Highs and lows of Lowell Cafe, America’s first cannabis cafe | Hacker News Reader

Highs and lows of Lowell Cafe, America’s first cannabis cafe

scmp.com

70 pointsThevet50 comments

The author of this article describes a room full of introspective patrons staring off into their own worlds. One reason for this is that the pot is just too damn strong for anyone other than habitual consumers. Instead, cafes need to offer 2:1 (cbd:thc) strains with no more than 5% thc for casual consumers. Also, certain types of strains are more introspective than others. They're consuming sativa strains known for psychedelic properties. Further, patrons have chosen a social setting to experience cannabis culture together and yet aren't engaged to share the experience. Live, engaging entertainment could be a huge win. Staff who float around the room engaging those who have drifted, as a shaman or therapist in a clinical setting does, may also help.

Agree completely.

I used to frequent cannabis cafés in London (yes, they exist). Most were run by North African gangs who sold Moroccan hash. THC percentage isn't a thing in the black market, but it was easy enough to smoke throughout the night and still be functional. My experience with those cafés is nothing like the one in this article: it was actually enjoyable.

Most people who drink socially don't drink everclear. They drink beer, wine, or spirits with mixers. Cannabis seems to be the reverse of that nowadays.

I like the everclear analogy!

We're experiencing a product made by the underground cannabis community for that community -- habitual consumers. The tolerance level of a habitual consumer is really high. So, for decades, breeders chose to continue growing the strongest strain, every time, for years and years. Then, when commercial players entered the market, they took those high-thc strains and put them through even greater quality controls, making strains even more potent.

This is changing, but not too quickly as the business-minded people running cannabis companies are still trying to validate their first business model and aren't adapting to demand as quickly as tech entrepreneurs do. Successful 2:1 product lines will attract business and then companies will respond. More craft beer and wine, less everclear. Better experiences in cafes.

The difference is you are diluting your narcotic with water in the case of alcohol, and with burnt plant material in the case of THC.

I, a non-smoker, went to a hookah bar once and already felt disgusted by the mouth-throat-lung experience halfway through the night. I would consider trying a cannabis cafe for the experience of getting high in that setting, but have no interest in smoking for hours. I'd much rather take one hit, see how I feel and take 0.5-2 more based on that

My friend from New York was unpacking a bunch of old boxes in his house in California about a decade after he moved, and he unexpectedly pulled out this sandwich baggie full of weed, with a post-it note stuck on to the outside.

The post-it note read in scrawled handwriting: "TOO STRONG. SAVE FOR LATER."

We both looked at each other and exclaimed "It's later!"

Americans in general seem to be quite engaged in these very high THC strains that give you the zoned out kind of high, as opposed to the more sociable (as you described) low THC and high CBD strains. For a coffeeshop setting, I would have liked it very much if our Dutch coffeeshops had a sense of community, as opposed to being drop-offs for tourists looking to get a quick high in the city.

I’ve read that one consequence of legalization in California has been an explosion of interest in CBD and low THC/ high CBD strains, along with greater interest from women. This surprised a lot of people. In an interview with the owner of Henry’s (sorry no cite), he said that originally the company devoted 5% of grow to such strains, now they’re close to 40%.

Things may be moving in the direction you’re hoping for, at least in CA. It’d be interesting to see what’s happening in other states. But there is some evidence that the market that emerges post legalization is mainly interested in the equivalent of a pint of Pilsner or a glass or two of wine

I disagree - the last 2 years of the legal US marijuana market were arguably dominated by vape carts, which are generally considered lightweight and weak for the connoisseurs of high-THC flower/concentrates. With the lung disease outbreak, it's already remembered as an ugly/dumb fad, but in a sense it validated the market for a product that gives a lighter high.

Vape carts hit very strongly. Most are over 80% THC.

I wonder how much of this has to do with US infrastructure and lifestyle in general. In the majority of the US (and definitely California) you have to drive long distances to do pretty much anything. While it's not as bad as drinking I don't think it's safe or recommended to drive while high.

People in the US also generally have large screen TVs, lots of channels on cable satellite, large living rooms., large refrigerators.. all of which are fairly conducive to using high powered weed and zoning out on your couch.

I replied this in another comment but think it is worth repeating here:

So, while people in the US do want everything bigger and "better", this doesn't apply to casual alcohol consumption. Americans aren't hammering down shots of grain alcohol. For casual drug use, though, there's a wider preference. The cannabis product that growers and breeders are making was crafted for the OG cannabis community. As they make their own strains with mass appeal, those strains will be far friendlier to casual consumption.

I agree, although I think it's not just tolerance level. Until recently, smoking was the most popular way to ingest marijuana. Smoking kind of sucks though, so it's best to smoke as little as possible to get the desired effects. Ironically, the strongest strains are in a way the healthiest for you as you can do a very small amount vs smoking a large quantity of plant material.

That's a good point, though we may be dealing with small amounts regardless. For instance, I read that for one study of tobacco lung cancer, a "moderate" smoker starts at 10 cigarettes a day. (woah). So let's say someone smokes 10 cigarettes a day, every day, and let's say a single cigarette takes 10 moderate drags (I'm getting this by googling and using the first reddit thread I find, I don't smoke).

Ok, so 103010 = 3000 drags a month for a light/moderate smoker.

Now, imagine a casual (2x a month) cannabis user who actually smokes most of a smallish preroll, 6 drags (though they may be deeper). So we're looking 12 drags a month vs 3000.

I have no idea if the extra 8-10 drags from weaker cannabis make a difference vs 1-2 on something stronger, but we're talking about an extremely low dose, either way, compared to any kind of cigarette smoking, maybe low enough that the difference isn't measurable.

I think it’s more that Americans culturally tend to the “extreme sports” mentality in many aspects of their lives. Biggest baddest loudest most intense most successful mosh committed hardest working are all excessively venerated here.

That's not particularly reflected in other forms of intoxication though. A ton of people in the US drink super light beer for instance (vs hard alcohol). They also tend to avoid espresso shots in favor of shake-like products.

I'm not saying you're incorrect but other consumption habits don't always lean toward the most extreme option.

> they also tend to avoid espresso shots in favor of shake-like products.

Maybe they're just competing to see who can have the biggest, sweetest, most extravagant beverage, rather than who can make it the most concentrated. If the name of your coffee beverage takes five minutes to pronounce, you're the coolest cat in town.

I mean there are still plenty of alcoholics and people with beer bellies. Light beer is more conducive to American activities, maybe. If you are sitting out in the hot sun, are you going to start ripping shots or drinking red wine, or a cold beer? A cup of drip coffee is typically stronger than espresso as well.

My original point was that maybe strong weed was more conducive to American activities :)

I feel like one could say the same about cafes in the netherlands. There's no option for "weak" stuff.

How does the cafe staff avoid getting high as heck? Or is getting high from second hand marihuana smoke not a thing?

I’d imagine a proper ventilation system, similar to a cigar lounge, should be fine.

Tolerance builds up rapidly. If you smoke or otherwise ingest every day it stops affecting you as much.

Even outside a weed cafe, food service workers are more likely to be high than not.

Original source: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/figure/10.1080/09540261.2018...

Blog w/o paywall: https://www.marijuanamoment.net/workers-in-these-industries-...

This is truth if I’ve ever seen it. Chefs and line cooks whoa boy that whole industry in the back of the restaurant runs off drugs.

I mean, it's not going to look like a rowdy bar. People are getting stoned. Generally when you start smoking too much, you space out and slow down, and sober up a bit. You get people drinking too much at bars too, doesn't mean you should start cutting your whisky though.

> Also, certain types of strains are more introspective than others.

Hasn't this largely proven to be untrue though ?

You're referring to the blurred classification of indica and sativa. Breeders crossed these strains so often that there is less of a distinction. However, there remain pure sativa and pure indica strains that haven't crossed. Now, industry is using a spectrum to describe where in the sativa-indica spectrum the product experience usually lies. Sativa-leaning product are more psychedelic and introspective.

What makes you say that? Would be curious to read any study about that if you can remember where you heard that.

Ok i will try to seach for it once i get to my home laptop. I thought it was more of a marketing thing than any something backed up scientifically.

Is is scientifically studied?

I agree, it doesn’t sound like much fun. What you’ve described sounds like a much better “cafe” experience.

Which is what this is.

Toronto has had phenomenal weed cafes in the city for at least a decade - well before legalization.

Heck, there’s one (Vapour Central) that’s smack dab in the middle of Yonge and Bloor - about as central as they could get.

These are BOYC - bring your own cannabis - places - they provide bongs for rent and vaporizers like the Volcano, as well as live music and comedy. I recall performing there several times.

The smoking laws in Ontario are strict. I don’t know if we will see the likes of these outside of the grey market here in Toronto - but the grey market ones are great for what they are. Again - nothing special, especially now that it’s legal. It’s a bar but with weed. I mean; what are you really expecting? But if you enjoy it, they’re good, and are definitely a cool cultural experience.

Stand up comedy in front of a bunch of stoned Terrawna folk would be so good for the improv ego. Laughs all around. Never a bad joke.

Don't forget how long Hot Box has been around in Kensington Market. I don't know when they opened shop, but it was definitely before legalization was on the visible horizon.

I've been talking about this concept with my girlfriend a lot lately. Why aren't there any dispensaries in WA where you can buy a preroll and just sit and chill at the store like a coffee shop?

It must be regulations preventing it I assume?

I thought it was illegal to smoke inside a business in pretty much every state now.

I was thinking some kind of covered patio with those outdoor heaters for winter would be a way around it but now I'm more curious about how they're able to sell food and allow people to smoke inside.

At any rate I hope this becomes more popular just at price ranges that aren't so hipster LA

This is an easily searchable answer: https://www.tripsavvy.com/washington-marijuana-smoking-regul...

https://www.thestranger.com/green-guide-spring-2018/2018/04/...

https://lcb.wa.gov/mj-education/know-the-law

it might or might not be a good idea to do some research before asking others to do research for you

Indeed, I'd sign up for that sociable experience. There used to be (in the pre-legalization days) speakeasy-type places you could go to smoke and enjoy; live music, fruit juice on tap, that kind of thing. But nowadays it is all but impossible to find, being made in many cases (at least on the west coast) explicitly illegal. Those places allowed a different kind of socialization that is still just as legitimate as a bar full of strangers talking about sports. Think collective artwork and experimental music. Some day...

I'm not sure on the details but just throwing out what I've seen in NY. Smoke shops around here seem to allow smoking indoors, I assume there are special provisions for that type of business.

There is also a bar around here that has a separate smoking room. They have a large air filtration system hanging from the ceiling in there, not sure if thats why they can get away with it. There is even a little door in the wall where they can serve drinks to you while you're in there.

I believe a separate room (sealed with automatic closing door) and an air extractor/scrubber is required for indoors usage. Where I live, you can offer a smoking section outdoors, but honestly, the air extractors are pretty cheap and help avoid adjacent non-smoking patrons from being bothered. They should be used both indoors and outdoors in my view.

Almost certainly regulations. There's a cafe/dispensary combination in Redmond, but all of the various parts are separated.

For one thing, since pot takes a long time to leave your system, police could probably pull over every single patron and they'd meet the legal definition of a marijuana DUI.

Choice quote for the article:

>Mostly, what Lowell Cafe taught me is that I am getting old. I can’t tell you how long we stayed at the cafe, though I doubt we came near to reaching our allotted 90 minutes.

A guy that used to smoke copious amounts of weed before he was 21, once again dives into the culture, with an inept guide, and quickly succumbs to the potency of modern strains.

It would be nice to have a counter-take from his friend who was supposed to be his guide (and did a terrible job from what I could see).

And I totally agree with the commenter who said the cafe should offer strains of lesser potency - and also have a staff knowledgable enough to guide people towards strains suited to their background and needs/wants. It does sound like the cafe has work to do in this regard and I would say this aspect would be a good take-away review, but instead the author just focused on his own negative reaction to super-strong weed his friend suggested.

Bummer.

These people are going to the bar and ordering the whole margarita pitcher to themselves. If your tolerance is zero, one hit. Maybe 3. See how it goes from there.

On a counter point, lower % products could be sold at a discount, but the worry is if they end up being sold at current pricing, and the existing strains bump into another price bracket. Cafes in trendy cities would see their customers all the same, but they'd end up being the tourist stop, like Medmen which just cut 20% of their staff recently.

Your ability to handle weed has nothing to do with age, not to mention smoking before 21 is probably very bad in the long run. Your body gets used to copious amounts of THC if you just keep smoking every day for some time, probably 6 months to a year. Everyone can do it, imho, but nobody even considers it because of the social taboo. Everyone is ok with drinking caffeine till the point you get headaches if you stop, but smoking a joint a day is still seen under negative light.

I agree and it was what I was trying to point out. I wasn't focused on the age of the smoker at all but the length of time it had been for him as a 'regular' smoker. He obviously needed more curation and guidance.

I was probably a bit too snarky in my comment which made it come off as being focused on his age - hope this helps clear the air on that point.

I see, I may have misread it np. Yeah dosage is always the key.

The author states that the food isn't very good, and reaches the conclusion that:

  > the experience just didn’t feel that special.

interesting review; I'm glad he went and shared the experience.

Any better URLs for this story?

Different article, same topic, from the NYT: https://outline.com/WngSrf

Or try the SCMP's "print" link. It has less heavy javascript, no scroll jacking, and no "read the whole article" nonsense:

https://www.scmp.com/print/lifestyle/food-drink/article/3037... (I'd argue for changing the linked story to this)

first? hardly

I hate when people refer to the United States as “America”. Very misleading.

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