why are they like this? Do people actually enjoy it?

I find it awful, but it's consistent at every small concert I go to.

> What I find amazing is how we don't attack the source of the problem much that I can see.

I always wear ear plugs at the very few concerts I go to. I otherwise avoid loud noises except for airplanes flights, where I've been on a few where I didn't have hearing protection.

I only have problems at night. Had a hearing test, no hearing loss. Over 30 and I can hear up to 17,500hz. (Which also appears to be around the frequency my tinnitus is at.)

I'm still trying to find the why (doctors are generally unhelpful here, "well it can just happen when you get older"...) I think that using noise cancelling headphones makes it worse, and last time I was on vacation it wasn't present.

Keep in mind that noise-induced hearing loss doesn't go from the high frequencies down -- that's presbycusis (hearing loss caused by aging). Noise-induced hearing loss creates a "noise notch" at around 4 KHz due to the anatomy of the ear.

It appears I got age induced hearing loss around the age of 5 then?

Just born with bad ears. Why would they be mutually exclusive?

Age-related macular degeneration doesn't preclude people from having bad eyes at a young age.

Go to concerts dude! Just wear protection. You can get these plugs designed for music. Just have a backup pair with you as well.

I regularly go to concerts with earplugs, often it sounds better with them in, especially if the volume is too loud or treble is too high.

Yes! I noticed that too, the sound gets all jumbled up without earplugs. Not to mention the pain and damage.

A few years ago, after a Ministry concert which was off the scale loud (or maybe I just have become off the scale old for this kind of music), I bought a pair of Earasers (https://www.earasers.store) and the few times I had to wear them, they worked great, protected my ears while being fairly transparent, and did wonders for my enjoyment of the music.

I've been using Hearos. I'm curious how different the Earasers are in terms of flatness. With the Hearos I can push them further into the ear to make things quieter, but the more attenuation, the less flat the sound is. I tend to pull them out a bit so that it's a little louder but flatter. Either way, it's real nice to leave a concert without concert-ear.

I do exactly the same thing with the earasers and some of the other brands, but haven't tried hearos.

Just my two bits, but I don't think the different brands are all that different. Some seem a bit bigger or smaller, some cost more or less. Of course I can't say that for sure about a brand I haven't tried though.

I just use cheap foam ones (classic 3m ones they use in industrial plants), still sounds tons better.

In the UK the bar staff have to have some behind the bar for them to use, and they're usually happy to give them out if I forget mine.

I'm a fan of metal and small venues (something of a double whammy for getting too much volume in one place) and I just can't recommend earasers and similar enough. Literally life-changing. I often wind up going to see live music three or four times a week, and if I didn't wear them I really would be deaf by now.

ear plugs for a 2 hour sunn o)) show is a must, glad I started using them in my early 20s going to basement hc/metal shows

I know this now. The fact that this is needed just further illustrates my point. We first blast music above safe levels and then expect people to compensate for that with hearing protection. That's just insane.

I totally agree my man. Wish you the best in the future.

No, it isn't. There are three related reasons why.

First, we don't exclusively experience a concert through our ears. The reason people use words like "thumping" to describe bass is because it's felt as much as heard. That experience is important to many forms of music, and it isn't possible to get it at low volume.

The second is that the relative volume of different instruments is usually more important to the sound of a song than the absolute volume at the listener. Given that modern instruments have a huge range of loudness (drums are irreducibly loud, electric guitars very quiet), it's clear that you are going to have to amplify up to around the loudest noise to get the mix correct.

Third, sometimes it's just about range. Large concert halls, amphitheaters, etc need to get the mix right across hundreds of yards. Just as you would have to bellow to hold a conversation with someone on the other end of a football field, so a band has to be made loud to do the same.

So, sorry if you have to wear earplugs to cuddle the speakers-- but this really is done to a purpose.

Sure, you shouldn't expect to cuddle the speakers - but I go to live shows in small venues where I'm trying to dig myself into the wall at the furthest point from the speakers because it's too loud. They just need to turn it down.

You should probably try larger venues, where reason #3 is on your side.

The problem with small venues is that often you really need a lot of volume on guitars, vocals, etc to get the mix right with the drums, and then there isn't any space to soak up that energy. Instead it winds up reflecting off the walls and causing havoc, in addition to just being loud as hell.

Of course, that's not to say that there aren't bands that would play a full stack in a closet, but most of the time they're just struggling to get the mix right and give people the experience they want.

> You should probably try larger venues, where reason #3 is on your side.

Delay towers make sure that everyone suffers equally in most really large venues.

Or just go to a better venue with decent mixing. I've been to rock shows in small venues that were at a reasonable volume, believe it or not.

Some venues are better than others. Figure out which places and events have sound engineers that give a shit, and go there.

I'd love to go to a concert for audiophiles - no distortion at all, just loud clear music. There's no need for it to be so stupendously loud, especially if the audience is able to shut the fuck up and actually listen.

Have you considered classical music? Perhaps opera?

I don't _mind_ it, but it's not something I'd make a priority to go see. They certainly have the acoustics figured out.

Most concerts I've been to (not all) have been at eminently listenable volumes. There are definitely acts and venues that know not to crank the volume to 11, even for what could be described as "raucous" music.

I remember being pleasantly surprised when I saw Porcupine Tree (a post-progressive/metal act) in concert about a decade ago. I was near the stage yet the volume was so eminently reasonable I didn't even need the earplugs I brought. (No doubt this is related to Steven Wilson also being an audio engineer.)

In sharp contrast, I saw The Mars Volta – similar genre – around the same time. Unenjoyably loud even with good-quality earplugs.

I saw King Crimson in concert earlier this year at the Cobb Energy Center in Atlanta, it was phenomenal and just as you describe.

There are also small venues that specialize in these kinds of grown-up music shows. Again talking Atlanta here, the one I'm thinking of is Eddie's Attic.

Idea is to pick the venue first, then select which acts you'd like to see there.

I don’t think the volume is necessarily related to the amount of ‘distortion’ or how ‘audiophile’ the sound is. Some nightclubs have pretty incredibly clear sound but still require hearing protection to be safe. An acoustic big band can damage your hearing just fine if you are close enough.

Or you could just not go.

There's no reason other people should have to compensate for your sensitivity and lack of willingness to wear hearing protection.

Right, I like the loud music. But I don't go very frequently at all. I've been to a handful of shows, and the loud ones are always better to me. My ears ring afterwards, I know it's bad for my hearing. If I went all the time I'd definitely bring earplugs.

How many times do you have to go to loud concerts before you buy a set of earplugs? They even sell them at damn near every show I've been to, and disclaimers all over the place about the music being loud...

Don't buy the crappy foam ones, especially at the price they sell them for at venues. They make good ones that are intended for exactly this use case (earasers, eargasm, etc etc etc) and do the job really well. You can often find them on sale for around $15.

What makes you think that I'm more sensitive than average, or that I'm not wearing earplugs? Perhaps you're just unfamiliar with this kind of live show in a bar.

Given how difficult it is for a small band to make money, I don't think anyone who really cares about music should be telling folks to stay home.

Have you heard how loud an unamplified acoustic drum kit is in a small venue? It would be loud enough to damage your ears alone. On top of that for many kinds of music, drums have to be amplified to give them a certain sound. Then everything else has to be brought up to that volume.

My left ear is perceptibly worse than my right. The only explanation I know is that I play violin, and that's the ear closest to the instrument. Acoustic instruments can be surprisingly loud!

Yes, and "they just need to turn it down" is certainly oversimplified. Roughly speaking, nobody considers "it's too loud" a significant problem, and so nobody puts in any effort to solve it at any level, including venue design. I was mostly responding to the silly statement that people who think it's loud must be "cuddling speakers".

Note that I didn't say that. I said that there were multiple reasons why it wasn't "insane" that people play live music loudly, and that if you wanted to cuddle the speakers you would need to wear earplugs. I also noted that some bands will play deliberately loudly with no regard for the venue in another post.

In the end, if you want to stay at volumes that are safe for your ears without protection you will need to select your style of music, band, venue, and location in that venue with at least a modicum of care. Personally I prefer to wear the earplugs.

I already wear earplugs.

To add: The music needs to be loud enough to drown out every other aural stimulus. You want to hear the music and only the music, not everyone's side conversations, not your clothes rustling around while you're dancing, not the sound of people's hard healed shoes on the dance floor.

Just. Music.

As others have said this is well beyond "cuddling speakers". But your points are fine. And if they're really unavoidable then distribute ear plugs at the entrance to your concerts. Because the alternative is a bunch of teenagers going to concerts and only later figuring out they've damaged their hearing. After all, if what you are describing is right, then the problem is even worse. A product is being sold with the knowledge that it causes harm and people are just supposed to figure out on their own to use protection while using it. It's like selling tickets to a viewing of a solar eclipse and then telling the now blind customers they should have figured out to use eye protection.

I mean, this is true of most products. I don't get a suit of chainmail with the purchase of a kitchen knife, after all. Responsibility for not cutting myself-- whether that involves protective equipment or not-- is on me.

Besides, I'm not keen on shuffling more costs over to venues or artists. It's a tough business already, and tacking even $100 worth of earplugs onto a concert might wipe out what a small band will get paid to play.

Better to have the music and have to get the earplugs, than have less music to wear them to imo.

I'm a musician, and I don't buy it. There are too many situations where it's loud without serving any musical purpose.

People listen to music with earbuds at levels that are driving them deaf, and it's not felt at all.

Jazz groups play too loud, fer cripe's sake.

Restaurants are loud. I took a sound pressure meter to an event at a restaurant, and the crowd noise was above the safe threshold before the band even started playing.

Drums are not irreducibly loud, and in any event, that doesn't explain why events with sound reinforcement are too loud. A competent drummer can play with intensity (even visually) at any volume level. Knowing how to play at an appropriate volume is part of knowing how to play.

I think that volume levels are killing live music.

What kind of plugs are designed for music? That's interesting.

There's something from Etymotic. It has a hole in it to reduce spectral distortion.

Good to know, thanks!

Yep, been using Etymotic ones for both concerts and riding motorcycle, and I love it. It works just right, and for $15 feels like worth every penny (ER20XS; went with that one over the regular ER20 because of a lower profile shape). They are nearly indestructable and super easy to clean too (relevant if your ears tend to produce a solid amount of earwax). Had to replace them once over the years and only because i lost my original pair.

Really comfy, non-descript, very easy to put in and remove, and only blocks out the annoying stuff while making the necessary stuff more prominent (with music, it would be amplifying guitars/synths as well as speech, while cutting down a bit on drums; with motorcycle, it would be amplifying breaking sounds, sirens/horns, and, again, speech, while cutting down on wind and engine noise). I can wear them for hours, eventually forgetting that I even have anything in, despite usually being really sensitive to earbuds and not being able to wear them for prolonged periods of time.

I've used Etymotics for years. Cheap ($20), comfortable, easy to carry, and a wonderfully flat frequency response (at least compared to cheap foam plugs). Also, Etymotics makes great wired ear buds.

Just do a search for something like "music ear defenders/protectors" and you'll see plenty of options.

Don't go for the cheap disposable rubber foam ones because those just block your ears. Look for proper reusable silicone ones. They are specially designed to block harmful frequencies without muffling or distorting the sound.

Good luck :-)

I just got the new eargasm, yea that's the name of the company, that can switch between -15db and -22db. Pretty good and better deal and sound quality than using regular foam earplugs. They are pricey around $45-$50, but if I don't lose them, worth the price for protecting my ears and better experience. There are ones cheaper, search high fidelity, HiFi, earplugs. Lots around the $20-$30 range.

There needs to be more education around this. I found out through Reddit that medical tents should have free ear plugs if needed.

Many younger people don't know the damage they're doing to their ears. Example, at festival this year overheard couple of girls wondering why bother going if wearing ear plugs when they saw mine. I told them I rather keep my hearing, and they were genuinely shocked at the concept, never crossed their mind being near front stage can cause damage.

I suspect noise pollution and dangerous levels of noise will be a future regulatory consideration.

Industrial progress has so far required loud noises, freeways, construction zones etc with little regard to their impact on peace, wellness and hearing.

In the latter case, I know quite a few people who bring earplugs with them to concerts, and I don't know of anyone judging 'em for that. Quite a few musicians wear 'em when performing, too, specifically out of recognition that their ears are pretty darn critical to music (not all of us are Beethoven, after all!).

I keep a bunch of earplugs in my car specifically for when I'm out shooting with friends, specifically so that if someone forgets one's hearing protection there's extras available. Ear and eye protection is one of those things that's both frequently overlooked and absolutely essential.

At the first concert I ever attended (Trans Siberian Orchestra), the check-in staff handed out earplugs to anyone who wanted. My hearing was already gone by that point for other reasons but I appreciated having those plugs given that the seat was right by the stage.

Not all tinnitus is due to hearing damage, I think some is neurological. I had it in the past (after an apparent infection, but no true diagnostic on the root cause), and my hearing slowly recovered. I took all known treatments though (steroids during the crisis, Ginkgo Biloba extract for a while and Magnesium supplementation since then). The ringing comes back if I drink alcohol or too much coffee though, but maybe it's the usual side-effect for those substances, and now I'm just more perceptive to it.

Another cause of tinnitus is otosclerosis, where bone continues growing around the stapes bone (the stirrup) until it moves so little that you have hearing loss, often accompanied by tinnitus.

After stapes mobilization surgery the associated tinnitus goes away.

So if you have hearing issues, and especially tinnitus, visit to an otolaryngologist. There might be solutions.

"Magnesium"

Wow, now that's interesting. I've noticed my tinnitus completely stops sometimes but not figured out why. I take Ginkgo Biloba and sometimes it seems to work, and others not at all.

I also take magnesium supplements on occasion, but usually only when I have leg cramps. I'm going take both right now to see if that makes a difference. And I'll also take just the magnesium when it returns to see how that affects it.

Thank you sharing this!

You shouldn't take Magnesium only when you have the symptoms though, it doesn't work like that. You should take the recommended dosage for supplementation all the way thru (I take 120x400mg capsules, that lasts 4 months), because your body first creates a reserve of Mg in the bones, then uses it later as necessary for other issue. If you get constant cramps, that means you've already depleted these reserves.

Prefer some form of chelated Magnesium instead of the more common Magnesium Chloride too, it's better absorbed and doesn't affect the bowel.

It's still hit of miss for me so far on the ringing in the ears. Some days are much better than others but I haven't been able to mail down why.

My wife got some potassium and I've been taking it with "Natural Calm" magnesium for the leg cramps. That's been working great to stop and prevent them. I haven't taken it everyday though. Only when I feel them coming on.

I think the Ginkgo I'm taking may be hit or miss. I'm pretty sure it's a cheap Wal-Mart brand and probably not a very high quality product.

I'm not sure what type magnesium the Natural Calm uses. I'll look into that too.

Thank you for the additional info!

Mine tinnitus and hearing loss comes from a movie, specifically Tron Legacy in 2010. The theater seemed completely uninterested in my complaint.

Not all tinnitus is caused by loud noise. While certainly worth reducing the incidence of 'self inflicted' and work related tinnitus, lots of people just get it from illness or age related hearing loss.

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