Are you sure you're not confusing people abusing party drugs with people meditating while under psychedelics?
There is no reason to believe that such a community of people is representative of the general population or the effects that psychedelics would have on them when combined with meditation and the guidance of one or more therapists.
Are there any psychedelics that are openly prescribed the way other "prescription drugs" are? I mean just saying "Abuse of prescription drugs" is such an ambiguous thing. If you're referring to opioids, etc that have an extreme physically addictive effect, that's not at all like how psychedelics work.
I do agree that always combining meditation with any substance could lead to a dependence on that substance to experience the deepest meditative states. However, used once in a while (which is the most I really want psychedelics anyway), I can agree with the findings in this paper, the experience sticks with you and can be remembered.
pazimzadeh's analogy is spot on.
> Right. If you're trying to metaphorically reach the peak of a mountain, psychedelics are like a helicopter that lets you fly around, find the path and even reach the top.
> It's possible that you'll grow to rely on the helicopter to climb the mountain, but hopefully what you take away from it is that there is in fact a path (or accept that there's not - and you might has well climb a different mountain).
In total I might have taken magic mushrooms maybe 10 times. Now I don't really feel the need to anymore, but I think it could be interesting to try some time in the future with my girlfriend.
Most of my friends don't use psychedelics in any way anymore. Perhaps in part because many friends are starting families now and it's hard to find the time when having a girlfriend and/or children, etc...
That is a very different claim than:
> Combining psychedelics with meditation opens the very real risk of conditioning one's meditation practice to require psychedelics to have any efficacy.
... which is what the discussion started with.
I'm not going to argue that some people are not helped and I think there is a lot of interesting research.
But there seems to be a lot of people who think there must be some deeper meaning when you use psychedelics so they sit down and try and think about negative things to work them through, get stressed out and starting to spiral in a negative thought loop that is not really based in reality (like "my friends do not really like me, I suck").
Then they have a horrible trip and really did not learn from it because, your brain is often pretty stupid on psychedelics, but frame it as a positive experience on forums. It would be like people not handling alcohol saying "Yeah, sure I really went crazy and fought my dad, destroyed my car and ended up crying in a bush, but I really learned something about myself". No, the drugs made your brain think in a shitty way.
Maybe I'm just cynical but I'd say don't try to get deep with psychedelics until you are really used to them. Have fun and do the "abusing party drugs" part or watch a funny movie instead.
You don’t need to “really get used” to psychedelics by abusing them at parties in order to use them effectively. You just need to learn proper technique. You won’t learn that at parties or funny movies.
Steps for productive psychedelic sessions:
Choose a calm, quiet, pleasant environment.
Have someone you absolutely trust present. No other distractions. Fewer people the better, ideally only one other.
Lie down. If psilocybin makes you nauseous, you may want to purge if you can’t handle it. Nausea will die down as the trip builds up.
Close your eyes. Wear a sleep mask if you want.
Listen to calming, ambient music or calming white noise, headphones are best.
Dive in. I repeat, dive in. Focus should be inside not outside.
After the trip, write everything down.
That is just elitist talk about thinking there is a correct way to use those drugs. "Abusing drugs" while listening to calm music is not better than "abusing drugs" while watching a funny movie. There is no higher purpose and there is so much myth around these drugs that people say to make themselves feel good.
The best way to ensure a good trip is to be comfortable yes but to be alone with your thoughts listening to some calming music that they usually not listen to is not comfortable for a lot of people. That is how people end up thinking they must think about rough stuff, end up in negative thought loops and as they are not used to the drug it scares them and they cannot easily get out.
If they instead focus on just enjoying the serotonin and fun visuals while doing something that you almost certainly know you will love it will usually work out better. That could be watching a movie, listening to music they love, chat about fun memories, watch a tv-show that they have seen tons of time before but always gives them comfort.
If they then become uncomfortable their brain will be back on topic quickly because they are doing something that love. Meditation and shit like that can come later when they know how a trip is, know it will end, know how it can feel in their body and mind.
For most people that is NOT being alone with their own thoughts while listening to music they usually do not listen to. If you usually meditate and listen to ambient music, go a head and try it. If you never do that then do something you are comfortable with, if you love watching old episodes of The Office you will love it even more and be even happier if tripping. You will not have a bad trip and if you start to feel uneasy you will snap out of it easily.
Because your state of mind is where you want it to be and you are where you are comfortable, watching a for example a tv-show.
As marmadukester39 says, research - and there has been tons of it since the 50s, John Lilly was the pioneer - disagrees with you.
Not only is your advice based on assumptions that do not hold ("it will usually work out better", "enjoying the serotonin", "brain will be back on topic") but it's actively dangerous since it introduces non-deterministic outside inputs that experienced psychonauts _all agree_ can be devastatingly hard to deal with.
Doing psychedelics at a party is playing russian roulette with your sanity, fullstop.
I urge you to read John Lilly's autobiography "The Scientist" to see how a scientific framework for psychedelic research can be created from scratch and lead to useful experiments. You also get to learn about productive models to apply when doing this sort of work.
Except that is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that you should be in a set and setting that you are really comfortable with. I.e. a lot of people love watching sitcoms for example and feel very comfortable doing that. Their mind will react very predictable because the set and setting is insanely familiar. It will guide your mind through a very predictable trip.
Trying to meditate when you are not used to it when doing psychedelics for the first time? That is a non-predictable setting and then when people start worry because they feel bad they are also thinking about why their parents never really hugged them and start spiraling.
I would say bad trips are pretty rare in practice but I would say almost all I have noticed among people or people have written about have been:
Chaotic outside influence like people behaving badly, them being in an unfamiliar environment or becoming scared because they feel ill.
or
People in perfectly fine settings sitting down and start spiraling because they suddenly think they are not doing well in life, are not liked or whatever. That usually starts by them seeking depth or thinking about things to get more out of a trip. Which is perfectly fine but it is not the best way to avoid a bad trip.
>Doing psychedelics at a party is playing russian roulette with your sanity, fullstop.
I did not say that you should do psychedelics at a party even if I think that roughly the same case of bad trips as trying to "be deep" when tripping.
I do agree that you shouldn’t ascribe too much weight to certain things, but personally I’d say this is applicable more to specific spiritual conclusions, “seeing god,” etc. No, you didn’t see god, you were taking a hallucinogen and were high as balls.