Fitness for geeks: my annual review of the Stronglifts 5x5 program | Hacker News Reader

Fitness for geeks: my annual review of the Stronglifts 5x5 program

tomaskohl.com

61 pointsteekay92 comments

The simple truth is that any (non-crackpot) regimented training program will significantly improve a geek's fitness. Learning the minute details of weight training, nutrition, and other (important!) subjects is for marginal gains on top of a base level of fitness which the majority of the population lacks.

Learn enough to safely accomplish basic exercises without ego-shattering self-consciousness, do them routinely and with an increasing level of difficulty, and you will become more fit. Great research on procrastination suggests that too many choices for what to do will lead you to not do anything. If you are not already at a base level of "good shape", whether you lift in one program or another, jog, play sports, or walk the stairs at work, you are NOT going to choose "wrong".

Guaranteed or your money back.

(Please note that I say this as a diehard HST-devotee who cross trains for soccer and MMA. But none of that stuff mattered when I was gassed after 30 minutes of light exercise.)

Learning the minute details of weight training, nutrition, and other (important!) subjects is for marginal gains on top of a base level of fitness which the majority of the population lacks.

This point cannot be stressed enough! I've been strength training for years and have seen way to many people over think what needs to be done. Friends who just start working out come to me with questions like 'what if I miss a rep on my workout' or 'should I use avocado oil instead of olive oil'? Huh? It's not that complicated. In fact it's quite simple.

Learn enough to do the basic exercises safely and then...GO DO THEM! When you can do them with a certain weight, add more weight. Repeat. As an aside, a close second to the first point is to log everything. It's hard to improve if you're not measuring.

The problem is the same one that comes up with diets. People are looking for an easier solution when there simply isn't one. The person who gets to the gym and busts their ass a few times/week will be way ahead than the guy stuck sitting on his computer researching the best way to do finger curls[1].

[1] And another pet peeve. Skinny guys doing 20 sets of curls. Please go buy a book like mentioned above and just follow a workout from it. If you're doing enough pulling like you should, curls can usually be skipped all together.

I highly endorse the above. Most people fall into the same trap as careless developers trying to optimize a program: they focus on what is easy, instead of what will make the largest difference.

I would only modify one your post in one way:

    < As an aside, a close second to the first point is to log everything.
    > As an aside, a close second to the first point is to LOG EVERYTHING.

As a minor addition, after you have engaged in the "GO DO THEM" and the "LOG EVERYTHING" part for a while, you'll notice when you reach a plateau. This is the time when asking for help/interneting/optimizing is helpful. Usually I'm not eating enough, your mistakes may vary.

One more tip: most of the big guys at the gym are friendly. If one of them asks to work in, let him, and ask him to watch your form during your sets.

One more tip: most of the big guys at the gym are friendly. If one of them asks to work in, let him, and ask him to watch your form during your sets.

Most people at the gym are either itimidated by, or presume that the biggest, buff guys are the most unfriendly.

The fact of the matter is, they have put a lot of time and effort into something they enjoy or are good at and are more than willing to help out with advice.

If you feel you're doing something wrong, or not sure .. just go and ask.

But be aware that lots of people at the gyms (especially including employees) are doing the exercises with bad form, or concentrate on the wrong things (i.e. endless curls, and you almost never see squats).

Get a book like `Starting Strength'. Then talk to the guys in the gym. There are generally helpful---but it's useful to have non-bullshit source to compare their suggestions with.

Good point, results do tend to speak for themselves .. a guy with pins for legs and gorilla arms obviously wouldn't be a good starting point for squat technique

Yes. And some people may take steroids, so they get strong without needing much proper stimulus.

I don't think this is true. My understanding is that steroids speed up your recovery phase - you can work out 7 days/week (and make commensurate gains) instead of simply 3 days + 4 recovery days.

They certainly don't prevent you from destroying your back during a deadlift with poor form.

What about the stuff that makes cows gets muscles while just standing in the stables?

You are correct. Steroids allow the user to work harder and more often.

With weight training, for example, not worrying about the details and just doing it might lead to serious injury. You need to do these exercises with proper form. And if you're an out of shape computer geek, you will almost certainly need to fix your posterior chain and upper back before you are ready to do deadlift, squat, bench, and shoulder press safely.

You can squat, deadlift, bench and shoulder press on your first day. Here is a simple, two step process to start squatting:

1. Stand up.

2. Squat.

Oh, there's a lot more to it. And some people actually find air squats harder than weighted squats because there's no counter-balance. But the basic powerlifter movements - squat, deadlift, bench - can be done by people on their first day as long as they use very little weight. In fact, I think it's best to start with those movements to build strength. Having someone to correct your form is good, of course, but not everyone has that luxury and may have to monitor themselves. That's doable as well.

The idea that proper form is self evident or intuitively learned is naive, especially in regard to people whose daily responsibilities don't demand much coordination. If you want to look good for a few years, then yes, you can develop muscle by just going through the motions, but you run a very big risk of systemic injury. I highly recommend anyone looking to get in shape start with a few sessions with a personal trainer who can give feedback on form.

It's not intuitive nor self evident. But a motivated beginner can learn on their own - I did. I read a lot, watched videos, and paid close attention to my own form. I would have done better with an instructor, but that was not an option. Most "personal trainers" I saw knew nothing about basic, free weight lifts.

What I'm trying to dispel is the notion that you shouldn't touch free weights or that free weights are for experienced people only. Use very low weight in the beginning, but no one should start out on machines, nor should they be scared of starting.

Most "personal trainers" I saw knew nothing about basic, free weight lifts.

This is spot-on where I live. (Kerala, India)

The trainers have no experience with proper form coaching for the basic powerlifting exercises.

All the gyms here promote themselves as 'Bodybuilding gyms'.

All the members want to look like the muscle-bound moviestars from 'Bollywood' (presumably to get 'ze girls' :p)

I'm maybe 1 of 3 people in the whole gym clientele(all male) that even uses the Squat Rack. I'm on Stronglifts 5x5 for a month now and my lifts are definitely improving and so is my flexibility and core 'balance'.

Surprising side-effect: I don't feel 'clumsy' anymore.

And yeah, I get into long winded arguments with the 'trainers' twice a month, about why i don't use the cable machines for 'ze body'.

As an engineer at heart, I like to explain the idea to them something like: "You can pimp your cheap-ass car with all the bling you want, but when it counts, the German engine is going to make the difference. Besides, there's no harm in adding bling after you've got your own finely-tuned German engine under the hood"

Yes, its corny, but it got the message across and got the 'trainers' off my back.

I too am one of the only people in my gym who seems to care about building strength as opposed to trying to look like it.

As an anecdotal example: I finished five sets of farmer's walks with 105 pound (about 47 and a half kilograms) dumbbells in each hand. After I'd finished, I was approached by a bodybuilder type and told that I was wasting my time. What I really needed to do, he explained, was to do lunges in place, because what I was doing now wasn't "doing anything."

Apparently being able to pick up two hundred pounds of weight and walk around with it wasn't "doing anything."

Honestly, you're wasting your time getting into it with people like this. It's just a fundamentally different mindset. I just thank them politely for their advice (after all, they really do mean well, they just don't understand) and get on with my routine.

A bodybuilder-type once asked me what farmer's walks "works." Everything, I said.

Bodybuilders don't have much concept of conditioning, outside of being able to flex for long periods of time. Powerlifters care about raw strength, but for them, conditioning is being able to hit several very high lifts in the big three at a meet. It is a kind of conditioning, no question, but they're still going to gas pretty soon in any prolonged activity. Strongmen competitors, on the other hand, I think are phenomenal athletes who combine enormous strength with great conditioning.

Deadlifts, squats, and shoulder presses, done right, will fix your posterior chain and upper back. The trick is avoiding the ego-lift and only do as much as is safe and with proper form.

The bigger trick is having someone to show and critique your form.

(Gah, I miss lifting!)

Two things that weight training doesn't address is inward shoulder rotation/slumping and "turtle neck," something all people working at a keyboard are prone to. You really have to pay attention and make sure you pull your shoulders back, and keep your head and neck in alignment with the spine by pulling your head back and up (you might need to tilt it down, too).

Bench pressing can make the inward shoulders significantly worse by tightening the pectorals. I had a pretty bad problem and didn't realize it until I went to a posture specialist. Now I'm really aware of it - a lot of gym rats seem to have it.

Apparently squats and deadlifts will give you pretty extreme imbalances in the hip muscles (that's what the posture specialist and a deep-tissue masseur told me after working on me). You can fix that by stretching. I don't know if it matters, because it doesn't seem to affect me functionally or aesthetically.

> Two things that weight training doesn't address is inward shoulder rotation/slumping and "turtle neck," something all people working at a keyboard are prone to.

On the contrary, weight training will address exactly that, provided you balance pulling with pressing. Most "gym rats", as you say, seem to do nothing but bench press and curls. The bench press will, if not balanced by pulling, exaggerate the internal shoulder rotation.

Deadlifts, Rows, Pullups (or lat pulldowns if you must) -- all strengthen the back, and offset the shoulder rotation issues.

> Apparently squats and deadlifts will give you pretty extreme imbalances in the hip muscles (that's what the posture specialist and a deep-tissue masseur told me after working on me). You can fix that by stretching. I don't know if it matters, because it doesn't seem to affect me functionally or aesthetically.

This is also not true. Many gym trainees who actually attempt to squat will do it with a very narrow stance, and a very shallow depth. This makes it a quad dominant exercise, which could be a problem if they didn't also deadlift. However, a full depth back squat is a very balanced exercise, and will do wonders to increase hip mobility, not to mention strength. Deadlifts are the single best exercise for strengthening the posterior chain, which anyone who picks something heavy up off the ground needs.

Many people avoid squatting and deadlifting because they think they will hurt themselves, so they end up doing much worse things: leg press, smith machine squats, hack squats. Instead, learn the lifts properly ("Starting Strength" by Mark Rippetoe is a fabulous book for this), and you will realize how valuable they are.

"Deadlifts, Rows, Pullups (or lat pulldowns if you must) -- all strengthen the back, and offset the shoulder rotation issues."

They don't because the pulling muscles don't have full range of motion. Your lats pull your arms but not your shoulders, and your traps pull your shoulders up. The muscles pulling your shoulder blades together never get enough work to start tightening and offsetting the pull from the tightening pecs.

Deadlifts are great for most spinal erectors, but don't do enough for your neck to get proper alignment if you sit in front of the computer all day.

"However, a full depth back squat is a very balanced exercise, and will do wonders to increase hip mobility, not to mention strength."

Not really. I've never seen anyone with a fully balanced squat. Either the quads or (usually) the hamstrings will dominate. Squats will probably increase hip mobility for someone who has poor hip mobility and hasn't squatted before, but they're also a quick way to get hip flexor and posterior chain tightness if you don't offset it with stretching.

> Two things that weight training doesn't address is inward shoulder rotation/slumping and "turtle neck," something all people working at a keyboard are prone to. You really have to pay attention and make sure you pull your shoulders back, and keep your head and neck in alignment with the spine by pulling your head back and up (you might need to tilt it down, too).

I'll watch out, thanks! Though I feel that with power cleans, pull-ups/chin-ups, and a standing desk at work, those problems might not hit me as hard.

> Bench pressing can make the inward shoulders significantly worse by tightening the pectorals. I had a pretty bad problem and didn't realize it until I went to a posture specialist. Now I'm really aware of it - a lot of gym rats seem to have it.

At least alternate your bench presses with overhead presses. And do something for your shoulders.

Is this true for below parallel squats, too? And what kind of stretching?

There's no way to compensate for tightening pectorals by weightlifting because the antagonist muscles have no range of motion - the best you can do is push your shoulder blades together. That's why you have to stretch your pecs and consciously work to pull your shoulders back when you're standing. The standing desk is probably a really good idea for preventing "turtle neck," because as far as I know there's no weight exercise where you push your head back and stretch the neck out (again, this is something that I do consciously now when walking).

Lower-body imbalances from squats will depend on how wide your stance is, where you point your knees, and how you use your muscles. Generally narrow and pointing forward you'll use quads, wider and out and it's glutes or hamstrings. I was definitely a hamstrings-dominant squatter and as a result I have tight hip flexors and hamstrings (this is apparently pretty common).

Thanks for the information about the tightening pectorals. Now I know what you mean. I sometimes see this postural problem at the gym with people who are in love with bench presses.

> The standing desk is probably a really good idea for preventing "turtle neck," because as far as I know there's no weight exercise where you push your head back and stretch the neck out (again, this is something that I do consciously now when walking).

Actually, that sounds like what I am doing at the end of a deadlift. Pull-ups and power cleans may also contribute.

But I'll watch out anyway.

I'll look up the muscles used on the squat. I am not that familiar with the anatomical names---in German we tended to use the vernacular.

If you are a beginner and gym unfriendly, I have found that strength training sites oriented towards women spend a lot more time talking about proper form (because they know many women won't just turn up to a gym - they want to train in private to start with).

Eg:

http://www.stumptuous.com/worship-at-the-altar-of-the-goddes...

Start with little or no weight. I started my squat with the bar and 2x25 pound weights. I've reached 4x45 pound weights + the bar after about a year. I took it slow and steady because I did not want to injure myself. I actually had someone compliment my squat form the other day! Thats a great feeling knowing where you started. Like anything, you just need to devote effort to getting better.

Similar for me. I started with just the bar (20kg) in April, and am now at 120kg (i.e. bar plus two 45 pound weights and one 12.5 pound weight on each side).

Just make sure you log everything, and keep pushing yourself, but with good form. Squat to (slightly below) parallel.

I agree on the proper form. But free weight are on of the best ways to fix your posterior chain and upper back.

Pull-ups, press-ups, running and jumping also work wonders for beginners, and it's even harder to get those dangerously wrong. (That is, as long as you don't wear shoes while running. Shoes will make good running form much harder.)

Just start slowly, log everything, and build your way up.

Don't waste your time, and your form on the gym-machines.

>The simple truth is that any (non-crackpot) regimented training program will significantly improve a geek's fitness.

Taking a daily walk outside is a good start. By doing so you shift your attention into a different environment and into moving the body. This somehow recharges the mental batteries, which in turn improves one's physical health.

One tweak can significantly increase the benefit at little extra cost. During the walk, take one short sprint (long enough to lose your breath slightly; it'll probably take less than a minute).

I can't explain why this helps but it does seem to help me. Something to do with keeping aerobic capacity in trim?

I cannot second this enough. When I was just starting exercising I was overthinking things and it was a waste of time. The important thing at the beginning was just to start doing something.

Once I started hitting plateaus then I started reading again and tweaking my routine to help get past them, but that was after several months working hard to develop a solid base.

Now, after being in grad school for a couple of years while working full time and raising kids, I lost a lot and I need to start working on my baseline again, but that is another story.

"Fitness" is kind of a vague term. What are your exact goals in regards to "fitness?" Are you training for endurance? Strength? Explosive power? Or are you training for a specific sport?

The "minute details" are anything but if you've got a specific goal in mind other than just "fitness."

Totally agree. People look always for the blue pill.

Highly detailed training and nutrition plans are for advanced athletes.

I'm skeptical of anybody who claims to have a simple answer to success at weight training. The more I learn about weight training, the more ignorant I feel.

A few books I've enjoyed lately are 'Starting Strength' by Rippetoe and Killgore and Brookfield's 'Master of Hand Strength'. The latter book is a real eye-opener: every page is stuffed with information that makes sense, but you never would have thought of. (Hand development, of course, is important for computer keyboardists.)

Although it's not a complete weightlifting manual, I like the attitude of Bruce Lee's 'Art of Expressing the Human Body', which turned me on to circuit training. Some other good books which are more focused on bodyweight training are Cook's 'Athletic Body in Balance' and Boyle's 'Functional Training For Sports'.

   People with with injuries or chronic pain can benefit greatly from training,  but they need to be smart about it.

  For instance,  my knees are wonky so I watch my workload and avoid traditional 2-leg extension exercises such as the leg press and the 2-leg squat.  Instead I do single-leg exercises and intense hamstring work that has stabilized my knees.

   At some point you're going to transcend other people's cookie-cutter programs.  For instance,  reading Lee and Brookfield has gotten me to focus on forearm and grip strength,  because everybody I see who lifts has big upper arms and scrawny forearms.  The more you learn about it,  the more you'll discover there is to learn.

The Stronglift 5x5 program is basically the Starting Strength program with a few modifications.

Personally I think 5x5 is too much volume compared to SS' 3x5.

It's not bad - you can crank it out for quite a while. When you pass 2xbw on the squats and 2.5xbw on the deadlifts (which are done at 1x5) it starts to get tougher.

It is if you don't take the advice to rest in between sets. They're quite clear on this point - rest for up to five minuites in between sets. Otherwise, yes, it is too much volume.

Yes.

I started out with Stronglift 5x5, but switched to Starting Strength when my copy arrived. It's a shame that Stronglift 5x5 postpones power cleans.

I've been considering using 5x5's volume for Starting Strength, but Starting Strength 3x5 is already taking up quite a lot of time. But I added some dips, pull-ups and chin-ups; they are useful for climbing.

At some point you're going to transcend other people's cookie-cutter programs.

True, but stronglifts (and starting strength) are beginner programs. Most people's goals will be met long before they reach intermediate.

I'm doing stronglifts 5x5, slightly modified [1]. I've gone from being a scrawny weakling to having the minimum strength that every man should have. I'm hardly ripped, but I've made significant (30-75%, depending on exercise) gains in all parts of my body. I get frequent "whoah, you've been working out" comments. This is in spite of being a 2 meter tall hard gainer with freakishly long arms (I hate the law of the lever).

In short: your advice is probably good - I'm not advanced enough to have an opinion. Most of us are beginners and a cookie cutter program will get us past that point.

[1] I have a bad back, so I skip deadlifts. I'm also incorporating some dynamic exercises that involve more balance (turkish get ups, full body attacks, etc) on the recommendation of my martial arts instructor.

I'd recommend starting with `Starting Strength's cookie-cutter program, until you know what you are doing.

Any quick hint or URL you can give for forearm strength? I'm also doing some climbing and pull-ups/chin-ups, but I don't know whether that's enough.

If you want to work on grip strength by itself take a small wooden dowel and drill a hole through the middle. Tie a rope through the hole and then tie a weight to the other end. Now use your hands to roll the weight up and down.

Another fun one is a modified dead lift. Your plates need to have a lip on them to make it work. Put a plate on each side of a curl bar. Now DL the curl bar by only gripping with your finger tips around the lip of the plate.

Personally, my grip strength has increased the most from doing pulling exercises and dead lifts. I'm to the point now where I can DL 405lb w/o straps. I still need straps to get into the 500s though.

Thanks for the hints. What's a lip on a plate? (Sorry, English is only my second language.)

I'm doing 130kg at deadlifts at the moment. I never used straps. I use the overhand grip for all warm-up sets (40kg, 60kg, 82.5kg, 105kg at the moment) and the alternating grip for the working set.

I've also done some indoor climbing recently. That needs and works grip strength. (Though I'd like to improve between climbing sessions, too. That's why I asked.)

Instead of being smooth from center to edge there is a small 'lip' around the outside edge that can be used to grip on. If you set it up right you'll be doing deadlifts with only your finger tips providing the grip. Does that make sense? Here's a picture of a weight plate with a 'lip.'

http://www.promaximamfg.com/(S(smc4ibr3edzbljmooije5c55))/de...

Try reverse preacher curls and thumbless static hangs as a start.

If you're interested in improving grip strength take a look at the hand grippers from Captains of Crush (http://www.ironmind.com/ironmind/opencms/Main/captainsofcrus...)

Best I have found is continued practice of overhand grip heavy deadlifts. The thicker the bar the better.

Also, make it a habit to use the thicker bars if your gym has an option.

I've also heard a towel and pullup bar is another option. Wrap the towel around the pullup bar and hang on it as long as possible. I've never done this method.

My gym only has one size of bars. But I'll give modifying pull-ups a try.

> Any quick hint or URL you can give for forearm strength?

The deadlift worked well for increasing my grip and forarm strength. When you lift 400 lbs off the ground your grip has to improve.

Just don't use wrist straps, this leads to muscle imbalances. it's better to go slow and have your entire body's strength grow together.

Try the farmer walk: pick up two dumbbells and walk as far as you can with them. Rest, and repeat.

(Wonder why it's called the farmer walk? Ever see a farmer's forearms? :)

Captains of Crush. Go get some of them and work with them relentlessly.

Farmer's walk. Do it. Do it with heavy weights.

Deadlift will certainly do wonders for your grip as well.

Pull ups depend on the width of your arms, a wider grip is mainly working your lats, but they generally work biceps and back complexes.

Try http://exrx.net/Lists/ExList/ForeArmWt.html for exercises. Generally speaking, forearm strength is through wrist curls and movements.

Actually pull-ups and lat pull downs are often forearm/grip strength limited. In my case (and many of my friend's), I find that as my grip starts to fail, I have to work my back and arms even harder to transmit enough power.

In fact, you can see this demostrated by trying to do pull-ups or something on a thick bar sometime. It will crush you.

Captains of Crunch as mentioned by sister post is great stuff.

There's also the really old school style of just carrying heavy stuff in your hands and walking around for a good while. Just remember that most grip strength exercises focuses on one of con/iso/eccentric movements, so you might need to mix and match. Also, depending on what you need, you'll have to mix up low rep high weight, as well as low weight high rep. With grip, it's not just a question of how hard you can pull, but really how long you can pull, and more importantly, how long you can pull while your forearms are -dying-, which is something you'll miss out if you did all low rep stuff.

For learning how to do the exercises, Starting Strength is worth the purchase. Even if you don't follow the program. It is used as the reference for squat, deadlift, press, and bench technique by many.

There is also a DVD and some YouTube videos out there with Rippetoe that greatly help.

For squats, also check out SquatRX on YouTube.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=C03D688F10C4DE1F

I should point to Louie Simmons gym site: http://www.westside-barbell.com/

Those articles there are just indispensable for trained athlete (I exercise for four years now). I recently discovered it and used some tips and tricks Louie wrote about. I used "Good Morning" for lower back strength, I learned that trained athlete will adapt to any change in training routine in two weeks so you have to change routines quite often. I think that anyone will find something valuable there.

And yes, there are depths and spaces on what you have to learn to progress in weight training.

Meta: Why did you indent the last three paragraphs?

From my perspective, I didn't "do it", it just happened.

Couldn't find your email, but I wanted to ask if it would be OK to excerpt the first the paragraphs of your book recommendations into a training article I'm writing.

Free weight strength training is one of the greatest things you could do to improve your health.

The program to which you refer (http://stronglifts.com/stronglifts-5x5-beginner-strength-tra...) seems to be a slightly different spin on Mark Ripptoe's legendary Starting Strength program (http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/The_Starting_Strength...).

If you are serious about improving your strength and health in general, buy Mark's book (http://www.amazon.com/Starting-Strength-2nd-Mark-Rippetoe/dp...). It is probably the best $30 investment I have ever made.

NB: I am in no way affiliated with Mark Rippetoe. I simply have incredible respect for the man.

His book Practical Programming is also good if you want a slightly more advanced take on the subject. It still has a chapter going over this beginning workout and why it makes sense. Even though most people don't need the advanced training programs, it's damn interesting to read about the science behind them.

http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Programming-Strength-Trainin...

You can also find lots of videos of Rippetoe coaching on youtube. I still recommend buying his book, but you can convince yourself that he's sane first.

+1 on Starting Strength. It helped a lot with my form.

Looks like his web server has died, here is the Google cache version: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?hl=en&q=cac...

It's back up again.

I've used 5 x 5 to get in shape before. A lot of it made sense to me.. Free weights are "better" than machines, squats are important, start light learn the form and increase weight as you go.

I too was turned off by the author of the program - he comes across as a real dick in his forums -- It's analogous to the "if you're not doing everything the scrum way don't call what you're doing scrum" hardliners.

What's important to a newbie is the structure and the gradual, incremental improvements. As Henry Rollins says "the iron doesn't lie" If each week you're adding 5lbs that's measurable improvement and helps with the motivation.

I like to think of going to the gym like leveling up my constitution :)

Regardless if you do 5 x 5 or do "starting strength" just do something and get over the initial inertia. You'll be sore as hell that first week, but it does get better.

My other suggestion is bring a friend of similar level of non-fitness and start together (assuming you don't sabotage each other by talking each other OUT of going to the gym each time) -- makes it less embarrassing when you have a partner who is also struggling with a small amount of weight on the bar -- it's not a contest, but a little healthy competition and support goes a long way.

Also try not to compare yourself to the meatheads in the gym with multiple huge wheels of cheese on the bar... don't be intimidated. You're there to get stronger and that's it.

shrug

The 5x5 programs are usually geared towards intermediates. I've done a few cycles of Bill Starr's 5x5 program but only after I'd learned the rudiments of weight training. I'd use starting strength as a beginning point, then progress to 5x5, HST, MaxOT and any of the other programs you might find at bodybuilding forums.

I've been working out off and on since I was in high school and I figured I would try something different this time around. I started with the HST program and have been absolutely floored by the results. It sounds lime the 5x5 program he mentioned might be similar.

Anyway, the idea that muscles respond to increases in load more than the absolute load itself, combined with the idea that sets beyond the first working set offer little value sounded opposite to most of what I've heard over the years. Six months in I've developed faster and more evenly then I ever have. Anyway, it's worth looking into. Do a search for Hypertrophy Specific Training (the site is all muscle-guy crazy but the info is good—and free, the dude makes his money on supplement sales, not selling his program)

Thank you very much for mentioning HST.

I assume it is here: http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_index.html as it is top of the Google search.

Information from that website puts some things in proper context, like pumping to heal tendon damage.

That's the one. I would have linked it in my first post but I was writing on my phone. There are a lot of things on there that clarified or outright changed my view of weight training. I've been doing this program for the last six months and not only have I made more progress in shorter time than ever before, I also haven't hit plateaus, given myself an injury, or burnt out. And I only spend about 2:30 hours per week in the gym.

I did some research and looked into the Colorado Experiment, and as of late, Tim Ferriss' Occam's protocol. From there I mix and matched what I thought would be right after doing some research on the muscle groups I was looking to hit.

The basic concept is 1 set til failure, 5/5 cadence (5 seconds lifting / 5s lowering).

I've seen amazing gains within the past month I've been on the program. Have increased some of my weights by up to 120%, whilst the minimum increase has been 40%.

When you lower and raise the weight slowly, you require less force to overcome inertia. This means you can lift more for the same amount of muscle fibre recruitment.

The downside is that you will eventually detrain for power production (that is, force over distance over time).

This difference in time -- and therefore power -- is why superheavy Olympic weightlifters can squat 400kg and only snatch 210kg.

Interesting. Though Rippetoe recommends not training to failure, because you'll also train to fail. He recommends also having proper form. I have to think and research about what should prevail.

Anyway, I've also seen some extremely big relative improvements in my squats on the first month I started.

When I can't maintain proper form, I consider that failure.

Yes. And Rippetoe wants you to always maintain proper form on all reps, or at least he doesn't want you to plan to fail one rep out of your set.

Though I don't know which is regime better, yet. By default I follow Rippetoe when in doubt, because he's generally a sane guy and knows more than me.

increased some of my weights by up to 120%

Just to be sure, do you mean that if you were lifting 50 lbs before in some exercise, you're now lifting 110 lbs?

Yes, that's right. It was on my triceps and leg curls. (When you start in lower weights, the increase doesn't seem as drastic.)

I see someone has also down voted my original post, I guess that's because I mention Tim Ferriss. sigh

And is that with just two workouts every week ?

Yes, each workout is just 10m each too. Incredibly intense, though. I've spent maybe 100 minutes total time in the gym, and have seen incredible results.

In theory it might be beautiful, but I'd say 5x5 is a pretty awful way to start if you are new to lifting weights.

If you've been sitting on a chair for 8-12 hours a day you will have lots of muscular imbalances that needs to be corrected before starting a program like this.

For instance, you will most likely not be able to activate your glutes during the squat or deadlift. Your lower back will take the load. Meet pain and, if you are unlucky, injury...

> In theory it might be beautiful, but I'd say 5x5 is a pretty awful way to start if you are new to lifting weights.

Then you've obviously never tried it. It's actually a wonderful starting program. I lifted for years and never made remotely the progress I have on 5x5. I wish I could go back and tell myself to start it sooner!

> If you've been sitting on a chair for 8-12 hours a day you will have lots of muscular imbalances that needs to be corrected before starting a program like this.

Rubbish. They'll get corrected quite fast by actually doing the exercises.

> > In theory it might be beautiful, but I'd say 5x5 is a pretty awful way to start if you are new to lifting weights.

> Then you've obviously never tried it. It's actually a wonderful starting program. I lifted for years and never made remotely the progress I have on 5x5. I wish I could go back and tell myself to start it sooner!

Yes I have tried it and I love it. I'm actually doing it right now. But you really do not catch my point. You say "I lifted for years and never made remotely the progress I have on 5x5". I say: good for you. Of course you should continue on this program. But as you said yourself you had years of lifting experience before starting on 5x5. My point is that it is a no good starting point if you have never been lifting before.

I disagree. The fact that I made progress on this program proves it's worth. My prior experience with weight lifting isn't really relevant, especially given the multi-year layoff in between. When I came to stronglifts I was, for all intents and purposes, starting all over again. Based on my experience with it so far, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it to a beginner - and in fact, have.

It's important to note - at the risk of sounding like i'm appealing to authority - that the people who originally advocated this program have years of experience training themselves, and training other people. At least one well known proponent has a relevant degree. And no, these are not your usual PHd in bro-science "trainers" - they've trained elite competitors and olympic atheletes. If they say this a good program for beginners, I'm inclined to take them at their word.

Having watched most of the beginners at the gym I'm at now, I can say for a fact that stronglifts would be a hell of a lot better than the average beginner's routine of sixty sets of curls, 20 sets of calf raises, 10 sets of reverse-incline-dumbell-flye-extension-no-set-hyper-mega-extensions, etc. etc....

That's primarily why the program (and Starting Strength) preaches starting at the minimum weight possible (usually just the 45lb bar) for each exercise, even if you're confident you can do more.

This way you start at the bottom at each exercise, focus on getting your form right first, and then start stacking up weights. Better to take some time getting to lifting heavier things than to rush and make a mistake.

Yes, exactly this. People don't hurt themselves by doing exercises with the wrong form - they hurt themselves by doing them in the wrong form with too much weight!

> If you've been sitting on a chair for 8-12 hours a day you will have lots of muscular imbalances that needs to be corrected before starting a program like this.

Perhaps. But what can you recommend to correct those imbalances that's at least as good than e.g. very low-weight deadlifts and (air-) squats?

Hip mobility and glute activation, in that order. Every day, for a month or two would be a good start.

http://stronglifts.com/7-dynamic-stretches-to-improve-your-h...

http://stronglifts.com/how-to-optimize-posterior-chain-power...

Do some military presses, pushups and pullups on top of this and you'll be ready for action.

Can't read the article since the server seems to have died but if you want a combination of the strength training in Starting Strength and the conditioning for sports like cross country skiing or soccer, Crossfit is excellent. I've been doing it for a little over 2 years now and it combines all the aspects of getting strong with the ability to do activities like skiing and soccer easily.

I went from SL to Olympic weightlifting.

A definite nerd sport -- totally about the elegant union of physics and biology.

After tearing my achilles two years ago I became determined to fix my body's structural imbalances. I cannot say enough about how powerful the Stronglifts program is (and other similar programs). As a part of my training (along with a lot of pilates and yoga) I have done the StrongLifts program. I had done some weight training previously, was comfortable with each one of the lifts, and could find my way around the weight room. I think StrongLifts was the perfect lifting program for my situation, and will be to anyone else in a similar place. Im going to comment a bit more about the actual program, what you need to know about it, and why I recommend it.

Stronglifts uses two alternating workouts A, B. The program focuses on eight different lifts (see site for full details). Workout A is Squats, Bench, Inverted Rows, Push Ups; Workout B is Squats, Overhead Press, Deadlifts, PullUps/ChinUps. The goal of the program is to build as much pure strength as possible. And it works. Doing compound lifts like this allows you to use as much muscle as possible while lifting the maximum amount of weight. The downside is that these lifts are not the easiest to learn. The key is to START LIGHT. Keep the weight light- lighter than you think- until you are consistently lifting with good form.

If you are going to the gym with the goal of living a healthier life then you are wasting your time if you are not squatting. Please - learn how to squat, learn how to do it correctly, and get your butt as close to the ground as your flexibility allows. A full-depth squat is healthier for knees, develops additional muscles (mostly your butt), and is very impressive when you are putting up 2xx pounds on your squat and your butt is almost touching the ground.

Learning correct form for any lift is essential. Please learn the right form when the weights are light. Once the weight gets higher your chances of injury from incorrect form skyrocket. Learning a lift incorrectly also makes it harder to learn correctly. So do it right the first time.

Now for my actual Stronglifts review. I love it. I am addicted to it. I never in my life imagined I would be lifting as much as I am. I would not have gotten here without sticking to Stronglifts. I like Stronglifts because you know exactly how much you have to lift each day. There is an equation for everything. If you have a shitty day and cant lift something you just go back the next time and try again. There is no way to cheat but at the same time you are always progressing. If your squat is struggling your bench might be feeling great. I always had progress to motivate me to go back.

That is the real key to any workout program, consistency. It does not matter what program you do- Stronglifts, starting strength, 3x5, 10x54, lean body now, grandma chair exercises, etc- just pick something and stick to it. Go to the gym when you feel great or when you feel like shit. I love doing squats. Doing squats 5x5 three times a week sucks no matter how you look at it. What keeps me going back is the sense of accomplishment you feel after lifting weights you never though possible. That and the huge/strong muscles part...

1) The health benefits of weight lifting using compound movements are not to be taken lightly- you may be shocked at what your body becomes after a year of committed work in the gym.

2) You are wasting your time going to the gym to lift weights if you are: not sticking to a program & documenting your workout (yes- gym notebook required), not doing full depth squats, not doing compound lifts.

I agree.

Something specific: I recommend you look into power cleans.

Power cleans work lots of muscle---like the squat, and they give you fast strength. They are also hugely exhausting for my cardiovascular system and get me out of breath even on the low weight warm-ups.

The Stronglifts website has a suggestion on what exercise you can replace with them. Or just add them. Rippetoe has them every second workout alternating with deadlifts.

I've been doing compound barbell lifts (usually 3x5 on dl, squat, bench, bar row, body pull-up) for almost 6 months now - I've lost a significant amount of weight and improved my posture, confidence, and appearance.

By combining this with 10x sprints twice a week, it's absolutely amazing how fast you can drop fat.

I've still got bad habits that set back my progress, but it's a marathon, not a sprint! Turning into a fit person isn't going to happen overnight, and I believe the only sustainable way to do it is through slow lifestyle changes.

Just my 2 cents. Go to the gym and start lifting barbells!

Famous words from one of America's best former governors

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drioQ137NhA#t=0m34s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0A1CZ2XJXM#t=4m01s

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