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Comment by vanderZwan | Hacker News Reader

> Combining psychedelics with meditation opens the very real risk of conditioning one's meditation practice to require psychedelics to have any efficacy.

Or it may aid in processing traumas that were blockades to meditation, with a net result of it being easier to do meditation practice afterwards even without psychedelics. It's all speculation until further research is done into how all this works exactly, no?

But FWIW, this research seems to suggest one does not need to keep using psilocybin to have its long-lasting beneficial effects:

> Compared with placebo, psilocybin enhanced post-intervention mindfulness and produced larger positive changes in psychosocial functioning at a 4-month follow-up, which were corroborated by external ratings, and associated with magnitude of acute self-dissolution experience

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Right. If you're trying to metaphorically reach the peak of a mountain, psychedelics are like a helicopter that lets you fly around, find the path and even reach the top.

It's possible that you'll grow to rely on the helicopter to climb the mountain, but hopefully what you take away from it is that there is in fact a path (or accept that there's not - and you might has well climb a different mountain).

if you really make it to the top of the mountain and sort out your trauma then you would probably have less of a need to go to the top again

Meditation can be like dieting+exercise in a sense.

There are people that let themselves go: eat unhealthy and gain weight, exercise too little and lose muscle and cardio, etc. Then when one day they look in the mirror, realize what they've become, and it motivates them to eat healthy for a period of time, hit the gym etc.

In other words, they wait until they have an issue then solve it. They are re-active, not pro-active.

Alternatively, you can maintain your physical health by always being mindful of what you eat and making sure to get adequate exercise, etc.

Meditation is the same deal: don't wait until the day you have serious trauma to deal with in order to start a practice of mindfulness. Do not be reactive about it. Like physical health, it is far better to Maintain and be Proactive than to let it go then React.

So if you reach the top of the mountain: do you just roll back down to the bottom and then have to start all over again? Or do you actively maintain your position?

This is something I find profound about psilocybin in my own experience. The kinds of revelations you might have, the conclusions you come to, the discoveries - they're all relevant when you're back to a regular state of mind.

If it helps you find ways to meditate, or simply discover that you can meditate, or that the benefits of meditating matter to you, that could help your practice immensely.

I'm not saying it's for everyone (it's definitely not), but if you can find ways to leverage it I really believe it can be a helpful tool for growth, healing, and what the hell, just having fun.

The kinds of revelations you might have, the conclusions you come to, the discoveries - they're all relevant when you're back to a regular state of mind.

I don't share this experience. Some experiences stick but for me overall after a week or so a lot of the "revelations" seem pretty crackpotty.

Can relate to this, when I was younger this was the same for me (and not limited to psilocybin).

However the older I get, the more useful the 'revelations' (I rather call them insights) become. As in: I can actually use them to do things better in daily life.

Can someone enlighten me here? What possible 'revelations' can you have from a psychedelic that you wouldn't get from a sober state of mind?

It’s not worth pointing out anecdotal instances of these occurrences since it’s so personalized and dependent on ones own experiences and state of mind.

What it offers, though — in the only way I know how to describe — is an alternative perspective. It’s like stepping outside of your usual self and evaluating things from an almost objective and completely different point of view. It’s this perspective that allows for revelations that otherwise wouldn’t happen in a sober state. This is a result of physiology and the chemical interactions in the brain due to ingestion of the substance.

It’s quite an amazing experience. Sometimes it can be scary, or odd or just funny. But in my experience, it has led to some very profound experiences and insights.

I haven't tried any of the "real" psychedelics, but I can tell you my experience of insights I gained from high doses of pot, with almost no tolerance as there are many months to years between occasions.

It made me pay attention to different things than I would normally pay attention to - things I arguably should have paid more attention to. Specifically social cues. I would repeat peoples words in my head over and over. I would go over written words and try to imagine the tone of voice very carefully.

It also made me change my behavior (temporarily), partly as a result of the different way I was paying attention. I got to see how people responded to that changed behavior (they responded very positively).

Yeah, what's been said already is pretty much on point with my experience. I think I mostly just recognize weird or bad behaviours of mine once I can analyze myself with significantly less ego.

It's absolutely possible while sober, but it can be quite effortless and accidental on a trip. I'm also not so sure all people have these experiences while sober, even if they could - it takes work. Psychedelics can be good at breaking down mental patterns and guards, exposing the things you typically miss or avoid.

> Or it may aid in processing traumas that were blockades to meditation,

Or it may aid in giving one even more trauma. The outcome differs from person to person, I'm only offering my anecdotes based on my experience and people I know who dabble in psychedelics and meditation. The risk can be distilled to the simple idea of a crutch. Of course, not everyone will take it as a crutch.

> But FWIW, this research seems to suggest one does not need to keep using psilocybin to have its long-lasting beneficial effects:

And I relate this risk precisely because, in my opinion, most or many people will not deploy the same discipline in using psychedelics as conducted in the study or even use the psychedelics for the same purposes as the study. Once faced with the boredom of the non-psychedelic state of mind, people get agitated. But it's precisely facing this boredom and this agitation which will help them grow -- boredom and agitation are as much apart of reality and the human experience as is excitement and ecstasy.

Are you sure you're not confusing people abusing party drugs with people meditating while under psychedelics?

Take a look at the message board shroomery.org to see a large group's (more than n=39) attitude toward meditation and psychedelics. Whether at a party or on the cushion, people are chasing after experiences, which don't last or are as beneficial as developing qualities.

Have you heard of the concept of selection bias? If someone would do a meditative retreat combined with the influence of psilocybin, receive the benefits from that, and never feel the need to use psilocybin again you will not find them on shroomery.org. The only people you will find there are people with a sustained interest in doing psychedelic drugs. That's a bit of a circular argument then.

There is no reason to believe that such a community of people is representative of the general population or the effects that psychedelics would have on them when combined with meditation and the guidance of one or more therapists.

You don't have to be patronizing. Selection bias is besides the point. My writing a common risk is to warn people from going towards the extreme of becoming psychedelic enthusiasts (abusers would be more apt). Your "general population" who are given psychedelics and meditation runs the risk of falling into that extreme (it is opening pandora's box), and their therapist isn't going to be there to babysit them all the time, this much is evident from prescription drug abuse.

I'm not an expert on drugs, but comparing psychedelics to any kind of prescription seems... I dunno, like not a very good comparison.

Are there any psychedelics that are openly prescribed the way other "prescription drugs" are? I mean just saying "Abuse of prescription drugs" is such an ambiguous thing. If you're referring to opioids, etc that have an extreme physically addictive effect, that's not at all like how psychedelics work.

Prescription drugs were being compared in context of being dispensed under guidance of a licensed professional. The licensed professional isn't always going to be around to make sure the patient doesn't start down the path of substance abuse, and such abuse potentials are not limited to drugs that are by and by chemically addictive.

What do you base your views on? Reading reports on a forum? You're point seems valid enough, but I get the feeling there's a lot of nuance your comments are paving over. For one, any research I ever did on them seem to indicate they're very "anti-party" and those taking them did so for very specific self-improvement reasons.

It's hard to abuse psilocybin bc there is a limitation to the frequency that a dose will be effective. If you take it two days in a row, there will be little to no effect on the second day. The longer you wait, the more effect it can have - leading even enthusiasts to wait.

In addition to rapid tolerance buildup (which in a dopaminergic drug would be a danger of rapid progression to overdose), in my experience psilocybin and other psychedelic tryptamines have an inherent moderating effect in many people. I don't really feel like having psychedelic experiences often; it's just not a useful state of being most of the time, and it's not so neurochemically rewarding and physically comfortable that it's highly likely for addiction to develop. It's far less likely to become addicted to psilocybin than THC, alcohol, or caffeine.

I do agree that always combining meditation with any substance could lead to a dependence on that substance to experience the deepest meditative states. However, used once in a while (which is the most I really want psychedelics anyway), I can agree with the findings in this paper, the experience sticks with you and can be remembered.

pazimzadeh's analogy is spot on.

> Right. If you're trying to metaphorically reach the peak of a mountain, psychedelics are like a helicopter that lets you fly around, find the path and even reach the top.

> It's possible that you'll grow to rely on the helicopter to climb the mountain, but hopefully what you take away from it is that there is in fact a path (or accept that there's not - and you might has well climb a different mountain).

I'd just like to add, back when I was a bit younger (perhaps 23 years old or so), I used to take magic mushrooms with my friends once every four months or so. It was not something I (and I imagine my friends) took lightly. I made sure there weren't any big things happening that weekend, no stress, etc... In that way it wasn't even very feasible to take these shrooms more often, often things like work would get in the way.

In total I might have taken magic mushrooms maybe 10 times. Now I don't really feel the need to anymore, but I think it could be interesting to try some time in the future with my girlfriend.

Most of my friends don't use psychedelics in any way anymore. Perhaps in part because many friends are starting families now and it's hard to find the time when having a girlfriend and/or children, etc...

> My writing a common risk is to warn people from going towards the extreme of becoming psychedelic enthusiasts (abusers would be more apt).

That is a very different claim than:

> Combining psychedelics with meditation opens the very real risk of conditioning one's meditation practice to require psychedelics to have any efficacy.

... which is what the discussion started with.

The two premises are interdependent.

There is a lot of what I feel is rose colored glasses when it comes to psychedelics and that people think they must have had some breakthrough or being able to think differently is just good for them.

I'm not going to argue that some people are not helped and I think there is a lot of interesting research.

But there seems to be a lot of people who think there must be some deeper meaning when you use psychedelics so they sit down and try and think about negative things to work them through, get stressed out and starting to spiral in a negative thought loop that is not really based in reality (like "my friends do not really like me, I suck").

Then they have a horrible trip and really did not learn from it because, your brain is often pretty stupid on psychedelics, but frame it as a positive experience on forums. It would be like people not handling alcohol saying "Yeah, sure I really went crazy and fought my dad, destroyed my car and ended up crying in a bush, but I really learned something about myself". No, the drugs made your brain think in a shitty way.

Maybe I'm just cynical but I'd say don't try to get deep with psychedelics until you are really used to them. Have fun and do the "abusing party drugs" part or watch a funny movie instead.

Terrible advice on every possible level.

You don’t need to “really get used” to psychedelics by abusing them at parties in order to use them effectively. You just need to learn proper technique. You won’t learn that at parties or funny movies.

Steps for productive psychedelic sessions:

Choose a calm, quiet, pleasant environment.

Have someone you absolutely trust present. No other distractions. Fewer people the better, ideally only one other.

Lie down. If psilocybin makes you nauseous, you may want to purge if you can’t handle it. Nausea will die down as the trip builds up.

Close your eyes. Wear a sleep mask if you want.

Listen to calming, ambient music or calming white noise, headphones are best.

Dive in. I repeat, dive in. Focus should be inside not outside.

After the trip, write everything down.

"You won't learn"? Learn what?

That is just elitist talk about thinking there is a correct way to use those drugs. "Abusing drugs" while listening to calm music is not better than "abusing drugs" while watching a funny movie. There is no higher purpose and there is so much myth around these drugs that people say to make themselves feel good.

The best way to ensure a good trip is to be comfortable yes but to be alone with your thoughts listening to some calming music that they usually not listen to is not comfortable for a lot of people. That is how people end up thinking they must think about rough stuff, end up in negative thought loops and as they are not used to the drug it scares them and they cannot easily get out.

If they instead focus on just enjoying the serotonin and fun visuals while doing something that you almost certainly know you will love it will usually work out better. That could be watching a movie, listening to music they love, chat about fun memories, watch a tv-show that they have seen tons of time before but always gives them comfort.

If they then become uncomfortable their brain will be back on topic quickly because they are doing something that love. Meditation and shit like that can come later when they know how a trip is, know it will end, know how it can feel in their body and mind.

All the research on set and setting disagrees with you.

No, listen to what I am saying. I'm saying that the person should be in a place and state of mind where they are as safe and comfortable as possible.

For most people that is NOT being alone with their own thoughts while listening to music they usually do not listen to. If you usually meditate and listen to ambient music, go a head and try it. If you never do that then do something you are comfortable with, if you love watching old episodes of The Office you will love it even more and be even happier if tripping. You will not have a bad trip and if you start to feel uneasy you will snap out of it easily.

Because your state of mind is where you want it to be and you are where you are comfortable, watching a for example a tv-show.

Again, I have to caution everyone to ignore your advice. It is really really bad. Plenty of trainwrecks have started in exactly the way you recommend beginners do things.

As marmadukester39 says, research - and there has been tons of it since the 50s, John Lilly was the pioneer - disagrees with you.

Not only is your advice based on assumptions that do not hold ("it will usually work out better", "enjoying the serotonin", "brain will be back on topic") but it's actively dangerous since it introduces non-deterministic outside inputs that experienced psychonauts _all agree_ can be devastatingly hard to deal with.

Doing psychedelics at a party is playing russian roulette with your sanity, fullstop.

I urge you to read John Lilly's autobiography "The Scientist" to see how a scientific framework for psychedelic research can be created from scratch and lead to useful experiments. You also get to learn about productive models to apply when doing this sort of work.

>Not only is your advice based on assumptions that do not hold ("it will usually work out better", "enjoying the serotonin", "brain will be back on topic") but it's actively dangerous since it introduces non-deterministic outside inputs that experienced psychonauts _all agree_ can be devastatingly hard to deal with.

Except that is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that you should be in a set and setting that you are really comfortable with. I.e. a lot of people love watching sitcoms for example and feel very comfortable doing that. Their mind will react very predictable because the set and setting is insanely familiar. It will guide your mind through a very predictable trip.

Trying to meditate when you are not used to it when doing psychedelics for the first time? That is a non-predictable setting and then when people start worry because they feel bad they are also thinking about why their parents never really hugged them and start spiraling.

I would say bad trips are pretty rare in practice but I would say almost all I have noticed among people or people have written about have been:

Chaotic outside influence like people behaving badly, them being in an unfamiliar environment or becoming scared because they feel ill.

People in perfectly fine settings sitting down and start spiraling because they suddenly think they are not doing well in life, are not liked or whatever. That usually starts by them seeking depth or thinking about things to get more out of a trip. Which is perfectly fine but it is not the best way to avoid a bad trip.

>Doing psychedelics at a party is playing russian roulette with your sanity, fullstop.

I did not say that you should do psychedelics at a party even if I think that roughly the same case of bad trips as trying to "be deep" when tripping.

This is not true, in my experience. The best way I can describe shrooms is “they show you what you need to see at that moment in your life,” and sometimes the “bad trip” is exactly what the doctor ordered. I have literally only ever seen “bad trips” be useful and transformative for people.

I do agree that you shouldn’t ascribe too much weight to certain things, but personally I’d say this is applicable more to specific spiritual conclusions, “seeing god,” etc. No, you didn’t see god, you were taking a hallucinogen and were high as balls.

> Once faced with the boredom of the non-psychedelic state of mind, people get agitated.

The overwhelming majority of anecdotal stories I've read suggest the exact opposite, in that people perceive a lasting (for some time at least) sense of peace, not agitation.

Or perhaps by agitation you were referring to desire to re-experience the psychedelic experience rather than remaining content with peacefulness. I'd say this is quite common, and I can appreciate that a disciplined meditation practice is a fine idea, but I've yet to see any particularly compelling reason to believe a disciplined meditation practice is the only answer.

My guess at it is that for most (but not necessarily all) people:

(Disciplined psychedelic practice + Disciplined meditation practice) >

(Disciplined psychedelic practice + decent meditation practice) >

Disciplined meditation practice >

Disciplined psychedelic practice >

Undisciplined psychedelic or meditation practice

But this is just a guess. I feel quite certain no one actually knows the proper answer to the question, but there's certainly no shortage of people who think they do.....which is kind of at the heart of what this whole business is all about, as far as I can tell.

One thing that annoys me about psychadelic discussion is how dismissive people are.

Its predictable:

Have a bad experience?

“Whaat no way dude, you must have taken something else or you were predisposed to schizophrenia you should have predicted that and checked your family history and genetics first! This experience is totally invalid to us and anyone considering using our favorite psychadelic”

Develop schizophrenia?

“[abbreviated version of the same response]”

Have an interesting idea?

“Just an anecdote! More research necessary”

This is totally true, not sure why it's downvoted. Psychedelic enthusiasts will often say "oh well that person who had a bad experience was predisposed and shouldn't have taken it." When there was literally no way of telling that the person was predisposed until they took the drug. You can be a fairly stable person but be predisposed to psychosis when you take psychedelic, but have no idea that's the case until you take the psychedelics. Maybe you family history is clear because nobody experimented with psychedelics and thus never triggered that predisposition, or maybe you just don't learn about every instance of psychosis in your family tree. If you try to bring this up to psychedelic enthusiasts they get defensive even though they're obviously in the wrong.

Approximately what percent of the average population is predisposed to psychosis?

All breakthrough psychedelic experiences are serious psychotic events. Experienced psychonauts not only understand that psychosis can happen to anyone - regardless of history - but know how valuable it can be.

Psychosis valuable? The difference between clinical psychosis and a psychedelic breakthrough experience is that the latter is integrated. The Psychonaut finds a way to make it part of his psyche and thus neutralize the dissonance.

Those who talk about predisposition really have no clue regarding proper psychedelic use. Psychosis is the whole point. But, taking place inside a framework that allows for integration. There is a reason shamans have rituals.

Great points, it's so tricky to communicate though.

Very interesting idea about the notionally-psychotic event/state being part of the experience, and integration being part of the model of a healthy version.

But if that's true, replace "psychosis" in the preceding arguments about the dangers with "failure to integrate the experience".

Same danger, different name.

It still needs to be acknowledged, not brushed away. Frameworks and rituals do not remove this danger. They may alter the risks, but it still occurs within them.

What do you think happens when you dream? Would you believe prior art if it told you that your brain secretes DMT? Why do you think that occurs?

> Or it may aid in processing traumas that were blockades to meditation, with a net result of it being easier to do meditation practice afterwards even without psychedelics. It's all speculation until further research is done into how all this works exactly, no?

Undoubtedly true, but there are several therapeutic approaches to trauma which are much better understood. We should do more research into psilocybin but it seems to me like the better understood therapies should be tried first.

We understand psylocibin a lot better than many think, a lot of three knowledge has just been ignored for a long time. In the fifties they achieved great results in the treatment of addiction that are just starting to be rediscovered now.

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