"I'm so glad this model has a touchbar"
"I would buy a dell xps but only if it had a touchbar"
things no one ever said.
"I would buy a dell xps but only if it had a touchbar"
things no one ever said.
A couple of years later and I'm a convert. If I had to buy a new MBP today I would definitely make sure it has a touchbar. It turns out app makers have found some nifty uses for it, like the ability to quickly mute/unmute when in conference calls, quickly changing volume/brightness, stepping through code while debugging etc etc. These are seemingly insignificant quality of life improvements, but I definitely miss them when on a machine without a touchbar. Conversely I haven't missed the Fn-keys, not even once.
That hardware esc key looks tasty though, I hope they bring that to the 13" model.
If the external keyboard had a TouchBar and I would start incorporating it into my workflow I can see it's use-fullness.
I usually put my laptop in front of me with an external screen above it. That way I get used to the laptop keyboard and can feel right at home in a conference room or wherever.
Which is honestly interesting; it seems almost like they’re suggesting that this could grow into a larger feature, where Sidecar is really a kind of “Remote Touch Bar.app”, and you could add larger Touch Bar controls to your app that are only visible through Sidecar. (So you could have OS-level support for e.g. DAWs to display their VSTs onto your iPad for direct manipulation, without needing their own iPad OS app.)
———
I should note, as an aside, that Sidecar lets you keyboard on the Mac host through an iPad’s attached keyboard-case, but doesn’t really treat finger-gestures done on the iPad screen in the Sidecar app as being equivalent to mouse touchpad gestures on the host.
I’m wondering if that’s a conscious design choice, and whether someone at Apple is thinking that the “new HCI paradigm” for desktops will involve still having an external Bluetooth trackpad, but no external Bluetooth keyboard, with that role instead being served by an iPad with a keyboard-case attached to it.
That’d kind of fit—it enables all five(!) interaction methodologies Apple currently has: mouse gestures, keyboard commands, touch inputs, pencil inputs, and touch-bar controls.
But, importantly, it does so while entirely avoiding “gorilla arm” (unlike the huge Microsoft Surface Studio), because your touch surface is small and on the table in front of you, rather than “being” the display. (For most Sidecar iPad gestures, even with a full-sized iPad Pro, you never really have to lift your arm off the table.)
In Apple’s envisioned desktop paradigm, touch is seemingly an input method that you get from a separate input device—one that happens to have a screen—rather than touch being just a “way to do” mousing.
Most apps don't use it very well though - I actually quite dislike Safari's overcomplicated tab buttons - I can't make out anything so it's basically useless, and I use cmd left arrow to go back not the touchbar button.
I would love to have a hardware escape key. But despite the shitty butterfly keyboard issues I'm currently going through I want to keep this Macbook as long as possible.
Well, these have physical buttons pre-touchbar, so the touchbar is definitely slower since it requires two clicks (one to summon the slider) and you have to look at it instead of just feeling it.
I can't do the former, but I can absolutely do the latter. I can change the volume and brightness without looking down, and do so all the time.
Maybe I'm unusual, but I don't think I am—it's not that hard to learn by feel which keys are towards the opposite ends of the top row.
What I can't do without looking is access the middle keys, namely F4–F9. If Apple wanted to put a touch-bar there, I'd find that perfectly acceptable—I wouldn't consider it a downgrade, at least. The bar would be pretty small by that point though.
I'm sure the lack of a touchbar is very annoying to people who have taken such a class but I'm skeptical that most people, or even a significant portion of developers, have taken computer typing.
I went with a 13" Air this time around. I still have physical function keys, and the fingerprint reader which I like.
Unfortunately, I'm still subject to the quality problems. I'm four months post-purchase, two weeks out of my first keyboard repair(!), and my caps lock and Q keys are already starting to go. :(
The biggest thing I miss about tactile keyboards (on a phone, anyway) is the no-look interaction without necessitating input. Maybe tactile navigation is the term. RIP HTC Tilt2.
Learn keyboard shortcuts, and no one needs a touch bar.
The touch bar works best for things accessed sufficiently infrequently that muscle memory won't be a thing.
I think the touchbar is a cool idea and I loved that Apple explored it innovated. But I also think that ultimately it's not a good idea and good design. Particularly for the power users.
Then again, I hardly ever use the touchbar either.
I tried to give this a good go. I remembered when I was the young kid thinking about all those old fogies who could not adapt to changing technologies, and now, I am the one yelling "get off the lawn!"
I can find out, sure, but my experience tells me I won’t, so for me the Touch bar is a win, simply from a discoverability standpoint.
I think what the touchbar brings is always active tutorial/reminder as to what's possible with the touchbar. Due to it's very nature you don't have to be taught what's on there, you can see, you then don't have to remember/rely on building up muscle memory.
I imagine it sucks for accessibility. I'd still want one before my faculties faulter, I imagine I'd get some use out of it with my IDE.
I was part of the spell correction team at Google, and we made sure that we aren't overly aggressive even though lots of people mistype their web query.
Nowdays I find it much harder to research rare things on Google, and I have to undo the automatic correction that the spell corrector does all the time (which is OK as long as it's easy to undo).
I'm more ok with the extra step, if it's my fault for misspelling.
Less so if I have to take an extra step to correct Google's inaccurate "correction."
If you see these kind of easy-to-correct mistakes, it probably means that the spell corrector wasn't given that big attention in the past 10 years.
I was working on URL corrections part that didn’t need to use segmentation, so I don’t know the details though.
I know at this point it's mostly marketing, but we are talking about a "pro" model.
In any case, it is very non-obvious that removing the function keys used by power user and non-power user alike (often for work) is necessary for the survival of the company.
It is also very non-obvious why the function keys had to be removed for a touchbar to be added to an already relatively expensive piece of hardware. The touch-bar/function keys are already non-reachable from the home row for most people; so what's another row? I think this was a design-oriented decision, not a regular-user-centric one.
It does also provide some useful feedback as it can display things, too.
I buy what people say that it's way better for scrubbing video/audio if you do that a lot (lots of people previously bought special-purpose accessories for the same)... and mostly worse otherwise.
Essentially a partial fusion of the two things would be physical keys with screens on top for dynamical renaming. but that would have its own problems.
Someone in a related thread said the app-specific keys are only available when the app has focus, so wouldn't you have the status of the app in front of you anyway?
In any case, I found the statement funny, because touch is flakey for me, so I never know what impact pressing a touch key will have.
And as TouchBar is a per app custom display, you'd have to look down at your keyboard to see the current status... of anything.
It’s half an inch away from the bottom edge of the screen, but a considerably longer distance away from the things a person usually looks at when working.
Making scrubbers for audio/video (more) physical is nice, since scrubbing video with a mouse usually requires that you first move the mouse to wherever the video player puts its scrubber, and scrubbing with the keyboard usually requires multi-key combos and always has the “wrong” granularity. (It’s also helpful in that you can now combine this scrubbing in a gesture with mouse movement, e.g. picking up a clip from your library in iMovie, scrubbing through the timeline to scroll it to the right position, and then moving the mouse over to the timeline and dropping it. That’s basically an impossible gesture with mouse-movements alone; you’re left to hover the clip over the scroll-edge of the timeline and wait for it to accelerate its scrolling [and then usually overshoot].)
Come to think of it, Sublime Text and other IDEs with a minimap could display it (rotated to horizontal) on the touch-bar, and let you scrub on it, too. Do they?
The basic VLC two-finger scroll scrubbing works way better.
So for me, the Touch Bar makes these contextual commands discoverable, and that’s worth more than the tactility of physical keys. Doesn’t matter if I can touch without looking, if I don’t know what the keys do. Besides, after a couple of years with the Touch Bar I feel like muscle memory seems to work about the same anyway, I never have to look for the mute button in Zoom for instance, I know where it is.
Thanks for challenging my comment, prompting me to (hopefully) clarify!
I do have touchbar envy! I tend not to look at my keyboard too much on desktop, but when on a laptop it's definitely in my peripheral vision and would hopefully encourage me to learn it's shortcuts. There's a lot of UX work involved to make it all work perfectly though. App's especially, shouldn't just use the touchbar, they should make it easier with visual in app reminders about what's down there. They should do this with the standard FN-keys too for us non-touchbar folk. I'm a big fan of having keyboard shortcuts shown on screen UI's.
There's no denying it can do more in than Fn-keys.
i never type with capslock on, and find using it for escape helps my vim workflow
(Edit: In case anyone else is wondering the same things, the main answers seem to be (1) on manual typewriters, both the shift and capslock needed to physically lift the entire carriage, and so required more force and was for some users a two-finger operation; and (2) all the buttons on the sides of the letters simply fill space to the edges, if we shorten the capslock, we'd need to put something else there or we'd move the A.)
It is not working well: the very limited travel on the keys is not giving my fingers the feedback that I actually hit the "esc" key (capslock). It introduces errors.
I'd probably have to live with this laptop for a while though. I don't think the startup I work for is going to buy a new MBP for me anytime soon.
Being able to go to 32 GB will be nice though. Up until this 2019 MBP, I had seriously looked into switching back to a Linux laptop.
Nowadays that I am working with Elixir, multi-core is much more appreciated :-D
It's a solution looking for a problem. It's garbage.
Maybe I've just had a limited, poor experience with it, but from the apps I've used these functions are only available on the touchbar when the app is focused... which has the controls anyway.
I was using Skype for Business and it had the audio controls in the touch bar, and also on the screen about 1.5" inches above the touchbar. I wanted to mute and unmute when I had the app in the background, but I couldn't. Useless.
So now I have a touchbar that I can't do anything with that I couldn't already do before it.
But in all fairness, the F-keys on a mac never really worked like function keys, they've always been more of a row of OSX-keys. I can understand why Apple felt a need to innovate that space, but I am not impressed.
I'm so glad this model has a Touch Bar.
I have seen numerous people who have a MBP 2016 or later which just can't use computers without the Touch Bar experience.
If somebody doesn't find it useful, that's OK, but please, there are a lot of people (who doesn't loudly complain at HN) that finds the Touch Bar useful & incorporates it in one's workflow.
I for myself uses my Touch Bar extensively, from when I'm using Emacs (with a bit of scripting & BTT), Terminal.app, Safari, MS Office Suite, and on and on and on.
I really won't care if Apple would release a MBP without one, but I'm worried Apple will remove the (IMO very useful) concept altogether just because of the loud complainers on the net (like the butterfly mechanism).
Something that seems to satisfy users _and_ is less costly seems to be a no-brainer business decision.
I used Better Touch Tool[1] to add the buttons that execute the scripts.
Hmm, I think I've never used my ESC key when using Emacs, I bind Ctrl to Caps-Lock and call it a day.
BTW, I also frequently (~3-4 times a day) use vim, and I never found it hard to edit with the Touch Bar Esc key. I can find the Esc location without looking, I'm pretty sure anyone can do that. It's just simple: just press the most left part. The non-display part left on the esc button display also works as the esc key, so no problem with that.
(Yes, and that's why I believe that people who hate the Touch Bar b.c. of the no Esc key have never used the MBP. It's really a non-issue.)
It was the thing that finally got me to rebind my mode switch to `jj`. Which works great, until the keyboard decides that "j" is the key it's going to double that day, then it's very frustrating... Fortunately today the keys it has decided to double are "bb" and "88"
There’s no physical feedback for the escape touchbar area even after you learn to strike it without looking. It sucks.
Ah, I also agree that it's a problem. For now, I use the HapticKey[0] app to mitigate the problem. It's wonderful.
For you. It's a non-issue, for you. That doesn't make other people's experience invalid.
It's very useful to switch input layouts.
Reading through the comments here, it’s amusing to see how many people make assumptions about how things should be just because that’s how they work.
Someone above claimed that not being able to blind type function keys shows severe keyboard incompetence, something all trained computer typists should be able to do.
Well what about us poor souls who are trained mechanical typewriter typists? We didn’t have function keys?
The age discrimination is real!
This works pretty great, especially since eg. ctrl + backspace (I don't know about Macs, does cmd + backspace work?) deletes the entire last word.
Without remapping the capslock you need both hands to execute this shortcut, which makes it much less practical.
Slightly confused emacs user.
Especially things like Esc : (which is Esc then Shift-;) is surely easier to type than Alt-Shift-;.
about butterfly switches... garbage
The touchbar is a flawed design concept imho. The entire reason I touch type is so that I don't have to look down from my screen. My eyes remain on the screen for 99% of the time I am working. It's jarring and discontinuous for me to have to look down to use the touchbar. That's why I personally never liked it. I think the tactile feedback of a real physical button is essential.
I think Apple realizes this already to some extent because they went and added a physical escape key.
I think this sentiment holds true for function keys in general. I the vast majority of people never used them.
Yeah, and I believe that the fn-keys are the exact symptom. I haven't encountered anyone that uses fn-keys to it's full potential (or at least, more than the Touch Bar can provide).
> The touchbar is a flawed design concept imho. The entire reason I touch type is so that I don't have to look down from my screen.
For simple actions, gaining muscle-memory on Touch Bar virtual buttons are possible. (I myself don't look the Touch Bar when performing simple & repetitive actions like open new Tab, or when pressing the escape key.)
> It's jarring and discontinuous for me to have to look down to use the touchbar.
Well, isn't it something like saying that it's discontinuous to move my hands from the keyboard to the trackpad to operate some GUI app? It's a glance away, and mostly the Touch Bar's actions are predictable & you know when you use it (for example, editing the formatting of some text in the MS Office Suite, or opening the emoji selector, or selecting autocomplete, etc...).
> That's why I personally never liked it.
Yeah, the feature has a variety of tastes. I think I can understand why some people just don't like it, but...
> I think the tactile feedback of a real physical button is essential.
I personally use HapticKey[0] for that.
I use Vimium for browsing, liberally use keyboard shortcuts and use Vim/vim extensions in other IDE's. So my trackpad use is very limited indeed because I find it discontinuous. But I think the trackpad is much better than the touchbar at least because it's huge, you don't have to precisely touch it in any particular spot, unlike the touchbar.
On my personal lenovo laptop I don't use the trackpad at all and use the trackpoint because it's an easier/faster transition than using the touchpad.
Absolutely, and Apple put function keys in that category. Yeah, maybe you touch-type those keys way up there at the top, but I'd bet a paycheck that the vast majority of MacBook users will look down before hitting a function key. I've touched typed since I learned on manual typewriters, and I still can't reliably hit the one I want blindly.
Doesn't matter anyway, as soon as I Cmd-Tab to annother app, the key functions all change anyway. But those handy "Fx" labels stay exactly the same despite the function change. But since it's always been this way, it is therefore a superior design and should not be changed.
The touchbar for sure is lacking something, not sure what though. I agree with apple that the fn row could be utilised better so I applaud them for trying something, not sure if the touchbar is the right way though but should apple stick with it and keep going in the right direction again I will for sure customise the hell out of the touchbar.
Wait, that might not work for me -- I use emacs in a terminal.
The first got a full replacement of mainboard, keyboard and battery after short circuiting.
The second came with a broken hinge cover out of the box and there still seems to be a driver problem I haven't figured out (random lags up to 5 seconds or so but usually less multiple times a week if not multiple times a day).
Just my experience though. Have good experience with Latitude though, so this is not to say you should avoid Dell entirely.
I have heard the XPS 15s tend to have more "issues."
I don't know about the battery but the hinge was certainly a problem with the line in general, since it was a flimsy plastic thing unable to hold the weight of the 4k screen it came with...I'd be a bit surprised if that hasn't been fixed in the around 2.5 years since I bought it though.
I saw companies repeating the same mistake times and times again. I'd call it a "Mercedes disease." Mercedes 600 series used to be a supercar of the time, but the moment Mercedes management saw that Americans are OK with it being a regular consumer level car, they made Mercedes the reputation it has in US now "expensive and disposable."
S classe is still a luxury car, but under the skin there is nothing really special about it, and it could've easily sold for half the price if not for Mercedes logo on it. Most of clientele for S600 are the people who are just fine with paying extra $50k for the badge, and there are a whack a lot of them in the US.
I'd say the overoptimisation and product management are the issue. Quoting myself:
> See, a first reduction from ~64Wh to 62Wh might've not been even visible and been a valid "product management" decision, and not impacted the sales.
> A second cut from 62 to 56 might've only deterred few power users, and could also be validated from the same standpoint, if evaluated without knowledge of the context.
> But the third cut from 56 to 52 will blow up, despite the rest of the product getting the biggest year on year improvement ever.
A decision to cut the battery a tiny little bit to save some pennies might've made sense business-wise every single time, but it did cut deep into the positive image of the product.
Lack of touchbar is not one of those good reasons.
Intellij, Outlook and Apple's own programs integrate it very well.
Phyisical keys are great but 12 buttons labelled F1 to F12 with different functions depending on the program also isn't he pinnacle of UX.
>Phyisical keys are great but 12 buttons labelled F1 to F12 with different functions depending on the program also isn't he pinnacle of UX
x1000. Function keys have almost always been useless to me. Once in a while I will remember what one is mapped to and use it, but for the most part they go unused.
Pretty much everyone I know and every workplace I've seen has proper monitors and keyboards for everyone (developers included). A laptop has terrible ergonomics. That makes the touchbar a bit pointless, except when working on a train or plane, or at a meeting or conference.
I have a computer room / office as well that's a really nice setup, but I prefer sitting in the recliner.
(For what it's worth, I have one external monitor at work and run my MBP closed, with an external keyboard -- up until last week a Matias "Laptop Pro" mechanical, but ironically, the Matias developed a seriously malfunctioning key before the butterfly keyboard did. Currently I'm using a "full-sized" Magic keyboard there.)
On previous MBPs you still had to touch the fn key to use F1 etc... I do the same on my newer Mac. Press FN and you get what you need back.
Personally I don’t see why they get all the hate. It’s a little gimmicky but I don’t dislike it. The keyboard was my biggest gripe but Apple replaced it for free in a couple days.
It's just a showstopper for a lot of us that it's another screen you have to look at. I don't want my eyes to leave the main screen. It's like if they tried to turn the trackpad into a screen: no matter how much functionality it might have, it's still somewhere I don't want to have to look when I'm using a computer.
I also was amazed at how unused it was. You probably named the only apps that use the touchbar because nothing on her computer did. And if they did, it was just cloned UI of UI that the main screen already had. I think the only useful usecase I've noticed is that the touchbar will show the url of the current video when you fullscreen it, if I want to damn it with faint praise.
For personal use I use it on my lap in a chair or on the couch. The extra time it takes to look down is not a show stopper. Switching tabs is nice in Safari because you get a slight preview and it’s also great for media controls.
Do you work on your MPB and do you use external monitors? What apps do you use the function keys for?
If you think it’s unused then take a look at these 3rd party apps.[1] Pock looks pretty cool.
[1] https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/best-touch-bar-apps-...
If I wanted a super-sexy fn experience, I'd have function keys with leds for changeable icons, and a bigger touchbar above it for app-specific bling.
And I'd drop the size of the touchpad. That thing is too big, the retina one was more than adequate.
And there's no option to get legacy ports, but it's Apple, ports are a religious jihad not a customer convenience.\.
things every pro user said, since the invention of laptops, for every brand.
Yes it's a little gimmicky, main feature being that you can swap between customized buttons and ad-hoc sliders when adjusting things. But still nice that they didn't throw everything aboard and manage to compromise between reintroducing ESC and keeping innovation.
Rather then getting hung up on hating, learn to like it. Pretty useful if you give it a chance.