Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin | Hacker News Reader

Tesla’s European gigafactory will be built in Berlin

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It is great news for Berlin (and Brandenburg) as it will bring (big) money and attract talent. It might even attract people from Poland which is only an hour drive away and has a large pool of very talented and experienced engineers. So far besides maybe Siemens there wasn't too much industry here, which is more present in the south of the country.

Being outside of the city center it won't contribute too much to gentrification and probably it will help Brandenburg getting more people to live there, pay taxes, buy property, shop, etc.

So far reactions have been neutral to good, which by Berlin standards is an amazing result.

I kind of wonder if the decision of bringing the factory to Berlin wasn't based on the amount of software engineering talent that is available, more than the more traditional engineers.

In any case, I'm happy about Tesla coming to Germany, interesting times!

I think it makes sense from that angle but also from the angle that Germany is rich grounds for poaching people that are currently working for one of the other big car manufacturers. E.g. VW just opened a huge plant for producing their EVs in Zwickau which would about 300km away.

Brandenburg as a state is an interesting. Crucially, it's not the state of Berlin (Berlin is s city state within the German federation). That means access to lots of grants/subsidies and also that they are somewhat shielded from the chaotic governance in Berlin.

> (Berlin is s city state within the German federation).

Is that a more literal translation of Bundesrepublik Deutschland?

In English, Germany is normally referred to as Federal Republic of Germany?

Yes, Germany is a federation of states. I think there are about 16 of them. They have their own governments, elections, etc. A few of those are city states (Berlin, Hamburg,...). Here's a list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_of_Germany

The location Tesla picked is just outside of Berlin in the state of Brandenburg.

well it's a federation by name, unfortunatly most useful things aren't really as federalist as it should be.

that's why some things in germany are somewhat broken. some states want their autonomy, but this autonomy makes some things stupid, like our school politics (which are done by our states) and/or our public transport companies can be operated by states which sometimes just can't work (db is not)

germany actually has the same problem as the eu. states want to be as autonomous as possible, no matter the risks. and changes to this are seen as really bad, because people do not like "einheitsbrei".

No, Federal Republic is the correct term (and the literal translation of Bundesrepublik).

A federal republic is a form of federation, so calling Germany a federation of states is not wrong. Neither is calling it a federal republic more correct; just more specific.

Mercedes-Benz/Daimler also opened a software company in Berlin ~two years ago (MBition GmbH) that's in fast growth mode.

It’s interesting what kind of talent one needs for a factory. Engineers? I doubt... These will be simple workers, couple equipment operators with some education. All the blueprints are coming from Tesla’s HQ anyway, so not much engineering needed. There is also Tesla in Germany that does all the engineering: https://teslagrohmannautomation.de/de/

You are thinking of engineering the cars itself. However, in a factory like this, engineering is much more than that. Engineering, maintaining, and improving the factory won't be an exclusive gig from across the Atlantic (+ Great Plains + Rockys).

Aside from that, Brandenburg is rich grounds for the other staff a factory needs. You can combine cheaper EU-labor with mid-range jobs very well in Germany.

The only thing Tesla could face which it wont like are unions and workers rights because Germans sure won't put up with 100 hour work weeks or similar business practices.

Having real engineers with 6 years education on assembly lines is very important, and I'd say that's one of the reasons why China has so much success in manufacturing.

Without engineers among line workforce, there will be nobody to spot and correct tiny manufacturing defects and mistakes in the design that would otherwise be quietly "duct taped" and forgotten.

For my 10 years in OEM manufacturing, I haven't seen a single design that the factory people didn't send back to the client without a long "to fix" list. And those designs were coming from rather serious clients, with serious in house engineering.

Shows you how bad Brexit is for the UK that Tesla chose Germany over the UK.

Maybe like Italy we need reserved seats in the House of Lords for Engineering and STEM peers.

I think we shouldn’t underestimate the amount of engineering knowledge needed on-site in a factory as big as this one.

You need lots of blue-collar-with-a-doctorate engineers. Batteries are closer to a chemical plant than car manufacturing.

A very important aspect you raise and another reason that falls into Germany's favour.

That is really interesting. What expertise are you speaking from?

I work in a factory and support factories in other countries. Headquarters have many engineers, satellite factories have only dozen. Mostly for maintenance and quality control. All the thinking and decision making happens in HQ.

Edit: typos

>It is great news for Berlin (and Brandenburg) as it will bring (big) money and attract talent.

Like the Gigafactory 2 in Buffalo did for New York state?:

But according to SolarCity’s financial statements, state officials “quietly issued a series of 10 amendments” to Tesla, allowing the high-tech jobs to become regular positions and requiring just 500 hires within two years -- down from 900. Tesla told Vanity Fair it was still responsible for creating 5,000 jobs, but the timing for the additional jobs has been extended to 10 years after the factory’s completion.

SolarCity was the center of the Buffalo Billion corruption probe by federal prosecutors, which last year led to high-profile bribery convictions of several people, including Louis Ciminelli, whose firm won the solar plant construction deal.

https://www.syracuse.com/state/2019/08/elon-musk-is-full-of-...

It's definitely positive, although I'm also slightly disappointed. I think the original plan was to build it near Dresden. That would have been quite a signal, but on the other hand it might be good for it to be successful to have it connected with the metropolitan region Berlin/Brandenburg.

One important difference between Brandenburg and Saxony that I'm guessing may have played a role: There is a component of the corporate tax called "Gewerbesteuer" which, in Brandenburg, is set at city-level and differs widely from city to city, whereas in Saxony it is high across the board. My guess would be that there must have been a mayor somewhere in Brandenburg that made them an offer that no mayor in Saxony could compete with.

It's set at a city/regional level in all of Germany, there are just very few areas that offer very low taxes. Those tend to be close to large cities to get companies to move headquarters out of the city. Hamburg and Frankfurt also have areas with one of the lowest tax rates just outside of city limits (not sure if Munich has one).

In the end, I'm not sure if it makes such a big difference, other incentives, land prices and availability of talent probably outweighs this.

...but in the countries of the former east there is barely any variation, whereas in Bavaria, Baden-Württemberg and Brandenburg there is massive variation. Also, you'd expect that in the countries of the former east, taxes would be lower to attract more business activity, but the opposite is the case, since those tend to have more left-leaning leadership.

> which by Berlin standards is an amazing result.

They only, and rightfully, get pissed when mega corps like google/amazon come in the city center, buy a 40 storey building and starts paying everyone 100% more than the average for the same position.

I don't see the problem there comrade :-)

From comments on here people have been saying the developers are seen as the poor cousins to traditional Engineers.

How is creating highly paid jobs in the city center bad?

Rent prices doubled since early 2010. Berlin is not mountain view, normal people actually live here and can't afford it anymore.

It highly increases rents and thus destroys neighborhoods and communities

it's not only US megacorps, a lot of well funded tech companies pay salaries close to what Amazon or Google pay and they have to as that's what the market demands. As a software engineer in Berlin i can't really say i don't like that though. Berlin rents might have doubled since 2010, but they were also way below other german capitals due to Berlins history, so the rents coming to the same level as say Hamburg or Munich was just a matter of time anyway. In the end it creates value for the city, higher tax income, more spending. Yes, gentrification is a problem, but it's far less of a problem here then in other major capitals.

Could you name a few companies in Berlin that pay "close to faang" level in Berlin?

I don't know what Google pays for a Senior engineer, but from what I know about Amazon it's about 70-100k. Other companies that pay on this level:

- Zalando

- HERE Technologies

- N26

- Delivery Hero

- Soundcloud

- VW/Mercedes/Porsche backend startups (Proshare, Coup, Porsche Digital Lab)

And many smaller ones. From my circle, most Senior engineers earn in the 70-100k range total compensation. Since Berlin is still quite affordable, that allows a good standard of living.

I'm guessing you're being sarcastic?

I'm not, I don't want Berlin to become SF, rent prices are high enough. The fact that these companies do everything they can to not pay tax (aka give back to the local economy) is already enough for most people to tell them to fuck off.

> So far besides maybe Siemens there wasn't too much industry here, which is more present in the south of the country.

Siemens is big in Niedersachsen (e.g. Braunschweig) so it's more about East/West divide.

Some background for the non-German readers: Within Germany there's still a very noticeable divide between east and west, with average waegs, for example, being considerably higher in the west. This goes back to the different ways the two regions were managed after WWII.

So when a big (and presumably well-paying) company is going to create lots of jobs in the country, whether this is in an eastern or a western state is indeed a very important question.

EDIT: Please note though, that it's somewhat controversial how relevant the divide really is these days. Some will tell you it's 90% in peoples heads, others will tell you that there's still a long way to go before we can really call the german reunification complete.

In socioeconomic terms the north-south divide is much more pronounced than the east-west divide.

Politically, east-west is obviously dominant.

That's a bit skewed by the fact that most of Eastern Germany is also part of Northern Germany. I don't doubt that there is a north-south divide, but the industrial divide is still mostly West-East. In Eastern Germany, there was little manufacturing capacity at reunification which still shows effects today. Other parts of Northern Germany have been strongholds of car manufacturing for >50 years (most notably VW and Siemens).

I absolutely do not want more tech companies gentrifying Berlin and continuing the encroachment of foreign corporate Neubauten. The amount of berlin for the working class is shrinking by the day and the culture that draws people to this city is being scrubbed out as a result. When the protests inevitably happen, as they did for the Google campus before it, I’ll be standing on the picket line.

It's delusional to think Berlin will forever be the leftist dreamland that it has been for the last 30 years. This change is inevitable and in the end creates value for the city. The problems can be solved in different ways than fighting against tech companies that want to create well paying jobs and pay a lot of taxes. This actually draws a lot of diversity to Berlin, almost none of my friends and coworkers are germans, not even europeans and i love that.

Brandenburg is one of the poorest regions in Germany. Berlin as a city brings negative GDP to country.

I think they can just get it for (relatively) cheap there and that would be the main reason.

What you are trying to say is that the average GDP per capita of Berlin is lower than the average of Germany, thus having an overall negative effect on the per capita numbers for Germany. In this, Berlin stands alone among capitols. Usually, capitols are major "benefits" to their respective countries GDP per capita numbers.

But the statistic I assume you are referencing is a few years old, and Berlin has been the fastest growing state in Germany for quite a while now, a development that is still increasing. The numbers for 2019 aren't out yet, but I assume that at this point, Berlin is exactly average in per capita terms for Germany.

Why Berlin has been an outlier for capitols is quite obvious: It has only been Germanys capitol for a bit less than 30 years, and before that was divided.

Wages at the higher levels of education are not significantly lower in Berlin than anywhere else in Germany. Berlin (and Brandenburg) still has a somewhat higher levels of unemployment (at 7.x and 5.x%, respectively), but that doesn't really do much for such a project. Land is relatively cheap, but I doubt that makes much of a difference.

If I had to speculate, Tesla is concerned about finding people willing to relocate, and Berlin is a rather attractive destination even for people not speaking German.

That was my thought Berlin has the Cool Factor that other German Cities don't.

GDP is comparable to the concept of revenue for a company, which is not the same as profit/loss. Revenue cannot be negative unless the company is charging negative prices.

I think what you meant is that Berlin has a net inflow of tax money.

GDP measures value added (final output). If you want to measure total value of new goods and services you should look at Gross Output (GO). GO includes sales to other industries (intermediate inputs).

For example, US GDP is $21 trillion, US GO is $37 trillion.

This chart[0] clearly shows that Germany would have +0.2% GDP per capita without Berlin.

[0] https://qz.com/753244/berlin-is-the-only-capital-city-in-eur...

Brandenburg and Berlin are fundamentally unrelated, they’re two completely distinct, and politically and (largely) economically independent regions. While Berlin is geographically within Brandenburg, they couldn’t be more different, and the geography is mostly of historical relevance when it comes to Berlin’s current economic position.

No, this is bad news; it's a smaller version of the economic bomb/distortion of creating a google campus somewhere. This will be bad for everything from housing up to the general health of startup culture in Berlin. Desperate move by the economically starved Brandenburg. (and of course they won't suffer the consequences)

The startup culture in Berlin is mediocre at best. I think bringing in proper high tech will be very valuable

What do you see it lacking? Berlin already has a lot. Just many of the "startup scene" aren't really aware of stuff like:

Mozilla and HPI (Oracle JVM research) doing cutting edge work.

Ableton and Native Instruments as world leaders in niche but influential software.

Car2Go and Coup with major financial backing from Mercedes and Bosch.

Tons of small seed-stage companies funded by the great smaller VCs here. ECB central bank policy pushes a lot of money into startup investment.

Well I am a part of the Berlin startup scene, so I have personal experience there, completing a fundraising attempt myself. I'm not saying there is no tech happening in Berlin, I just don't think that Car2Go and Coup are good examples of startups.

They are actually perfect example of the German mentality in investing in startups - fairly secure plays which they can understand.

As far as early stage investments companies go, it's not as nice as you make it sound. Have a look at any list of startups and apart from infarm (which is great and I've worked there) and maybe n26, most are ecommerce platform plays and some fintech (of which most are too late to the game). A lot of the people in my network wanting to do something different had to go elsewhere

Worse than Amsterdam's?

So it would be better for Berlin if this factory was in another city? Taking that to its logical conclusion, it would be better for Germany to not have this factory in the country?

As long as we don't know at least the amount of subsidies paid by the state and the amount (and pay level) of employees who will work there, no factory at all could certainly be better, yes. The subsidies could be spent elsewhere, and the people could find work in facilities that won't exist because the new Gigafactory displaced competition. Without actual numbers this is all guesswork.

What consequences do you mean?

I could imagine that the factory staff would often live closer to the site, in Brandenburg, not in Berlin which has housing problems and is accumulating more of them through rent regulation.

you can still live in Berlin and be close to the site and in that area of Berlin is is also less housing problems, if any.

Good strategy from Treelon overall. You'll have Tesla producing cars and employing thousands of workers in the U.S, China & Germany so that no one would stifle the company's path towards autonomous EV's.

This will produce pressure on Europe to ease for instance the AI regulations and basically removed Customs tax from many other countries because Tesla can send the cars from three different locations.

I just don't understand why Tesla is slow in expanding to other countries. Here in Israel we don't have Teslas and it's an extremely innovative place with very good conditions for an EV as Israel stretches 424 km (263 mi) from north to south. like two or three charging locations and you're done.

> Here in Israel we don't have Teslas

You might have missed this very recent news:

> International car company Tesla published an ad seeking an operations manager in Israel, thus confirming that it plans to launch significant operations here. [1]

[1] https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/business/tesla-to-launch...

Israel is so small that you can go anywhere on one charge.

Plus, I remember seeing a video years ago from some electric car visionary (didn't went very far) that argued Israel is basically an island. In the west there is a sea and in the north/east/south there are hostile nations/deserts that you don't want to drive to.

Compared to most other nations it's easy to bootstrap an electric driving infrastructure in Israel, because you don't have to do a continental wide rollout.

It’s also a small market: 9 million inhabitants.

I didn't miss it. It doesn't really mean they will be selling here any time soon as they only published one position for now.

> I just don't understand why Tesla is slow in expanding to other countries.

They don't have the capacity. Last quarter, they made as many M3s they have the capacity to make, and sold all of them. Opening new markets just means underserving the current ones more. They will start operations in new countries as they increase capacity and start saturating sales in their current ones.

>Last quarter, they made as many M3s they have the capacity to make, and sold all of them.

We were told, repeatedly, that Tesla would be producing 10,000 Model 3s per week in 2019, with a single factory. Suddenly, now, they don't have the capacity at ~6,000 per week and need multiple factories on zero year-over-year growth?

Now, please be precise with wording. 2019 hasn't ended, and the 10000 figure was given with the second gigafactory in mind.(which will start production in this year, actually)

Israel is probably just too small of a market at the moment. In most European countries there still isn't a official Tesla store or service center.

I live in the Baltic's and a friend of a freind has a Model X which was involved in a minor accident (other drivers fault) last year. To get it repaired without affecting the warranty it had to be sent to Tesla, which meant it had to be taken to Finland (700km) or Germany (1000km).

There are some costs to expand in European countries. EU passed a law (GVO) in 2004 saying something like that: one can repair a car in any mechanic shop and still don't loose warranty.

Shop has to: - have access to service manuals using Pass Thru - this is requirement on the car producer. - document all repairs - do the repairs in a way the producer documented them

And these are very good regulations. I don't know if it's because of them, but dealing with car problems is local, fast and easy.

> “Israel is probably just too small of a market”

I’m not sure if size has much to do with it. Tesla is in remote countries like New Zealand (1/2 the population of Israel) and Iceland (about 1/20th the population of Israel), as well as neighbouring Jordan (similar size to Israel).

I don't know about New Zealand, but Iceland is part of the EU's single market when it comes to selling cars. I'd expect for a company like Tesla dealing with regulatory overhead in new markets might be the limiting factor.

New Zealand is an English speaking country so perhaps it's easier for them, and to sell cars in Iceland you don't need to do anything more than ship cars you're selling in the EU over and pay import tolls & registration fees.

Sadly, that is just where Tesla is in terms of making replacement parts, the same holds true within the US.

Even getting parts to certified shops anywhere right now is particularly challenging, its is one of the reasons I think they aren't profitable yet--they have to pay for a loaner car.

They've made a ton of progress and can now mass produce S/X/3 with reasonable turn around, but with the recent production hell ramp up with 3, they had to direct all resources to those desposit holders and that meant slowing down part manufacturing for non deliverable sales.

The factory in Fremont is HUGE but near there is a body shop where you'll see a ton of S/X/3 waiting for parts to be shipped out. I honestly thought it was an auxiliary parking lot when I saw it.

What part of he Baltics? With Rimac putting its footprint down you'd think that area would be have more of a Market for EVs.

Slow to expand to other countries? I would say they are operating at lightspeed! Think for a moment the colossal effort involved in expanding a car company around the world. And not just a car company, but a direct-to-customer model with a completely new fueling method.

>I just don't understand why Tesla is slow in expanding to other countries

Tesla is expanding as fast as they can. After huge struggles they finally got their Fremont plant working right. Then they immediately set to work building a plant in China, and got done remarkably fast.

Now they are going to build a plant in Europe. Probably next will come India, and then maybe Latin America or the Middle East, and there I suppose Israel would be the best location.

Israel is not a good location for a Middle East factory. Most countries in the region will not trade with it, and even those that will, like Jordan and Egypt, do not have free trade or good transportation links with the country.

You know, that's a good point. Maybe I'm wrong.

no one said building Teslas in Israel... They don't sell here at all.

ROI may be? the market size in Israel is not as big in other countries, so it makes sense to target bigger audience first. Also does Israel have any good local EV manufacturers that can give Tesla any competition?

No competition for Tesla at all, only e-tron is selling here a bit and I think the model 3 and Y will crush it here. In terms of market size, well they have them in Jordan next to us which have the same population size and they don't have half the country working in the tech space as our GDP per capita is way higher.

Well, you probably not very interested in politics, if you was, you would know the answer...

I’m mildly interested in politics and don’t know the answer.

If their neighbours really want a Tesla they'd have to get it from Israel.

MobileEye (which was acquired by Intel) does not make cars but is a competitor in autonomous driving technology. They're based in Israel.

> the market size in Israel is not as big in other countries

Why, comma, you say that as if building a car outside of Germany and selling it inside of Germany would face some sort of unfair obstacles, rather than being a straightforward and painless process as it ought.

> Inside of Germany

That should be "Inside of Europe" because the barriers to selling cars in the EU are just about the same as selling Nevada cars in California.

For US->Europe tariffs for cars are around 10% I believe.

I think the main issues are shipping costs, supply chain, and skills base. So you’d have to argue for Israel on those three points.

I don’t think the domestic market size is primary. They built a factory in Nevada.

It sounds likey they've been hiring in Israel. Maybe that will change soon.

They just put up one hiring position which is exciting but nevertheless, it's been 11 years since Tesla's inception so we are not holding our breath. Ordered a Tesla hat though! haha

I will say that Tel Aviv and Haifa both have excellent engineers. As Tesla grows I'd be a bit surprised if they didn't have engineers in Israel. That said, most of the engineering is still based out of Silicon Valley, so that might be why?

As a tesla fan and owner, I hope you get your superchargers. I've heard rumors that they've just started seriously producing the supercharger v3 hardware at the Buffalo, NY factory (Gigafactory 2), so maybe as that ramps up you'll be good.

Consider tweeting @elonmusk and asking. I did that for slow parts delivery and had the issue resolved in two days.

He got hammered by us but unfortunately nothing from him referencing Israel. I don’t blame him, no one can filter all these tweets.

They need some good engineers, sure. But what they really need is someone who can produce better welds.

For Y they are just going to stamp the whole frame out in one fell swoop.

> Another new innovation revealed in the patents is a “Multi-Directional Unibody Casting Machine for a Vehicle Frame and Associated Methods.” Musk himself let this cat out of the bag earlier on by revealing the new casting machine will be capable of casting almost the entire body of a Tesla EV in one piece.

> This startling innovation will virtually eliminate the need for a tremendous number of welds across an EV body.

They also reduced the total length of wiring from 1.5km to 100m in the Y.

Nah that’s SpaceX, not Tesla. The S and X use a lot of friction stir welding, which machines do anyways not humans.

Isn't the issue in Israel that you must have a local importer and dealer?

No, but worst case you simply register a local company that will act as an importer (like anywhere else). This company will declare profits of 0 every year as all revenues will be shipped to Tesla U.S.

The issue is with Tesla, they still didn't make the move on us I guess. At least I have my Tesla shares though.

How are the temperatures in Israel? I could imagine the summers get too hot for Tesla to guarantee battery performance?

Way colder than in Nevada. And also they already have them in Jordan next to us so that's not the culprit.

Israel may be cooler than Las Vegas but definitely warmer than Reno, NV where the gigafactory is located. Reno gets 22 inches of snow per year.

One thing I haven't really thought of, until I recently went to Israel, is that people drive only in Israel. It's like an island. Technically, I guess, people could drive to Jordan and Egypt, but no one does that. It's a limited range then, fwiw.

I don't understand your post at all.

"so that no one would stifle the company's path towards autonomous EV's."

Who is "stifling"? And many companies work on autonomous cars.

"This will produce pressure on Europe to ease for instance the AI regulations"

What AI regulations in Europe? And what is Europe? The EU?

"and basically removed Customs tax"

This is not how custom taxes work. The EU is one of the biggest free trade zone in the world. If Mercosul joins, it is the biggest.

"I just don't understand why Tesla is slow in expanding to other countries. Here in Israel we don't have Teslas and it's an extremely innovative place"

Because Tesla is burning through cash like a motherfucker. And Israel is a tiny place. This is also why, to my knowledge, nobody build cars in Israel. I mean, why not Dubai?

> "and basically removed Customs tax" > This is not how custom taxes work. The EU is one of the biggest free trade zone in the world. If Mercosul joins, it is the biggest.

Wait, isn't this is exactly how custom taxes work? Say the EU charges a 10% tax on all imported passenger cars (it does, and 25% on pickups and other trucks). Now, if Tesla sells cars to the EU that were made in the USA, wouldn't it trigger that import tax?

Now, say Tesla builds a factory inside the EU and makes cars there (as it plans to do). When sold in the EU, those cars wouldn't be charged an import tax because they're not being imported.

Right? What am I missing?

You’re right on both. Just as an added plus Tesla will have better tariffs to other countries while taking advantage of each of its hosting jurisdiction’s bilateral deals, so the impact is larger.

> Who is "stifling"

No one yet, but it means the company is less beholden to a single regulatory environment. This is generally a good thing.

> What AI regulations in Europe?

https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/the-european-strategy-of-r...

https://www.ft.com/content/4fd088a4-021b-11e9-bf0f-53b8511af...

https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/8/18300149/eu-artificial-int...

https://www.loc.gov/law/help/artificial-intelligence/europe-...

Also, most of the self-driving car regulation is state-level until the DOT pushes something through or Congress passes something, so for now, there are fifty different regulatory environments to pick from here.

> Mercosul join

If a whole other continent joins, it will be the biggest? The whole point is that Europe has geographical and (some) cultural continuity. Mercosul is South American. Why would it join the EU, especially considering that it would be out-numbered by its former colonial masters?

> Israel is a tiny place

No one said build there, people mentioned selling. Apparently, they're also sold in neighboring Jordan. I really can't understand why they wouldn't sell in Israel; it's a richer nation and a better market.

"If a whole other continent joins, it will be the biggest?"

Yes. The biggest free trade zone. Read the news from time to time. The EU-Mercosul FTA is supposed to be signed but may not due to Austria and partly also to France.

It may be the biggest already: https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/east-asia/article/2177749/eu-...

>" Mercosul is South American. Why would it join the EU..."

Nobody's talking about joining the EU, but rather a free trade area. Regarding cars, the free trade area makes sense as many EU carmakers (Fiat, Renault, etc) are active in South America.

EU regulations prohibit the turning angle of the wheel unlike the U.S. You simply can’t navigate on autopilot in the same way. Also the EU makes money from the auto companies in their jurisdiction and they don’t want a U.S auto company competing with them. Now that Tesla opens a factory in Germany “massages” things.

The customs tax is in regards to countries/jurisdictions other than the ones with the Tesla factories. For instance a country like Israel might have a 20% tariff from Europe but 0% from China due to different bilateral deals so Tesla will send cars from there.

Israel is different than Dubai because literally a third of the population are in the tech space. Israel’s main export is tech and the tech ecosystem will build on-top of Tesla (Waze for example was founded here and there are many auto security startups for instance).

>"EU regulations prohibit the turning angle of the wheel unlike the U.S. You simply can’t navigate on autopilot in the same way."

I've never heard anyone complaining that their car is too safe.

How many people have been killed in autopilot-related accidents in Europe vs the US?

>"Also the EU makes money from the auto companies in their jurisdiction and they don’t want a U.S auto company competing with them."

Carmakers can make cars in the EU and pay taxes. Or they can import them from the US and pay tariffs.

Exactly as EU carmakers are treated in the US...

> EU regulations prohibit the turning angle of the wheel unlike the U.S. You simply can’t navigate on autopilot in the same way.

You seem to be overstating the issue, Tesla has already adapted their software to the new rules, and they seem to be related to EU safety standards:

https://www.engadget.com/2019/05/17/tesla-updates-autopilot-...

> Also the EU makes money from the auto companies in their jurisdiction and they don’t want a U.S auto company competing with them.

I believe that Ford might have something to say about that. They've been in Europe since... 1967.

Or GM since 1986 (now Opel and Vauxhall).

Or the existing Fiat-Chrysler.

Germany and EU very obviously have a policy preference to any large auto-companies that both operate and sell there.

It’s not going to be written down on paper but there’s plenty of evidence to support it through their history of actions. And Germany has the largest influence on the EU economy wise having the largest GDP by far.

Completely dropping customs tax because a foreign company factory opened there is a bit much though.

Watching a SV company suddenly have to deal with German workers' rights (think: unions, significant protection from being fired without cause, rights to paid holiday and enforced maternity leave, even workers' councils which have representation at a management level) is going to be hilarious.

I get you are joking, but there are two points that I would like to raise:

There are many, many SV companies with large offices in parts of the world with very strong workers rights. I work in one of these. There is no problem, other then I'm not expected to work weekends and be on-call at unreasonable hours. If this is required I would need to be compensated for it.

Secondly; perhaps I am reading into this, but I get the sense you are implying that "less work" will be done due to these protections. You may be surprised to find out that German factories are actually quite efficient ;) , and that treating workers well gets them to work more, not less. Having a healthcare system that means you can bring your children to A&E at the weekend and not get caught for $1000s means you can come to work on Monday with a clear head.

Having protection from "right to work" means you can voice an opposing opinion without fear.

Having a paid holiday means you can come back to work refreshed with a clear mind, and not "burn out" as fast.

Having maternity, and paternity leave, means happier parents (like, in a abstract way, not like in a oh I haven't slept in 8 months I'm soooo happy way). Let's call it out here. Giving children a good start in life sets them up for success.

On a global team you can quite clearly see the results of the different work environments, and the various impacts each environment has. From a tech point of view, I see this most critically in the ability to voice controversial opinions, or push back against your manager for example.

I’m outside the SV bubble for the most part, the “joke” if there was one was that Tesla is going to have serious culture clash if they try to treat their German workers like their workers elsewhere, and I’m going to be reading about the resulting court cases for years.

Rumour has it that Amazon has a dedicated judge at the labour court in Munich. Just the existance of such a rumour is telling you a lot.

Amazon has adds running where they have workers affirming that the working conditions are allright. It's pretty uncanny.

Because of their warehouse operations nearby or other functions? I always thought they treat people in their offices better than their warehouses?

>Having protection from "right to work" means you can voice an opposing opinion without fear.

I assume you mean "at-will employment"?

Right-to-work laws, in the US, are laws saying that employees cannot be forced to join a union as a prerequisite to employment.

At-will employment laws, again in the US, are laws saying that employees can be terminated for any or no reason, except for a list of specific reasons like race, sex, age, religion, and probably a few others. Unless there's some kind of employment contract, which the majority of jobs in the US don't have.

Yes, I meant "at will", sorry ;)

I was told about a support call with a US university a few years ago and the director fired the sys admin in the middle of the conference call. It was in the EMEA time zone (like 4am central). Everyone heard about it because that sort of thing just wouldn't be done here.

The guy had done nothing wrong, he had been up all night trying to fix the problem, and the director came on the call and lost it.

I always think in that environment so much of your energy must be spent on ass coverage and politics over working.

They already own Grohmann, so I'm guessing they have a fair idea. I remember a flap at the time about Tesla forcing them to ditch their other clients as quickly as possible, which was a bit of a culture shock, but why else would they have bought them in the first place?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Grohmann_Automation

Grohmann is located at the other end of Germany. Even for them, opening a factory in Brandenburg would probably result in quite a culture shock.

Labor law is federal and exactly the same.

But mentality is local and very different between for example Schwaben and Uckermark.

I'm all for some cultural drama, but I'd wager that they have done basic due diligence and they are aware of these factors :)

I would have thought the same about Walmart, and yet: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2006/jul/28/retail.mone...

Not always :-)

An American Manger in BT NI manged to cause some major problems by not being sensitive to the special employment laws in Northern Ireland.

Also IMARSAT had a spectacular car crash of a court case in the UK when some one blindly imported US style HR

Maybe this is part of the reason why he does it.

"Look he made it work in Germany with their "strict" workers rights. It can't be so bad"

Also going to Germany, right in the face of the traditional car industry is a great show off too.

Oh well...maybe there were other reasons:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/nov/13/tesla-cit...

You seem to be unaware that Tesla already has a sizable presence in Europe, including a final assembly plant in the Netherlands. Some of the details are different, but I don't see employing a significant amount of Germans being novel for them.

German labor laws and how unions work there is rather different to other European countries - the Netherlands included.

Germany has been spearheading the neoliberal assault on democracy alongside the US and Great Britain as early as the 1980s. In the 2000s we created "Europe's best low-income sector" (Gerhard Schroeder) and destroyed the pension scheme. This dramatically decreased social security among low- to middle-income workers.

German labor institutions are strategically oriented towards collaboration (much like in the US), they are extremely centralized and anti-democratic and if you're in the workers' council and you're a member of the supervisory board, socio-economically you belong to the upper class. This facilitates the same corporate conspiracies as everywhere else.

Furthermore, East-Germany's labor market as a whole is much more like Eastern European labor markets. It is super-exploited. However, it is right in Western Europe where you've got access to decent infrastructure and massive subsidies.

Please drop your inevitable BER jokes below so we can recylce them properly later.

Wait, so if I have this correct, the airport took ~6 years to construct and 9 years and counting to correct problems with its construction? Meaning that it would have been faster to tear the entire building down and rebuild it from scratch than it is taking to remedy the issues?

How does that happen‽

Massive failures in oversight and management. Airport building/management company that makes changes to the design pretty randomly, total failure in oversight mechanisms (basically, there was no review process in place which could have caught this while it was going on), as a result a building that doesn't match the original plans, doesn't conform to regulations and where in the end the actual state of what exists wasn't even known. Brought down by failing the fire safety certifications shortly before the opening, at which point the slow "figure out what happened and who to blame" process began, and then attempts to fix it. It's a glorious mess.

Even if there had been a consensus on almost-rip-and-replace immediately, it's not clear that could have been done as quickly, given the amount of preparation needed.

(As an example of the kind of changes, during the building process they decided to re-assign arrivals and departures to different floors of the building. Which in an airport has fairly fundamental consequences due to security zones etc...)

According to lore, it all started with the architect deciding against the tried and tested usage of little chimney-like structure on top of the terminal roofs for fire protection de-fuming, insisting instead on some novel, less visible solutions for aesthetic reasons. Those then caused all kinds of follow-up issues, eventually leading into the construction equivalent of the perpetual bugfix cycle, where every fix brings two new problems. Compounded by a colorful parade of high level "fix it guys" taking over the reins and failing in short progression, adding to the chaos.

As far as I remember, the estimation was that the fire system was properly designed (although more complex for the mentioned artistic reasons) and would have worked - for the building that was originally planned, which the airport company then changed massively.

Emergency smoke ventilation is a solved problem, ‘little chimneys on the roof’ are one of many different solutions; there are lots of different strategies. So that sounds like nonsense. Source, I’ve worked on mega projects like this. If it’s true that someone decided to swap departures with arrivals once the building was already on site, I would say that’s your problem right there. Whoever is responsible for that caused this mess. I would hazard a guess that the airport was originally briefed to be designed as primarily a government funded transport interchange, someone decided it should make some money to help pay for the costs and the only way to make room for the extended corridors full of shops was to turn the design concept upside down.

> Meaning that it would have been faster to tear the entire building down and rebuild it from scratch than it is taking to remedy the issues?

This sentence is never true.

It's not true in software it's even less so in construction.

The issues would have been there even if the construction was done perfectly, you always fix such massive infrastructure for their whole lifetime (it's not simply a building!)

This time they fucked up and the airport didn't pass the safety checks necessary to open it, but there is constant fixing and changing and upgrading and scaling in an airport facility.

Tearing down it and rebuilding it it's never an option and never a good idea, unless the structure is severely damaged or contaminated (e.g. asbestos)

Inept State/Corporate entities who hire based on immutable characteristics of an individual rather than their actual ability to complete given task.

Corrupt State/Corporate entities who'd rather have money in their private bank than complete given task for public good.

That's what happens when political corruption becomes a culture, while nobody wants to seriously talk about it.

Politicians take turns taking lucrative positions within the project companies, "to help".

In addition to the excellent replies so far, there's a compounding problem: The long delay means that new safety regulations for new buildings apply, and so they have to iterate again.

There is a fantastic English language podcast called "How To F#€k Up An Airport" that goes into great detail about the many failures that let to this debacle. Highly recommended.

http://www.radiospaetkauf.com/ber/

> How does that happen‽

Berlin is a massive clusterfuck of corruption.

Lived here 10 years, can verify. You feel it even if you're not in the know. It's like NYC in the early 80s, but now mixed with a startup scene.

Well, it's not just years, every day of that means money that gets shifted. I couldn't find the article I read years ago about one of the companies involved, and their string of similar projects in other countries, but here's something to give you an idea how much this thing reeks: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36185194

When I read "embarrassingly poor planning" and similar phrases in articles about it, I have to think of someone who "clumsily" spills coffee on the dress of Marilyn Monroe, for lack of a better image, and then "embarrassingly" ends up with his head planted on her chest, because he "stumbled" while "hastily trying to make up for the mistake with a handkerchief". Sure, that's one way to put it. But beyond all the plausible deniability, someone is benefitting, one way or another.

I read that it's mainly a software problem, which would make sense why the delay is so long. Building and fixing problems with the building are done faster than fixing the software to manage that airport.

No, it's not mainly a software problem. As is common in big delays, there are multiple issues, but a fairly big contributor was political arrogance that wanted to brush away fire regulations. That didn't work.

Nah, BER will actually be turned into the Tesla factory. This way they can at least stop spending millions just to keep the lights on.

It's true, they both hemorrhage money, but at least with Tesla they also produce electric cars.

(Tesla fans: relax.)

Might be getting downvoted since Tesla generated $2b in cash flow past 12m months and has all time high cash on hand. And then the "relax" insult despite being dead wrong.

Placing it near that airport may be the biggest risk Musk has ever taken.

It's not open yet, there's a chance it will never open.

Might even be an investment opportunity: Swoop in and buy the whole mess once the German government decides it has thrown enough money into their bottomless pit.

That's not entirely correct. Sure, the passenger terminals are a big mess and it is not yet clear when they will open.

However, the cargo terminal has been in operation since 2013 [1].

[1] https://www.berlin-airport.de/en/business-partners/airlines-...

The government will likely never do that, it's a prestige project so it will completed unless the entire government collapses.

And transform it into rocket launchpad: - fast parts delivery from China on BFR - competition for EU launchers etc.

{joke}

Why is that?

Der Postillon:

Musk: "We chose Berlin as the location because it has the only CO2-free airport in the world"

https://www.der-postillon.com/2019/11/tesla-ber.html

I bet elon will not be able to land in BER for the celebation of the millionth car rolled out there.

You will win this bet since zero cars are produced there.

Best place to store the Boeing 737 MAX airplanes.

Can't; they're storing all the unsold VW cars there: https://www.dw.com/en/vw-finds-a-use-for-berlins-unfinished-...

If you start this, it risks becoming Ground Zero of idiocracy.

For anyone confused like me they mean the airport https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Brandenburg_Airport?w...

I first though of BER encoding and I was like 'What jokes and what's the relationship with Tesla'

This provides a decent and entertaining overview of why the Berlin airport has still not been completed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll58ZrIupKA

Get in quick, there's only 49 days left of BER months this year!

I loved flying in and out your new airport!

Hey, there's always Stuttgart 21 and Elbphilharmonie!

The Brexiteers scoffing at "Project Fear" and crowing about the uppity Europeans begging us for our (UK) car business have been strangely quiet on this one.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/nov/13/tesla-cit...

To be fair:

1. Brexit hasn't happened yet. I.e. UK has not been able to introduce policies that would make it a lot more competitive and friendly for business than the EU/Germany, make it friendlier for international talent, which is one of the opportunities created by Brexit.

2. We do not know what would have happened had Parliament and civil service been more positive and cooperative on Brexit. It could be a self-fulfilling prophecy - remainers in Parliament inadvertently creating greater uncertainty, which in turn drives business away as the leavers are unable to realistically guarantee a more competitive / friendlier for business Britain in the future.

The shitshow in the UK parliament wasn't because of remainers, but mostly brexiters not agreeing on what kind of brexit they want.

Could the downvoters please explain the downvoting?

Are you arguing that there is no scenario under which Brexit could make Britain a more attractive place for business than the EU or Germany?

I’m not OP, but I would argue that. There’s no realistic scenario in which leaving the single market makes Britain a more attractive place for (most) businesses.

I didn't downvote you (I posted the parent to your response) but your comment read to me as coming from a perspective skewed through Brexiteer-tinted glasses, which both Remainers and neutrals wanting objectivity might find frustrating.

I can believe there might be positive aspects for business, but pretty much all of them involve a deterioration in workers and other rights (human, animal) and standards. And generally speaking, while agility and flexibility are likely to follow from becoming newly small and skinny, I don't see how that helps when in the trading ring with very big, very strong heavyweights.

Here is how you approach this: in which scenarios would Canada become a more attractive place for business if it left the USMCA (ex NAFTA) RELATIVE to the USA or Mexico.

I'm curious about how the massive left/anti-fa movement in Berlin will react to this one.

They kept out Google after massive protests. Not sure this is the same thing though.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/oct/24/google-ab...

p.s. I'm based in Berlin. Have no horse in the race except that the Google office would have been right down the street of where I work.

As they want to open their factory next to the new Airport, it will basically be in Brandenburg and not in the center of Berlin (not that it would fit there). They probably will change the neighbourhood there, but automobile engineers are perceived as worker class while google techies generally are not. I also think that Google would have had no problems If they would have opened their office in Adlershof.

So to summarize:

Tesla:

- builds factory in a practically greenfield area

- employs middle-class workers

Google:

- buys old building in the middle of the "hip" leftist city district

- employs high-wage workers which will drive gentrification

So I think this will be received at least with mixed voices, but mostly positively.

> I also think that Google would have had no problems If they would have opened their office in Adlershof.

Google probably could have moved their office location ~2 km and have been fine. But they really wanted to sit right in the hornet nest.

Did they really not employ anyone with local knowledge when planning the office?

Still Middle class workers in both cases

That probably depends on the definition but I'm with you there. What I meant was the (media) perception which is definitely different for "hardworking, family-supporting car workers" vs "single, well-earning entitled startup employees", which are obviously clichés.

It's curious to be sure, but I think they will react positively to Tesla.

1) Berlin is suffering from pollution, especially the diesel. For city dwellers the switch to electric car can't happen fast enough, and German auto makers have been absolutely dragging their heels. Tesla has become a symbol, a fuck-you to BMW, Mercedes, VW and their gas guzzling, diesel pushing ways. It's unbelievable how out of touch the german automakers have been.

2) The factory means some working-class jobs. The left won't see anything wrong with that. It's the coming gentrification that caused the upset against Google.

3) Factory is just outside Berlin, technically in Brandenburg. Near the (forever in construction) BER airport means less concerns about noise, etc.

This was a pure territorial war. I’ve seen the German campaign material, there was no sign of good reasons, at most a lot of misunderstanding of the idea of a startup incubator. I remember how I had to explain the idea to a very vocal campaigner who clearly did not get that Google was not planning to open a big dev center in their kiez after Google gave up. The underlying reason was the fear of rents rising in Kreuzberg.

They didn’t protest against the new Spandau Siemens campus either. Siemens being in the arms industry, while Googlers openly protested against any military-related research during the same year. It’s just that no nobody wants to live in Spandau.

The area around BER is even further away, and the close-by Adlershof is pretty much Berlins center for STEM research (many suppliers are there too). Could be a good move.

Oi, I live in spandau. It's very green...

You mean like Spandau bei Berlin?

Being a Berliner, on a personal level it would have been nice for me to have a Google office where they would have been.

But I'm very happy about people standing up for their neighborhood and actually protesting. Having a Google office with >400 decidedly well-compensated people move in would very much change the neighborhood and not for the better.

People fighting for their own local interests is what makes Berlin great, and it is _so_ refreshing after having lived in North America where no-one protests anything and letting corporate interests dominate yours is the norm.

> Having a Google office with >400 decidedly well-compensated people move in would very much change the neighborhood and not for the better.

i don't understand this. so berlin would rather have poor citizens? how is that better for the city? and how would >400 "well-compensated" people affect the city in anything but a positive manner? has there been any sort of study as to how better wages affect a city?

Do you reject the entire concept of gentrification or is there something about this particular instance you have trouble understanding?

There is a finite and already fully utilized number of domiciles. Adding 400 well off families would undoubtedly displace 400 not so well off families over time.

All while jacking up prices of apartments/food/services for everyone.

Where is the positive net effect for people here? The city&state will earn more tax revenue, but for the neighborhood there's nothing positive that's going to happen.

> so berlin would rather have poor citizens?

not everything is about money

I take "poor citizens" but cultural fecund Berlin anytime over "rich" USA cities with homeless people living on the streets while FAANG workers spend half of their huge salary on mediocre apartments

> and how would >400 "well-compensated" people affect the city in anything but a positive manner?

a city is not only (I would say not at all) the offices of big corporations.

Berlin is also many other things like Köpi or Blu's graffiti in Kreuzberg that he removed few years ago because gentrifiers saw them as a way to keep the place "cool" and raise prices [1]

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/19/why-we...

But Google did not want to open a dev center with its own employees there. Campaigners acted like their Kreuzberg was the navel of the world believing that.

This was a „Google for Startups Campus“ project. Co-working spaces and startup events and so on. Money and potential funding for the Berlin startup scene.

I’m rather worried how some vocal and partly violent people, seemingly without a lot of understanding of what they are campaigning against and how the tech world works managed to stop this project.

Have it somewhere else? Have it in Mitte (Downtown) if really needs to exists. Kreuzberg is not a business park.

I don't object to its existence, only location.

As a reaction, Google doubled down on the Munich office (+1500 employees) and Zurich, Switzerland (+4500 employees).

Tesla average salary is way below google so their main concern is moot here.

Google has offices in Berlin, just not in Kreuzberg.

I think tesla is going to be fine because it promises massive environmental improvements.

Tesla isn't particularly political and there's no Fascist angle?

It's not really about that, so much as wanting to avoid what happened to the Bay Area. Massive gentrification, something Berlin has already struggled with for about 10 years (almost its defining issue in modern times IMO), is a serious problem if the rest of the city is rather poor, which Berlin actually was in the 2000s compared to the rest of the country ("poor but sexy", as it was sold).

When I hear this, I hear jobs and the most revolutionary green company are not welcome. If that's the case, Berlin is lost.

There is good and bad to gentrification. You don't hear stories of the people who bought their house for 50k in 1980 who then sold it in 2010 for 1.3MM. Or the people thankful they don't have to walk around in fear of gangs for themselves or their children.

TO me the biggest problem is the State. In SF, among many many other things, it's their zoning policies that caused the housing crisis. But they run education and media. So people blame the most revolutionary green company, or others bring wealth to the area, instead of the State.

Can you elaborate on how you think Google is „fascist“?

Europe has lived history of governments collecting data on it's citizens.

Since Google openly collects data on it's users, I suspect that fact does not sit well with that same populous.

I think the idea is Google is a good tool for a hypothetical future fascist state to use.

But I think their main concern was gentrification not fascism.

Germans might be particularly sensitive about a Stasi-like surveillance apparatus.

I wasn't actually going to point to the surveillance question, and I didn't say that Google itself was fascist, but the parent poster seemed to think that antifa might have some opposition to google and did not offer their own reason.

Tesla is a luxury-good company that collects petabytes of data from public roads daily, is run by a billionaire that regularly makes an ass of himself on Twitter and is vocally anti-union.

I'll join the protests myself.

I think I'm missing something here. You'll protest people in Germany getting jobs because the CEO "makes an ass of himself on Twitter"?

Like, why do you care?

Isn't anti fascist just normal?

Anti-fa, isn’t that just a term used by fascists? Fas?

Wasn’t the Allied War effort in WW2 “Anti-Fa”? Or am I missing something?

Perhaps this could be added to the reminders list for the next Remembrance Day?

In Germany they certainly self-identify with that name. Unsure why the website is down these days, but here's an archive link: https://web.archive.org/web/20160304102539/http://www.antifa...

You are missing a lot [0].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-World_War_II_anti-fascism

A public label is often only surface deep. For example, Google's original motto was: "Don't be evil."

They obviously needed to get one built in Europe sooner rather than later to boost marketshare there and stay ahead of demand without needing to ship from China or the US, but why Berlin? Does anyone know if they got subsidies out of it?

I think Berlin is a great choice, because it excels at the metrics that matter most in constructing a new gigafactory. I believe the most critical metrics are: - cost of construction, including cost of land: extremely low in Berlin - cost of labour/wages: extremely low in Berlin - standard of living: very high, healthy - reachability: near Airport, highways, railroad - location within Europe: Germany/Berlin is perfectly in the middle of Europe with great railroad/truck connections to all other - regulation/friendliness to car industry: exceptional in Germany, as auto industry is the world's biggest - talent: world-class in Germany - law and order/rule of law: one of the best in the world

I agree with the rest of your list, but German wages are not "extremely low" compared to, say, Romania.

Romania's infrastructure is crap, though. Shipping those cars would probably be quite a bit more expensive. Also, the workforce is on average less educated and way fewer highly educated foreigners would be willing to relocate to Romania.

Source: I'm Romanian, I've been to Germany repeatedly.

I think it makes sense. Berlin is very spacious and connected to a lot of cities via rail.

Berlin is about 230 km (140 miles) away from Wolfsburg, where Volkswagen is located. Pretty sure there is infrastructure and are suppliers nearby.

Probably will attract a few people from Volkswagen. I personally know people who commute to WOB from Berlin, since they just cant stand the town. (And you cant blame them). Although to be fair VW acknowledges the undesirability of their hometown and has also opened Dev offices in Berlin.

Talent. It's why you see clustering of industries.

Could be partially political. Close to federal power, far-ish (in a different state than) from other car companies. No idea if there's supplier or other partner concerns that align (some R&D stuff in Berlin maybe, if they plan on doing anything like that there? I know they work with some Berlin companies, but that doesn't seem so important). Would expect Brandenburg to give some kind of subsidy, but other states would too.

Cheap real estate. Cheap workforce from Brandenburg and possibly Sachsen.

On top of that Brandenburg government will definitely sprinkle some tax breaks.

East Germany still has lower wages.

Without knowing the backroom deals - Berlin is a nice choice for things because it's like 'East Europe wages' with 'West Europe capabilities'.

Germany is a very stable robust economy that might be their #1 'export source' - there's a lot of related knowledge - and in a 'cramped Europe' - the Berlin area is wide open.

FYI Berlin has 'wide avenue streets' which are totally unlike most other European places, sometimes it feels like Los Angeles and not Europe.

It might have been possible to go to Czech/Poland but there are just a large number of 'little things' that can go wrong over there, issues best left to those who know and operate the market well.

Compound this with the probable politics of the game and it makes sense.

In a way it's the most obvious choice.

I have heard that a working legal system is one way for a country to attract long term investment. There is less risk that some politician's friend ends up claiming your factory grounds.

There are ways yo try to "hack it" like subsidies or having personal relations with someone high up but I don't know how cost effective and long term they really are.

So if people want long term improvement, they should vote for a strong legal system instead of "I personally brought this factory here".

It's the 'legal system' - and everything else.

German/French car companies, with long and historic ties on many levels to say, Poland, can fathom the risk of going there, especially with a long term view.

Volskwagen can plan decades ahead in some facets.

It takes 'a whole team' i.e. government (local, Fed, EU), probably financing/banking on both sides, political buy-in etc..

But for a new US company to go to Czech ... is asking for trouble.

The difference between E/W Europe is definitely centred around competitive advantage and long-established industries - but I'd argue more than anything it's 'good governance' at every level, private and public. And it's the same all over the 'developing' world.

Bizarre that this pretty inoffensive comment got flagged to dead. I vouched for you.

If it doesn't say [flagged], it was not flagged. All comments posted by this account start out [dead], i.e. they're banned.

Thanks Brexit, otherwise it would have been in UK as per Elon: https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/tesla/108395/tesla-gigafactory...

Seeing a lot of comments saying their choice is good because it won't contribute to gentrification.

Doesn't sound right to me. Why is that the first~third thing you're mentioning? It's almost like we scorn the concept of more people working in an area towards a positive goal (renewable transport). Yikes.

I think it highlights an issue with housing in general - if you judge by actions instead of words the logical but uncomfortable conclusion is that /everyone/, poor, middle class, or rich is horribly selfish and unwilling to agree to any cost which doesn't benefit them directly. From rent control to property values everyone has a "screw everyone else I have mine" attitude.

I actually start to feel sorry for politicians for a change when they have people who want mathematical impossibilities.

How in the world does Tesla execute so fast? The Tesla team seems relentless in its ambitions.

Checkout this internal memo from Elon just as the Model 3 was going into ramp-up for production:

– Excessive meetings are the blight of big companies and almost always get worse over time. Please get of all large meetings, unless you’re certain they are providing value to the whole audience, in which case keep them very short.

– Also get rid of frequent meetings, unless you are dealing with an extremely urgent matter. Meeting frequency should drop rapidly once the urgent matter is resolved.

– Walk out of a meeting or drop off a call as soon as it is obvious you aren’t adding value. It is not rude to leave, it is rude to make someone stay and waste their time.

– Don’t use acronyms or nonsense words for objects, software or processes at Tesla. In general, anything that requires an explanation inhibits communication. We don’t want people to have to memorize a glossary just to function at Tesla.

– Communication should travel via the shortest path necessary to get the job done, not through the “chain of command”. Any manager who attempts to enforce chain of command communication will soon find themselves working elsewhere.

– A major source of issues is poor communication between depts. The way to solve this is allow free flow of information between all levels. If, in order to get something done between depts, an individual contributor has to talk to their manager, who talks to a director, who talks to a VP, who talks to another VP, who talks to a director, who talks to a manager, who talks to someone doing the actual work, then super dumb things will happen. It must be ok for people to talk directly and just make the right thing happen.

– In general, always pick common sense as your guide. If following a “company rule” is obviously ridiculous in a particular situation, such that it would make for a great Dilbert cartoon, then the rule should change.

If there is something you think should be done to make Tesla execute better or allow you to look forward to coming to work more (same thing in the long term), please send a note to [redacted]

[1] https://medium.com/@StartupJourney/elon-musks-6-productivity...

Also Elon recently said he has started managing by rhymes. He said

"If the schedule is long it's wrong, if it's tight it's right. The best part is no part, the best process is no process."

All the hacking away of parts and processes pays off with speed.

Pretty cool. The power of compounding is amazing.

thx for posting this.

According to local news sources, the location of the factory will be at/near Grünheide near Berlin, roughly here: https://goo.gl/maps/orssVTcRQ6hwBTR76

Why should a GIGA factory be located near the airport and in a city ? A factory meant to mass produce something should be somewhere the land is cheap should not it be ?

The area just south of Berlin (it's not in the city) is suitable for the gigafactory for the same reason it was chosen as the site for the new airport: there's not much else there, so you can build big.

Of course that applies to many other places in Brandenburg with similar distance to Berlin, but the airport means that transportation to and from the city has been (or will be) built out for higher capacity.

The area immediately around major airports is usually not terribly desirable. I don’t know about Berlin, specifically.

Also it has to be close enough to the city to make commuting from the population center reasonable, no?

The new train line to the airport is scheduled to open in 2025, then it should only take 20 minutes there from the city centre.

Berlin is in a special situation due to the history. As only west Berlin belonged to west Germany and east Berlin and all the surrounding areas were part of the DDR, there is still a steep fall-off in industrialization as soon as you leave the direct Berlin area. Also in the DDR the industrial centers were in other cities than Berlin. So there should be plenty of cheap real estate not too far from Berlin.

Also in Bavaria, once you leave Munich (BMW), Augsburg or Ingoldstadt (Audi), there is quite a steep drop-off in density. The traditional high-density industrial regions of Germany are rather in the west and south-west.

If it is directly under the flight path the noise would make it less desirable and lower costs while the easy access to labor could possibly make up for the rest of the land costs.

Surely you're not worried about airplane noise in a car factory?

AngryData is making the point that it is cheap to build there because no one wants to live there.

As the poster above you wrote: 'East Europe wages' with 'West Europe capabilities'

That is about as good as it gets.

They probably got the land cheap and commitment to build at another record breaking pace.

Airports are normally located where land is cheap (example - "Denver" air port)

supply chain, labor?

I mean we used to build factories on the river for that reason. Made a royal mess, but easy to ship things in and out.

Why not both when you can have it? Clearly there is some just right place in Berlin

Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21517549

You were cheated, Mr Kebab, upvoted yours.

The number sold electric vehicles in germany is still exponential not saturated, the government recently announced to build additional charging stations across the country in the order of 10 thousands and to increase the (tax) incentives for hybrid and fully electric cars. It is a good time to build a factory for electric cars in germany. Berlin is a sweet spot when it comes to talent in high tech, suppliers and transport connection.

Except Germany has the highest energy prices in Europe, and as long as that doesn't change drastically, e-mobility is for a minority of enthusiasts and people who can afford to be bad at math. Just look at actual numbers of vehicles sold where Diesel still rules. Well, government could raise taxes on mineral oil (already at 63% [1]), but the German state is already drowning in cash and could issue bonds with negative yield. Charging stations are also an area where it goes completely wrong since these are owned and operated by municipalities and monopolist energy providers. Housing also goes wrong especially in Berlin where socialist government doesn't seem able to attract investors and plays ideological games for winning a left-wing electorate instead despite massive influx of 40000 people per year, in addition to energy-efficiency laws and lack of capacity making construction unprofitable (btw. solar industry also goes south).

[1]: https://www.bundesfinanzministerium.de/Content/DE/Standardar...

Within EU, immediate local demand is barely relevant compared to labor and manufacturing conditions, for setting up a factory. A Tesla factory in Germany will obviously supply at least the whole EU.

Last week, the government of New york wrote down the value of Gigafactory 2 in Buffalo, which has been mired in scandal:

https://www.syracuse.com/state/2019/08/elon-musk-is-full-of-...

Yesterday USA Today published an article about the disaster the Nevada factory has been for the State, and HN didn't care:

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/investigations/2019/1...

Today, Elon mentions a new factory one day will be built in Germany, and HN loves it. This company is bullet proof.

This is all good news. Just wondering about repairs globally as Tesla's start aging and they need to be repaired, or for whatever the current % of their vehicles require service year over year. They must have that info given the amount of telematics they generate AND that they are sole source for maintenance and repair.

With no carburetors, alternators, starter motors, fuel pumps, fuel filters, oil filters, oil leaks, gas leaks, exhaust buildup, spark plugs, timing belts, radiators, head gaskets, mufflers, rings, manifolds, belts... and with brake pads that last forever... it's significantly less maintenance.

And Teslas are not designed to milk the consumer for repairs over the years; they are designed to convince consumers that electric cars are a better choice.

The Model 3 is designed to last 1 million miles. So sure, it will be fascinating to see how they do... but that's like 25 or more years from now.

> and with brake pads that last forever.

Not true if you live in an area where the roads are salted in the winter. Then they don't last any longer than on an ICE car unless you reduce or turn off regenerative braking. I had to have two replaced at the last service because of rust for just that reason and the car is only four years old (Model S).

Tesla's advice was to reduce regen in the winter so that the brakes get used a bit more. A colleague also suggests doing an emergency stop once a year in the summer on a dry road to scour the brakes, not tried it, no idea if it would really be effective.

Yes exception for very cold weather when regen is limited. Not so much to do with road salting, just use of brake pads versus non use, although salt could help cause rust to disks, not pads, which could in turn affect pads. But yes certain conditions may vary.

> Then they don't last any longer than on an ICE car unless you reduce or turn off regenerative braking.

This makes no sense. Reducing or turning off regen would make brake pad wear worse, not better. As an owner I assume you know your stuff so typo maybe?

German newspapers report that the availability of power from renewable sources was a big plus for Elon Musk.

Headline should be corrected: the site is near Berlin, but not in Berlin.

Reported site is Grünheide, some 40 km drive from Brandenburger Tor, and a bit shorter distance from the under-construction BER airport.

https://www.berlin.de/en/news/5972608-5559700-elon-musk-tesl...

What makes me curious is that this village is actually within a nature protection area, Naturschutzgebiet Löcknitztal. I could imagine that building such a symbol of international market economy there might attract anti-capitalist demonstrators and involve protesting and riots. But perhaps I'm wrong.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Gr%C3%BCnheide,+Saksa/@52....

I also find it somewhat interesting that in the political composition of this village of 8000 residents, the Social Democrats and Linke (Left) have 3 seats, and two seats are held by CDU, AfD, and.... Freiwillige Feuerwehr.

Yes, the voluntary fire brigade is apparently popular enough to feature in local politics. I think this is a somewhat sympathetic phenomenon in German local politics.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gr%C3%BCnheide_(Mark)

Looking at that map I'd assume they're planning on building the factory in the cleared area at the top, just off the Lichtenower Weg, with good close access to Highway 1.

Yes, that makes sense.

It's a bit of a shame that there's no Google Street View in much of Germany.

It seems my guess was wrong. This map [1] shows where the factory will be cited (apparently based on some German media reports).

[1] https://i.redd.it/eze28dydmiy31.png

Good stuff.

I see Tesla & Berlin playing out well.

Bunch of tech nomads hide out in Berlin and I'm sure the city is keen to steal market share from more traditional German car powerhouse cities.

German labour laws are very well suited plus there labour pool of qualified people is also very large.

why are german labour laws very well suited? Tesla had several incidents with injured workers and safety violations

> Tesla had several incidents with injured workers and safety violations

More than the industry average in the state of California? If so, care to site your source?

Numerous, repeated stories over the years. They keep claiming they've improved, and it's possible they have, but stories keep surfacing.

https://riskandinsurance.com/5-takeaways-from-teslas-safety-...

I would have guessed the opposite. Germany is known for having all sorts of restrictions

Cars are high-price, low-volume goods, and Tesla loves automating their factories. If you're making a car you don't want low regulation, you want highly qualified labor, and stable and predictable regulation.

I know that's how Elon Musk sells his factories. But in reality, people are moving around boxes with their bare hands and getting their fingers crushed.

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/investigations/2019/1...

> Lane Dillon, an engineering student, lost the tip of his finger in a workplace accident at the Tesla Gigafactory that was never reported to OSHA.

I wonder if the rent freeze in Berlin will have any effect on Tesla attracting top talent.

It’s less of a good idea than the people here seem to think (especially Germans). Germany, as a shareholder of VW and very dependent upon taxes paid by all German car manufacturers is the “enemy” and has a large arsenal of methods available to hurt Tesla on its turf.

That is really interesting. What expertise are you speaking from?

Awesome win for Berlin.

Could build it on the old airport.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Brandenburg_Airport#Pro...

It was originally intended to replace both Schönefeld and Berlin Tegel Airport and become the single commercial airport serving Berlin and the surrounding State of Brandenburg, an area with a combined 6 million inhabitants. However, it is now planned that it will not replace any, with Schönefeld Airport currently being expanded due to rising passenger numbers, and Tegel which will remain open after a referendum.

After almost 15 years of planning, construction began in 2006. Originally planned to open in October 2011, the airport has encountered a series of delays and cost overruns.

Since German reunification, air traffic in Berlin has grown greatly. In 1991, the combined passenger volume of the city's airports was at 7.9 million per year. By 2014, this number had risen to 28 million. When Berlin Brandenburg opens, it will have a capacity of 27 million passengers per year.

Summarized: when/if BER will open, if it will manage to handle immediately its max capacity (best-case scenario), it won't have enough capacity => the other airports will still be needed (until BER is expanded) :|

Crazy to think that Tesla will likely get a factory done in less than a year.

I'm guessing they'll take longer to get things done in Germany than in China, but hoping that they'll bring their relentless efficiency to Europe as well :)

I meant Tempelhof

A quite nice recovery attempt - respect (unluckily the parent threads didn't mention Tempelhof nor did the anchor article of this discussion, therefore Tempelhof seems to be out-of-context. Additionally, after considering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Tempelhof_Airport#Post-... : the post does not seem to take into consideration its current situation and therefore does not seem to be realistic).

https://brandenburg-braucht-tegel.de/

There are a lot of Berliners who love Tegel and don't want it to close even when BBI is eventually open (whenever that may be). TXL is truly a fantastic airport, and would become even better when not overcrowded.

Terminal A is great, separate security queues for each gate means you can arrive 20 mins before your flight leaves and it's fine, provided you're flying BA or Lufthansa...

B, C and D are as crappy as you'd expect hosting sleazyjet, ryanair, germanwings etc etc, although it's 80% business flights in the mornings and seasoned air travelers tend to make security and so on less bothersome than if you arrive at the same time as 150 hungover brits trying to get back to gatwick.. ;)

there are a lot of cool projects to be built in the area of Tegel, including more housing. My University wants/needs to expand its campus there too and people who bought apartments in the area would get screwed over if Tegel would stay. It needs to go.

How would people who bought apartments next to the airport get screwed over? Are you suggesting that a potentially-inaccurate prediction of the future was priced in?

Millions of more people use Tegel than use those apartments, and if they aren’t “screwed over” living near the airport today, they wouldn’t be if it stayed open.

I meant Tempelhof :D

You really think turning a popular public park (or if you mean the buildings, a publicly owned/used building with preservation status) in a central-ish location in the city, with worse freight transport connections than the airport, into a factory is a sensible or politically viable solution?

Near Berlin means the state of Brandenburg, which is famous for failed mega projects:

- Airport BER (still not open)

- Cargolifter airship factory (now used as a waterpark)

- Lausitzring (was supposed to host the F1, now hugely unprofitable)

- Semiconductor factory in Frankfurt/Oder (abandoned, only the building got finished)

I am not aware of one single project that materialized as planned. The odds are against Elon on this one...

You can always put a project into a reference class consisting only of failed projects. You can also put this project into the class of Tesla factories, none of which failed so far.

For some reason the Age of Empires multiplayer taunt 'Hey, I'm in your town' comes to mind.

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