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Comment by navs | Hacker News Reader

I currently work for a startup and all three of us are hotdesking. We're constantly moved to new spaces in the hotdesking space because a new company is leaving/moving in. I've sat beside recruiters, property managers and salespeople.

There's no "quiet" room. The meeting rooms cost a few hundred and need to be pre-booked. My home environment isn't a quiet refuge either. Beside a busy street, more flatmates than their should be and a room beside the kitchen which is used late in the night.

The only quiet I can wrangle is a few hours at a local library on weekends before the kids come in for the reading and writing sessions.

The noise has gotten bad enough that I'm considering quitting my job and running away to a small town.

Yes, you can use noise cancelling headphones but:

1. They're uncomfortable for long periods

2. They don't really block all the noise and you live in anxiety waiting for that one blaring ringtone to squeeze through

3. I find it difficult to concentrate with them on. It feels like a heavy, constricting object squeezing my temples.

No solutions, just a rant.

EDIT: Thinking about it some more on the transit to work this morning. I believe the constant battering to my senses has made me more irritable. I tend to avoid my flatmates and reply with dismissive grunts and hand waves. Ditto for people in the shared space. Small things upset me even more. A failed build pipeline or a new Jira request will infuriate me. I've been countering this with more breaks from the screen to take walks around the office block.

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I also hate external noise. Here's my nuke option.

1) Sony XM3 headphones. They are the 2nd most comfortable after the Bose headphones and have the best NC. So far, nothing you haven't done before.

2) High quality foam earplugs. I have the Mack's Ultra Soft plugs, with 32 decibel noise reduction rating. Anything with 27 decibel reduction or above should be good enough though. You may need to alternate between a few brands and variants before you find one that's comfortable enough to go many hours with.

3) Pink Noise. Play it quite softly so that you can barely even hear it at all with the plugs in. It helps to drown out the remaining external noises that come through without registering in your brain as extra noise itself (which is why I play pink noise instead of other suggestions such as calming music). I like this one: https://youtu.be/8SHf6wmX5MU

I combine all 3 for the nosiest areas like studying in a busy cafe, but you won't usually need the whole stack.

>3) Pink Noise.

I worked in an office where they put speakers in the ceiling to radiate such noise. It was odd because no notice was given and it just happened. For the first week or two, we all thought it was airflow noise from the HVAC system until we noticed speakers in the ceiling.

It was effective, though. It did reduce the apparent noise, though our 15 person office wasn't terribly loud to begin with. An interesting side effect was that conversations, when they did occur, got louder because the noise made low volume conversations difficult to hear.

I find brown or grey noise to be better - I prefer the 'deeper' aspect to it. white/pink is too tinny for my ears.

I agree with the brown noise over white or pink noise. Calming and low pitched. Try this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqzGzwTY-6w

I agree that brown noise generally sounds more calming and pleasant, for example some people enjoy falling asleep to brown noise. In my personal use case of shutting out external noises, I find that it's only the higher frequencies that can make it through the noise cancelling headphones and earplugs, and pink noise helps my brain ignore those better than brown noise, as it melts into the pink noise more closely. It's definitely worth trying both out, in various environments, to figure out what works best for you.

sure. my personal is a mix of brown and grey with some airline and rain sounds blended in. using the "whitenoise" on iOS and macOS. I think the airline and rain sounds are some of the 'higher' ones that block out other stuff (and I'm usually using qc20 headphones as well).

> I'm considering quitting my job and running away

If there were an alternative, we'd all run with you. There isn't, though. Something to think about when they say there's supposedly a "talent shortage" and they're having trouble "recruiting top performers".

This baffles me. There are so many alternatives to working for a startup with no real office in a dense, expensive city.

Yes, you can also work for an established company with cramped offices in a dense, expensive city.

Or you can take a massive pay cut, tank your career, and go live in the middle of nowhere.

Sounds great.

Well, I work for a Fortune 150 company in not cramped offices in a not dense, not expensive city that is definitely not in the middle of nowhere. Its a great working environment in a great location with great benefits and pay. Such things do exist, you just have to get out of the bubble and look for them.

I suspect everyones definition of middle of nowhere is a bit different. For example, to a NYer or Bostonian anything outside their respective cores is "nowhere". To people further south and west it seems to be a much more expansive definition.

For Boston some have this attitude about anything outside of Route 128. However historically that’s where almost all the tech jobs were. Today more has moved into the city but a large number of tech jobs—especially large companies—are well outside Boston/Cambridge.

For me it's more of a suburbia vs inner city thing. I want to live where I'm a few minutes walk from a grocery store, a few bars and other amenities along with easy public access (walking, riding, public transport) to work. I could live in a large rural town if they catered to this but few seem to.

The other big thing is the lack of job opportunities in smaller cities, solvable via working remotely but still relatively uncommon, particularly for new hires.

> Or you can take a massive pay cut, tank your career, and go live in the middle of nowhere.

Working remotely is an option here (if you go this route, look for a 100% remote company though).

I moved to the middle of nowhere and did not take a paycut. Now I work remotely and I'm saving so much money that I might even take a year off after this job expires.

It still sucks and I hate working, but it's the least bad path that I could find.

I'm a remote worker in middle of nowhere paid a competitive industry salary. Cost of living is ridiculously cheap compared to big metros. If you can't increase your earnings, decreasing costs is just as well.

Hahaha, you think companies in the middle of nowhere don't have cramped, noisy open offices?

At least you can afford peace and quiet at home though, instead of having to live with flat mates and commute via public transport.

Some do. Mine doesn't. I work in an Indianapolis suburb, all devs have their own offices with real doors, and we work at home about 50% of the time (in our large quiet houses).

You can easily make 150k in this environment, where a 250k home is 3k sqft in a good neighborhood. I'm making quite a bit more in the management/director track.

To me, this sounds like "there is no alternative" defense. I don'know whether it is made with the idea of making one's situation feel less miserable, but it is plain wrong.

Considering the ancestor comment and how the situation seems to weight on that person, I would advise to try and find a better situation, because from personal experience, when you start grinding yourself for a job postitve outcomes become very unlikely.

I think, you can ask to take no pay cut: it's a win for the company too, if you move the company will have you an could hire another employee on the free place. I moved into the middle of nowhere without a pay cut.

RedHat's office is in downtown Raleigh. It's not in the middle of nowhere and it's also not a dense, expensive city.

But it's Raleigh > NC > the South > the middle of everywhere I wouldn't want to be :(

Sometimes the (paycheck - cost of living) nets you more money in the smaller city.

We'll all run to remote work, and encase our home offices with layers upon layers of sound proofing.

Meanwhile, I predict the new fad will be airline offices, because who wouldn't want all the fun and adventure of flying at the office? They'll all be sitting in economy class seats and working off tray tables, while the person in front of them leans their seat back and has loud conversations on speakerphone. And it'll be family friendly, too, with every day being "bring your screaming child to work day."

I know this isn't a great solution, but could you try a lightweight pair of headphones, and some relaxing music? Not particularly heavy music mind, but just something you can leave in the background. Maybe a movie soundtrack. I use videogame OSTs but that's not everyone's cup of tea.

This would maybe make the headphone issue more bearable (lightweight - much less uncomfortable for long periods), and the goal isn't to block out all sound, but rather to give your mind something else to focus on from an auditory standpoint. I find, personally, that having a musical anchor makes the task of mentally filtering out the noise much easier; I end up subconsciously following the melody and grooving with the rhythm a bit, but because there's no lyrics, it doesn't pull me out of the task at hand.

Everyone's different, so what works for me might not work for you, but maybe give it a shot for a week and see how effective it is. Worth a try at least.

No. The noise is the businesses responsibility to resolve, not the individual employee. We need spaces which take the needs of employees into account first when creating work spaces, not finance people masquerading as office space gurus.

Sort of, the noise is also your problem to solve if you want to be productive and keep your job in the long term. It's not just the companies problem. Especially as more companies move to this model it's not like you can just leave for a different gig with quieter space as it might not exist.

Therefore you must also adapt.

If by adapt you mean quit, then it wouldn’t be the first time.

It should be, but what do you think the chances are that that is actually going to happen?

Therefore it falls to yourself to improve your environment.

> The noise is the businesses responsibility to resolve, not the individual employee.

This may be a reasonable view for a large company, but they're talking about their experience at a three-person startup. At that scale if there's something that needs to be different you have to step up and change it yourself, and set the culture for the company you're building.

In a three person company, every problem is every person's responsibility to solve. Especially if you're the only one having that problem!

This is one of the reasons I love small companies

Whatever the size of the company, noisy environment is usually the consequence of the choice of office space, as exemplified here.

An employee cannot change this, only suggest.

I’ve never understood how some people believe that the problem of too much noise could be solved by adding more noise.

There’s too much light in my eyes, and dark glasses are uncomfortable. Well, have you tried shining another light at your face? Maybe a different color of light would help.

ha. This comment really brightened my day (pun intended).

Thank you for that.

Your comment seems a bit tongue in cheek and you probably know, but anyway... Theoretically, the brain can get used to certain kinds of regular noise and filter it out, and then, if the disruption is a small sound that occurs irregularly... if you add constant white noise that's louder than the sound, then the sound should get quite literally lost in the noise.

There is an analogy to light that actually applies. Imagine a small green LED in your field of vision that flashes now and then. Might be distracting. But now imagine the room is 100x brighter than that small green LED. You might be unable to perceive the LED anymore. (However, if the problem is, as you state, that there is "too much light", then, yeah, adding more light wouldn't help unless you could somehow create destructive interference.)

Whether all this actually works for a specific person is a different matter. I personally hate listening to white noise, so that wouldn't help me. Perhaps other kinds of noise could work.

White noise is actually very harsh. When people say "white noise" they usually mean softer variants such as brown noise.

I sleep to brown noise (have done so for the past 8 years -- so this is not a fad thing for me), and I use a different brown noise with headphones at work to help me concentrate in a noisy office environment.

I use Noisli profiles to generate these noises, but any number of apps will do the job.

I won't claim it works for everyone, but this combination works very well for me.

p.s. Ear plugs at work also work amazingly well. Low tech and effective.

> Theoretically, the brain can get used to certain kinds of regular noise and filter it out, and then, if the disruption is a small sound that occurs irregularly... if you add constant white noise that's louder than the sound, then the sound should get quite literally lost in the noise.

Just an FYI, while this is basically true for neurotypical people, for some people (for example those with ADHD or who might be on the autism spectrum), there's difficulty filtering, so this ends up just adding cognitive load rather than accomplishing a filtering effect.

To use a dumb visual analogy, imagine you tried to hide some carpet stains by putting another rug over it. Some people can partially see through rugs, and so now they have to deal with the rug _and_ the carpet stains.

Of course this stuff is still worth trying out, ultimately a lot of these kinds of things are deeply personal, and it's pretty easy to try.

White noise machines are recommended for people with sound sensitivities who have trouble falling asleep, including those with ADHD and autism. Whether it works well or exacerbates the issue depends on the individual, but assuming that it would simply add to the cognitive load is a stretch, and I wouldn't be surprised if in fact it worked more often than not.

One of the most popular white noise machines is the Marpac Dohm Classic, which many people (including myself) would vouch for.

I didn't know that this product existed, it's interesting to see such a thing be around in the age of bluetooth speakers:

https://www.amazon.com/Marpac-Classic-White-Noise-Machine/dp...

It's a fan in a box, with a certain shape so that when the fan is spinning it ends up generating a nice sound.

Thanks for the info

I don’t think you’re correct. Stimulating background music (like EDM or video game OSTs) can do wonders for ADHD sufferers as it helps stimulate their brains which helps them focus (this is a similar mechanism to ADHD drugs).

chiptone and EDM might work for some but it would drive many people insane- try techno

> Theoretically, the brain can

What “theory” is this? Because I’ve tried it (not by choice) in practice, many times, over the decades, and never found it to work at all. I’m genuinely curious why people think it could ever work, when empirically it does not.

Theoretically the brain will adapt to working while hanging 100’ in the air, too. I adapt to height fairly quickly and don’t mind working up in the air. Many people apparently do, and no amount of telling them that it’s “theoretically” possible will make them productive workers there.

It seems patently unfair that modern offices picked the one type of distracting sensory input that happens to be my kryptonite.

It's probably a "works for me" mindset accompanied with a mental note of "bug closed".

If you're lucky enough to have that neural protection. Not everyone does. I don't, for instance.

I damaged my hearing trying to have enough sound to drown out the triggering sounds around me. (misophonia got a lot worse during working in open office too)

It's counter-intuitive, no? Actually though, the trick isn't to add more noise. Or... specifically, I suppose we need to first establish that the noise isn't the problem; noise is easy to tune out. Your brain is doing it right now: focus on your surroundings, and odds are there's the low hum of some air conditioner, or the whine of a CRT monitor, or the sound of that florescent ballast down the hall going out, or whatever. You barely even notice these things, because your brain is good at filtering out anything repetitive or constant.

What kills productivity in an office environment is actually signals that cut through that noise. Phones ringing, conversations between coworkers, printers whirling to life, someone opening a cellophane wrapper and chewing on a candy, etc. Most of these things aren't useful, but they're distracting, because your brain is tuned to constantly be on the lookout for new audio signals to shift your focus to. This is probably a survival instinct, as becoming aware of an approaching predator is important to avoid becoming lunch. In an office, the goal isn't thus to add more noise, but to mask the noise, so that it is less distracting.

Music is not "more noise," but more like a big, obvious beacon of focus. You might think of it like a controlled, intentional distraction. It's juuuust enough of an audio signal that your mind can keep its focus in one place, and just barely loud enough that when your coworkers phone rings, it isn't quite so jarring. That tiny, tiny little adjustment in the relative weight of the signals can make all the difference in the world, preventing you from unnecessary context switches throughout your day and helping you to maintain flow while working on a complex task.

It's not perfect, no. Obviously the perfect environment would be 100% in the control of the worker, who could dictate the noise level and comfortable temperature and everything else on a personal level. But, well, the real world isn't perfect, and it can be good to have options. :)

Ever been bothered by a bright clock in your bedroom? Or the bright red light on the smoke detector or thermostat? In a pitch black room, these lights annoy the shit out of me. Do those don't bother you more or less during the daytime in a sunlit room?

Sounds I choose let me create my own auditory environment, one that suits how I want to feel. Sounds my co-workers choose, don't.

Ive got in-ear noise cancelling headphones and they're amazing. I often come up for air to hear a debate going on not far from me. Because they're noise cancelling I can set the volume lower than I would otherwise.

Edit: I play music I know well so it doesn't distract. My wife uses rain/wave sounds. White noise would work for others.

It may seem contradictory, but for me it actually helps. I use a macOS app (Noizio) to get a mixture of different sounds (rain/thunder/fire) and, in combination with noise cancelling headphones, it is the only thing I've found that allows me to thoroughly concentrate in a noisy space.

Same here. I found out that music of any kind not only doesn't do the trick for me, but is counterproductive - it distracts me from trying to focus on the task at hand.

Perception of sound is a differential sense. If you sit in a very quiet room your sensitivity to noise goes up, similar to how your pupils open when it’s dark.

Noise cancelling AirPods and gentle background sounds may provide a smooth enough waveform to be ignored, while stopping the increase in audio sensitivity, and smooth out “spikes” of surrounding noise.

Perception of sound is not just some cumulative scalar, that view is far too simplistic

> I’ve never understood how some people believe that the problem of too much noise could be solved by adding more noise.

They probably believe it because it works for them. Because it works for me.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not saying this to be a jerk. This is not uncommon.

There is a fair chance that your core annoyance is something else.

That is, if you somehow got a perfectly sounds proofed workroom of your own, you would after a while realize that you're still irritable, find it difficult to concentrate etc.

Often, we don't want to face our real problems and assign discomfort to some external thing we have no power over. "If only X was gone, I'd be happy". But when X disappears little changes.

Or it is actually the noise. For some people that is really how it is - I am one one of them

It is also not uncommon for overcrowding to cause stress and irritation. Some people really do need lots of quiet personal space and time alone.

> There is a fair chance that your core annoyance is something else.

People desiring quiet places or isolation to think isn't a particularly new phenomenon, so there's a good chance that this is the core problem.

That said there's a lot of things that can add stress and in isolation this one particular one might not be too bad. But then it becomes an optimization problem, there are many sources of stress that are hard or difficult to solve but the work environment is low hanging fruit and easy to solve so we focus on that.

This is why touring the office is an important part of a job interview, the places with a good environment will be happy to show you around. Fortunately some companies are so clueless they'll even advertise their modern open plan office, you don't even need to apply to those.

Can you provide some research that backs up your claim here? Quiet, distraction-free spaces (libraries) for studying / working have been around roughly forever. Are you suggesting that these spaces provide no tangible benefit, and the millions of people who utilize quiet spaces for concentration are somehow mentally invalid?

I commend you on the achievement of reaching a state of mental nirvana that allows you to concentrate equally in chaotic and quiet environments - very impressive. I would venture to say that the vast majority of the population will never reach this state.

You seem to have read my disclaimer "There is a fair chance that..." as "It is absolutely certain that...".

So, to be clear, your suggestion is—having no personal space, no quiet area, a constantly shifting work environment, for what is presumably a programming profession in a field dominated by introverts, and the poster stating this is a problem to the extent that escape seems a viable alternative—that the source of his or her stress is some unmentioned, unrelated personal problem.

I'm suggesting it's a possibility worth considering.

Since he's also permanently annoyed outside work, non work factors fit the data.

Not a source but a huge multiplier of the effects of stress is a lack of sleep.

In my case, the underlying core annoyance is the lack of deep understanding of my tools. But that isn’t possible to solve without sustained attention.

YMMV. I can relate. When I'm stressed for various non-noise related reasons, I am more easily irritated by noises, and I usually, initially, assume it's the noise.

On the opposite note, I can perform extremely well in noisey environments if I am enjoying what I am doing - like I am able to just tune it out.

Circumstance and other stressors may be a main factor, or it could just be the noise. I imagine it really depends on the person.

I don't think that's true to be honest; sensory overstimulation is a thing with a lot of people, and workspaces should adjust to it accordingly. (there's also sensory processing disorder where it can get so bad people have a breakdown in the grocery store) However, there is also understimulation - some people can't work in a quiet office, as the article itself also points out.

Long story short, a workspace has to cater to multiple different people - shocking, I know.

You are administered random electric shocks throughout the day but ackchyually there is a fair chance that your core annoyance is something else.

>Yes, you can use noise cancelling headphones but: >2. They don't really block all the noise and you live in anxiety waiting for that one blaring ringtone to squeeze through

NC headphones aren't designed to block all noise, only repetitive noise, basically white noise. Other noises, like ringtones, actually are louder or easier to hear on many models of NC headphones, as is speech around you. Noise-cancellation's purpose is to attenuate white noise, such as the drone of your office A/C, or your airplane's engines. It's not meant to block anything else, and if your headphones do, it's because they're also acoustically isolating (e.g., they have bin "cans" over your ears physically blocking noise, but that has nothing to do with NC).

You're generally right (in my experience) regarding ANC but I've found that Sony's WH-1000XM3 over-ear headphones do an excellent job with higher frequencies and "one off" sounds. I'm also a big fan of Mubert, an iOS app that generates non-distracting instrumental sound tracks.

Thanks for the Mubert recommendation. I'm going to give it a go. I've generally found "elevator music" to be quite pleasant. No words or unique instrumentals that distract.

The ironic thing is "noise cancelling" headphone turn down the volume on the things easiest to tune out, and turns up the volume on things that are the most jarring.

Which is why I don't use noise cancelling headphones, instead you need passive blocking of noise, ie: material to dampen the sound from the office.

Sure sucks though.

You can have both in the same headphones. Personally I rather enjoy putting on my headphones and entering my soundless world.

Of course there’s still distractions every 30 minutes, but at least they’re not noise related.

I disagree, I have the Sony's commented above (WH-1000XM3) and everything is muted, while background noise is gone. I regularly have coworkers calling from behind me and I can't hear them.

If you actually have something that jarring out of your control, I would say you have a bigger problem then just "noise".

Probably not a particularly PC comment, but occasionally I am jealous of people who need hearing aids to hear that they can turn off if they need quiet

Considering the link between hearing and cognition I wouldn't be. Hearing loss is linked to cognitive decline and mental health issues.

I use 3M PELTOR X5A Over-The-Head Ear Muffs with 3M Peltor HY80A Gel Ear Cushions. They are comfortable for long periods of time and block all types of noise. They won't make your work environment completely silent, but I am pretty sensitive to noise and they all me to work in an open floor plan office.

>> The Peltor X5A Ear Muff offers the best 37 dB attenuation for use against extremely high noise environments where double protection is required

This seems like a drastic measure - do you require complete silence or is your workplace that noisey?

I'm going to give the advice here that saved my sanity in an open office: use headphones with "passive" noise canceling. I bought a pair of 3M WorkTunes with Bluetooth. They're just passive, sound deadening, hearing protection ear muffs like you would wear on a factory floor or in a construction workplace, with Bluetooth built. It blocks out all noise, not just white noise, and they're much cheaper than ANC head phones.

I wear the WorkTunes, plus ear plugs, plus I play cafe or brown noise through the headphones, plus I sometimes put on music. If that hadn't worked, I was going to go insane from the sound of the keyboard next to me.

Not true anymore for modern NC headphones. They will suppress speech significantly when active.

Have you tried in-ear variants like the bose qc20? I have no problems with them for long periods of time.

Also, as other users have pointed out, noise-canceling just counteracts constant noise like machine hums, and the like. It won't do anything about human speech because it 1.v aries constantly and 2. takes place across a large spectrum of sound. Noise-canceling headphones can adapt but it's always going to lag behind speech or other non-constant sounds like ringtones.

The only recourse there is to use noise-canceling + blast music/pink noise/rain sounds, whatever.

Noise-cancelling headphones + silicon ear plugs.

Excessive by most standards but I (almost) have to have this when working in an open office.

Do you get used to the sounds of your own body? Between my low grade tinnitus and breathing it would drive me insane to just hear myself. Or do you have music on?

How long can you keep that up in a 7hr day (assuming a 1hr lunch break in the middle)?

I second this. I can't use over the ear ones because I'm wearing glasses. Then I got Bose qc20 and it's been working great for me so far. I can use it for a couple of hours without any major issue.

The only minor issues is that moist starts to accumulate in the ear after a while, which I guess isn't a big deal.

Not the qc20 but the WF-1000xm3. In ear just hurts after a while. I do combine the noise cancelling with some background audio. It's the best combination so far.

I bought some of these for plane flights and I'm always amazed at how much it reduces my stress levels when I wear them somewhere else. I feel far less crowded just walking through a supermarket or sitting on a train while wearing them.

Raise the point with your partners, and the co-working space.

Consider alternatives. Libraries can be excellent work environments, if quiet. And talk to staff about getting a quiet area -- many libraries are tending increasingly to "conversations allowed", which can be annoying.

I'd find lack of access to my own frequently used materials, notes, papers, etc., to be frustrating, though.

Many academic libraries (ranging from community college, to public or some private colleges and universities) have quiet spaces.

Off-hours / off-season spaces may be findable, though that can get creative.

I'm rarely out without a few pair of high-efficiency earplugs myself. These can block much (though not all) noise quite effectively. You'll want the ones which block speech specifically, not just high-frequency sounds.

I feel you. I recently changed jobs from an office environment at max capacity and open to the extreme, to one at 1/3 capacity and a lot of nooks and crannies designed for those who need a little space. It's amazing how much less fatiguing the latter environment is.

I even rather like an ambient social environment like a coffee shop. But I’m pretty sure working in close quarters with inside or recruiters would drive me crazy.

I have a 1.5hr commute each morning and night which adds a lot onto my day but I also living in a quiet village and work in central London. Being able to take refuge in the village on evenings and weekends makes the noise in London bearable.

There is also the additional side effect that I have a reasonably large house for the same price that I would have paid for a small room in London.

Even if you account for travel?

Travel does cost me a lot but it’s more than made up for with the size of property in a desirable neighbourhood.

There’s no right or wrong answer here though. Some people might prefer a shorter commute and I can’t blame them for that. For me, I’d rather have a longer commute but live in a larger house in nicer neighbourhood; somewhere quiet to bring my family up.

The added bonus is most IT jobs these days offer remote working so I don’t have to travel into London five days a week if I didn’t want to. Though sometimes the commute itself can be enjoyable because it’s a good chance to catch up on reading or personal programming projects (etc) since it’s 90 minutes of uninterrupted time away from the family.

There are some (higher-end) hearing-aid style ear buds that monitor external sound and filter it out or focus in on local sounds only.

This is far better than the whole totally enclosed ear-muffs + disposable ear buds approach (which does work but creates an uncomfortable pressure on your ears):

https://spectrum.ieee.org/consumer-electronics/audiovideo/he...

> Scenario 2: You find yourself at a popular new restaurant, where loud music and reverberant acoustics make it difficult to hold conversations (even if you don’t have hearing loss). Your hearables are monitoring your mental effort, again by tracking your brain waves, determining when you are struggling to hear. They then appropriately adjust the signal-to-noise ratio and directionality of their built-in mics to make it easier for you to understand what people nearby are saying. These hearables can distinguish your friends from the patrons you wish to ignore, based on audio fingerprints that the device previously collected.

Some of these are still in development or super expensive.

In terms of some practical solutions today, there's a brand called IQbuds ($300-$500) which use a similar strategy and can be custom-molded to fit your ears (just like a hearing aid) so they can be worn over a full workday:

https://www.nuheara.com/iqbuds-boost/

I just got the new AirPod Pros with noise cancellation, and have found them excellent and filtering out a lot of the ambient office noises. I turn them on and the AC whoosh, keyboard clicks and other white noise disappear. I can still hear voices, but they're much quieter and easily defeated with some music. If you haven't tried them it might be a good option, I find them comfortable to wear for hours at a time.

Same, I quite like them. Just a heads up, don't walk the streets with both in. The in ear allows to listen with just one in.

Or just flip on the transparent mode

Pulling one out automatically puts the other in transparent mode

I have them too and they definitely do not cancel keyboard clicks.

>The noise has gotten bad enough that I'm considering quitting my job and running away to a small town.

so, uh, my own solution? requires money, but is probably cheaper than giving up the big city wages (depending on your situation and remote-work opportunities.)

1. giant yellow passive hearing protectors at work with soft music.

Personally, I still kinda suspect that active noise canceling is just placebo. (I'm joking a little here, but passive noise dampening is a thousand times better than active, if you ask me.) Give me passive muffs. You still need some soft music, or your ears will adjust, but getting hearing protection earmuffs with bluetooth means the music can be soft. The other advantage is that nothing says "Don't bother me, I'm working" like giant yellow industrial earmuffs. (I like the '3m worktunes connect' - not exactly audiophile grade, but even with really soft music, it makes the office silent )

MMm. you say you find headphones 'heavy and constricting' - perhaps I should take back my advice. the passive earmuffs are both heavy and constricting. I find it kind of comforting? but if pressure is a problem, you probably won't like them.

2. at home: my own room with a solid door with weather stripping and walls with offset studs and triple pane windows. (weather stripping is super cheap and helps a lot with interior noise. A solid door is rather more expensive, and probably helps more, but as for relief per dollar, weather stripping is hard to beat)

Key here, I think, is that construction is more important than location.

3. I show up and leave work late. I get mornings (well, afternoons) for talking with people, and lots of evening time mostly by myself for actual work.

#2. is obviously pricey, but without it, I'd go insane. Personally, I find newer, well-built apartments to have less noise than older single-pane suburban housing. (but then, I think I have a lower tolerance for traffic noise than most; the neighbor warming up his junker in the morning always super bothered me when I was living in an older SFH. some people are okay with that.)

I've talked about building a sleeping box with noise dampening, but... eh, just paying the money for an apartment with proper noise dampening is doable to me.

I totally agree that noise cancelling for office noise is useless, it works mostly for low frequencies but the "annoying" part of sound from speaking is much higher than at least my headphones can block out. Passive blocking can have even better blocking of the more important frequencies imo.

Ear plugs like ones made by 3M for construction workers has helped me sleep at night and study without distractions. Have you tried them?

If you have a moment, can you share a link or two? There seem to be a number of models and prices. I don't know what's sufficient and what's overkill.

So, for sleeping I'd go for softer plugs like those made by Howard Leight for shooting (Laser Leights) or Moldex Spark Plugs.

Hearing protection always talks about attenuation in terms of dB(A) (A-weighting being a sensible thing to do when measuring perceived sound levels). 30dB(A) is a significant attenuation (logarithmic scale, don't forget). 35dB(A) is quite an improvement over 30dB(A).

For long-term use, ear plugs aren't great. But ear defenders can be had cheaply which will work well; I know of some people who use ear defenders atop in-ear active-noise-cancelling headphones as a double-whammy.

The correct answer is to work/sleep in quiet places, though, but I realise this is fast becoming a luxury.

I agree with all these. If you are choosing one blindly, my preferred earplug for comfort is the Howard Leight Max Lite. Ideally, though, buy a sample pack from someone (like this, https://www.earplugstore.com/unfoamtrialp1.html) and see which one fits your ears and needs best.

Note that there is a considerable amount of technique in using earplugs correctly. You don't just shove them toward your ear and hope for the best. Normally, they are rolled tightly, and then inserted fairly deeply into the ear canal, where they then expand. Have someone demonstrate, watch a video on it, or read the instructions very closely.

I use "Mack's Ultra Soft Foam" for sleeping.

I'm not a huge fan of the foam ear plugs and find 3M's "Peltor Sport Tri-Flange Reusable Earplugs" something that's comfortable for me to wear on long international flights to sleep. The downside of the non-foam design is 26db vs. 32db. They are around $5 for a three-pack.

https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/all-3m-products/~/All...

Get the 3M E-A-Rsoft FX, code ES-01-020. These seem to have the highest attenuation I can find.

Sorry for the late reply, I had a look at what I have. I started off with orange 3M 1100 Foam Ear Plugs [0], but currently gone through two iterations of Moldex Pura-Fit Tapered Foam [1]. My main purchasing motivator is the decibel (dB) rating on the product, which blocks more sound -- which is standardized with Noise Reduction Rating (NRR).

[0] https://www.amazon.com/3M-1100-Foam-Plugs-200-Pair/dp/B008MV... [1] https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BYAP7I

I am finding No. 1 and No. 3 to be absolutely true in my new job (open office). Loved my Bose QC headphones when I was using them occasionally at a coffeshop or on short flights, but for 6-8 hours? I'm finding that I'm leaving work with a headache now. It's making me consider the Airpods Pro since they're not vice-like but do include noise-canceling.

Considering buying the airpods for that same reason. I have a pair of WF-1000xm3’s, the earbud equivalent of Sony’s Bose QC competitor. But they’re bulky and it causes me pain wearing them for longer than an hour. Tried multiple ear tips and even bought some comply foam tips for additional noise isolation and comfort.

I bought WF-1000XM3 a couple of months ago, but as soon as AirPods Pro came out, I decided to give them a try, and never looked back and sold my Sony's. They actually even feel lighter than the original AirPods and are absolutely much comfier than Sony's. I don't have to fiddle with them for a solid minute to get that good fit (that doesn't even approach a "perfect" fit in the end with WF-1000XM3, just "acceptable"), and they don't feel like they are digging deep inside my ear canal to the point where they start hurting after an hour. I like the sound on them more too, but that one is debatable, from what I hear.

I switched from WF-1000xm3s to AirPods Pro and it was the best decision ever (I still love my WMs). They are lighter and much more comfortable. Usually I can't wear in ears more than a couple hours but I could leave APs in all day.

There are less connection drops, no voice announcements like "noise cancellation activated" just a discrete blip, the transition between modes is quite smooth, and the "pass through mode" aka transparency mode feels like you're not wearing anything. And I do find the ANC quite excellent, there's a much less reduced "ringing" you get from other NC gear (could be due to better algorithms, chip, or the mic on the inside that processes noise inside your ear canal). Overall one of the best purchases I've made.

Only if they had better battery... I don't want to buy new expensive headphones every 2 years.

Have you tried the in-ears (the qc20s)? I use those for long periods of time and don't really get any issues. I moreso get fatigued from whatever I'm listening to, so I have to change it up a bit.

Aside from the headaches that wearing over-ear headphones for long can give, they also leave a semi permanent dent in my hair that I absolutely hate. I am so glad that companies are moving towards noise cancelling in-ears now.

Wear headphones that are comfortable to wear for a long time (like big ones that go all around your ear but don't press on your earlobes) and use a white noise generator. I use one that adds like rain and thunder and campfire so it sounds like I'm in a log cabin during a storm and I just crank up the volume to where it drowns everything else out. Literally right now there is jackhammering going on in my office and I can't hear it at all until I take my headphones off. (I use asoftmurmur.com personally but anything should be fine)

When I took a few months off to work on some of my own projects I found that universities have a lot of quite space that is open to the public. Sometimes it's the study area in the main library or in department specific libraries. My local university library also offered a special library card for the public that let me access all the resources in the library including scholarly papers which was even more useful for what I was working on.

Sounds rough, good luck coping. I think you're on the right track with prioritizing break time. The more stressful something is the more of a need to cooldown afterwards.

When I really need silence at work I use ear plugs in addition to construction grade ear muffs. I may look a bit silly but it really does block out almost all sound.

I've done that sometimes, leaving me alone with my tinnitus.

It's still better than the incessant jabbering of phone meetings and other office noise.

Some days, the noise puts me on the verge of another breakdown. And no one in management cares.

Consider connecting wireless headphones to your laptop instead of to your phone

I suggest listening to one of the following:

1. Music you don't already know because you can't hum along to them and won't get distracted by the lyrics (Spotify radios can be great, though they get repetitive if you listen to them a lot)

2. Classical music is great if not too tired otherwise it puts you to sleep

3. Deep / underground house like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz26ohrCNIY&t=2s great if you're cranking at a quantitative problem or coding

4. Instrumental jazz to me is the midpoint between the intensity of listening to house and the absolute serenity of classical music, but ymmv

I have found Soma FM to be excellent for the purpose of masking annoying noises at work, and pay them a small subscription. They have various channels with a variety of useful genres.

To some extent particularly screamy metal has so much noise it works pretty well too. On particularly bad days, Taake was probably the most effective - not only lyrics in an unknown language but a sound level that felt more like ocean waves, completely washing out the surrounding sound landscape.

(of course it helps if one likes this kind of thing, which I do)

I would have to get paid insane amounts of money to put up with this. I don't know how ya'll do it.

I'm wondering if you're dealing with hyperarousal (nothing to do with sexual arousal), especially given the reactions to the pipeline or Jira request. Perhaps a path for your research.

I'm with you - noise cancelling headphones and other tricks like white/brown/bineural noise gets tiring after half an hour or so.

Here's my solution: I listen to relaxing hip-hop in a language I don't understand, through a normal pair of Airpods or other non-noise-cancelling headphones. In my case, this is usually MC Solaar - nice calm delivery, rhythms, and music, and in French, which I barely understand. I think this music is better for me than more regular sounds (or noise cancelling) as the variety means that any noises that do make it through, don't really register. Really helps me zone out and concentrate.

I know this sounds really weird (I almost never tell anyone about this IRL!) but it works for me. YMM(definitely)V :)

(Can I also make another observation? Reading about your irritability with flat-mates and colleagues sounds like you're an introvert, who's just not getting any/enough solitary time. If so, this is a bigger fundamental problem that you need to address - headphones and French hip-hop won't help :) Maybe you should focus on finding a way to build regular quiet and solitude into your schedule, for the sake of your relationships, mental state, and well-being?)

It sounds like the company is being penny-wise, pound-foolish. It absolutely makes sense to spend a few hundred extra per month to have a suitable work environment. I'm sure your increases in productivity will more than offset the increased expenditure. To get the other two to realize how serious this issue is for you, tell them you're seriously considering quitting if they won't get a quiet office.

I would also be anxious if I couldn’t do any any deep thinking in silence. It is unbelievable how bad co-work spaces are for for thinking.

Personally I use my trusty Bose over ear noise cancelling headphones when i’m with a customer that has loud open plan offices. I’ve had my Bose headphones for almost a decade now. Today I use them even when I’m at my office which is quiet But because its open plan I still get distracted and we are working on acoustics however most of us are deep thinking engineers and we have a liberal work from home policy so our work environment is good enough to get stuff done.

I would talk to someone you have value to the startup and people don’t even think about this till its too late.

I'm working at a client right now, where on my floor works an extremely loud person. I got these; 3M E-A-Rsoft FX, model ES-01-020. They are truly amazing and dampen sound with 39 dB, according to 3M.

I've struggled with working in similar environments. For one year (in the last 15) I had my own office and was the most productive during that time.

I'm in an open-office now and use light over-ear headphones (I found the Bose Bluetooth ones good) and listen to white noise (by playing with the frequencies you can usually drown out what's bothering you). Of course my preference would be a quiet space, but this white-noise strategy has worked well for several years now.

> The meeting rooms cost a few hundred and need to be pre-booked.

Is this one of those "we work" type of environments where everything is rented piece meal?

Yes, just not we-work. The only thing that’s free is the instant coffee and milk.

It's probably not even real milk...

"What's wrong with by bones? I always drink plenty of... malk?"

I thought that was absolutely hilarious when I saw it as a kid. Fast-forward a couple of decades and now this is on store shelves: http://malkorganics.com/

Have you considered working at a public library instead? Some have quiet reading rooms that I find are often suitable for working in peace.

I do that on weekends when the noise at home is too much and before the kids come in for reading time at the library.

I buy 33 dB ear plugs in bulk for this reason. I keep some in my briefcase and a backup stash in my glovebox. Game changer.

They aren't perfect, as they tend to amplify sounds from within your own body; I can't drink or eat with them in. However, they are still light-years better than dealing with random throat clearing and chewing.

I really want one of those egg shaped sound-blocking chairs for work. I read in a wing-back chair and it's amazing how much sound deadening it provides.

I get the 3M EAR classic superfit 33s in boxes of 250. Makes a huge difference in my life.

Seconded. I actually use the EAR Classic Plus, and they’re excellent.

I work in a coworking space. They’re not quite comfortable enough to wear continuously all day. If you take periodic breaks, and remove them when you go to the bathroom, get coffee, take a walk, that’s enough make it so you can keep them in while working at your desk.

Breaks are good so I don’t really count this as a negative.

They even perform well in super noisy coffee shops.

Thanks for the suggestion! I'll have to check them out. I use the Howard Leight MAX-1 and they're very comfortable.

Maybe there is a good startup opportunity here - to provide quiet space for those who need to work/study/read/sit in peace. In my hometown, there used to be many such "study rooms" and I saw them pretty much full all the time, yet very very quiet. Silence was strictly enforced.

I use the local library for this. There are some really nice libraries where I live (in Chicago) and they are generally quiet, except for the few that have a kids' area that isn't sufficiently isolated.

I know in some countries there are dedicated study spaces which you can pay to access. That would indeed be nice. Co-working spaces could have served this role except many play up the social aspects and have open office configurations. They do have private office spaces but they are expensive.

I would start working on a plan to finding a quiet space that is yours.

That might mean a small town, or it might mean a $3000/mo+ studio apartment. How do you get to having enough cash flow to afford that space? Can you nix the hotdesking membership? Worst case, can you bail on the startup and join a megacorp?

Are you suggesting a megacorp is more likely to offer private offices?

Megacorp is more likely to have a collection of programmers who sit together and peer pressure people into being quiet.

Does any employer offer private offices during the day to rank-and-file employees? I'm assuming that's an unsolveable problem, but hopefully a salary would make it easier to rent an apartment.

> join a megacorp?

How will that help with the noise problem?

In my experience, noise cancelling headphones can make noise issues worse in some cases because they block ambient/white noises better than they block voices, sirens or other non-repetitive noise. So it just makes the distracting noises that much worse.

correct. the most prominent use case for ancs is during plane trips. but I never use mine for that because I prefer the humming of the engines (literally) over the chatting, whining and music from my copassengers.

Remote work is more popular than ever—I say do it. It’s great for your quality of life.

You don't have to quit! Run away to the small town without telling anyone. Just do it. Then just work from home in perpetuity until you get canned or they accept it!

I could tell you in ten thousand words how many times I've thought about actually trying this.

Recently.

Like...in the last two hours recently.

looks longingly out the window...terminal makes a noise, snaps back to reality, sighs heavily, continues patching

In the long run that's "sort of" what I did. Except openly, publicly to work environment. I work for an employer that encourages remote work now. And yes, live in a much quieter town, about 1500km from where I used to live.... mind, I moved time zones and that's so far been the only real strain.

JVC make memory foam in-ears, they block a lot of noise (and are cheap) those and rain/wind noise are my salvation in an open office.

Noise cancelling headphones are a far from effective. Use passive isolation from earplugs to headphones.

Using both at once is effective. My brother, a naval flight officer, swears by a combination of passive isolation and active noise cancellation. Personally I just use passive, but I have much less noise to contend with than him.

THREE employees? Y'all should just rent a studio apartment. Or a garage.

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