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Comment by Vysero | Hacker News Reader

I would love to be able to buy an electric car here in Montana (US) but how would I charge it? Either way I couldn't afford it. Even at a conservative estimate of 20k that's still too much considering I can go out and buy a used car that gets 20mpg for 5k and keep it for the next 100k miles.

I realize this is a bit off topic but I get so bitter when I heard about other countries converting to electric. I just wish someone would make and sell a reliable electric car in the states for around 10-15k and provide me with enough utility stations to make it practical to use.

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May I ask why you wouldn't be able to charge it at home? It is my understanding that most people simply charge their electric cars overnight, much like their phones.

My apartment building does not have, and by my best guess, will never have car chargers in its parking garage.

And I'm lucky enough to have a parking garage. At least ~70% of the people living in my area park on the street, where there are... Also no chargers.

Have you considered asking them if they would install one? They aren't that expensive, only about $1000 bucks, and I think there are some federal subsidies.

With a service like Chargepoint, there is no cost to the landlord at all. They have a brochure you can print out on their website.

Failing that you can park near a regular 120v outlet and use level 1 charging, which fills up most cars in about 8 hours.

> a regular 120v outlet and use level 1 charging, which fills up most cars in about 8 hours

A regular 120V outlet is 15A at best (usually 12A). That's barely enough to charge a PHEV in 8h, let alone a BEV. Practical example [0]:

> connected to a 240V outlet, the onboard 7.7kW charger should take the battery from 0-100% SoC in 2 hours 25 min. (A 120V charge will take a bit longer at just over 16.5 hours.)

[0] https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/10/on-the-road-with-audis-...

I'd clarify that regular outlet is _usually_ 15A. 12A is what car will be drawing as this is continuous load (should be 80%, code requirements). Quite often breaker behind that 120V outlet is 20A one.

The federal tax credit ended in tax year 2018. I installed two Open EVSE in my garage, and ran a 100 amp sub-panel. I did all the work myself and was able to claim about $300 of the tax credit; can't claim own labor so it was all materials. Even then, the credit was capped at $1k.

The EVSE run between $500 - $1000. Add in the cost of a residential electrician, and I'm estimating $3k total. If it's commercial, then double that. If you have to trench and do concrete work, double it again. Get into a ROW with other utilities, even worse. It gets expensive really fast.

The level 1 charger for my 24 kW*H Leaf says 24 hours for a full charge. Forget about it for a Tesla.

Perhaps I am in the minority but my home is an apartment complex so I park in the parking lot. There are no chargers in the parking lot.

Either way (I could be wrong) I don't think you can just plug it into a 120V outlet to get a charge.

No thats the biggest problem for most buyers living in apartment buildings in urban areas. It's still quite rare to find chargers in underground parking lots.

That's what prevented me from buying one as well. I didn't want to have to go wait in line at one of the few public chargers in my city.

You can but with a standard 120V (12/15A) outlet you'd spend days charging an EV with a large battery. Anything that takes more than 8-10 hours is not really a feasible option. A 240V outlet can be 32A which would be a lot more reasonable in terms of charging time.

it adds about 5 miles per hour for model 3. So after charging overnight it would be at least 50 miles of range added. And this is enough for many.

Which is still very slow, as I said above. The fact that you can get a tenth of the battery charge after a full night is not fast by any measure. Consider that our driving habits have been formed around getting hundreds of Km/mi worth of range in minutes. And if a gas pump would only fill 6 liters at a time nobody in the world would say “well it’s still more than most people need”.

The conversation completely changes as you're not going to a gas station to fill up, you're parking your car at home or plugging it in while you shop. You have fast charging on the highway which, at least for the more powerful ones, can fill you up to 80% in 40 minutes.

I think that there will be a shift in the provided capabilities of places like apartments in the near-ish future that will address this problem. More people will own electric cars, and either charge them at parking garages at work, and their homes/apartments will be retro-fitted. Probably won't be free, but the removed gas cost should well offset it on an individual level.

You can top up using a 120v wall outlet. People using Tesla cars report around 40-50 km for an 8 hour charge.

I use my 120v outlet in my garage and it keeps the battery charged up enough - granted I'm not maxing out the range every day either. Takes about 13 hours to charge from half way.

Interesting, I didn't know that. WELL perhaps I just need to search for a lot with a 120V outlet and browse for a used electric car. If I can find a lot which I can walk to in a relatively short amount of time from my home, I would be alright with that.

And you're right with not maxing out the range daily - it's bad for the battery. Something like 30/40% to 70/80% SoC range is the best

> I don't think you can just plug it into a 120V outlet to get a charge.

A 120V/15A outlet will deliver 1.8 kW. Assuming "overnight" means 12 hours, you can charge ~21 kWh, about 80 miles in a Model 3. Probably enough to keep it topped off after your daily commute/driving. (Edit: apparently 15A means 12A, so a bit less)

Some employers also offer EV charging spots.

1 The US grid is "in need of improvement" see California

2 Not everyone lives in a house with of street parking

As this is in the context of Montana,

1. not every part of the U.S. grid is in dire need of improvement, most homes have access to 240v most of the time. (with the exception of the 1 state that has assigned fire damages to their utility. And, most vehicles are charged at night, outside of peak demand. (also, the Tesla wall was a technology that further decreased demand on the grid)

2. Most of Montana is going to have off street parking, be it a barn or garage (and with at least 120v) mostly by the necessity that sub zero temperatures ~2 months of the year freezing anti-freeze, batteries -- and that you can't use an ice scraper to scrape off feet of snow.

"most" of the time - I think you don't realise how bad this is compared to say the UK or France or Germany

Sorry, for states other than California, this year, that should say all of the the time; And part of why every house is wired for 240 is because our dryers and hvacs all use 240.

True but the equivalent of that else where is the 415 V cooker circuit.

All the mains sockets in uk houses are 240v - this is whey you never see an electric kettle in US homes

We're really conflating apples and oranges here as the voltage is only half the equation;

By code, US 2 phase (120x2 == 240) is going to be wired with lower gauge wire to provide more overall electricity. Typically, the 240v is going to be capable of providing 600 total amps (though there are cases where 400amp is served); with a typical breaker at 30 or 40 amps. compared to a triple 415 providing 8 or 15amps.

No offense, but what hypothetical car are you buying for $5K that will last another 100K miles?

You can get used Nissan Leaf's in the price-range you're wanting. In Spokane tho I guess...

https://www.cars.com/for-sale/searchresults.action/?dealerTy...

Or used Prius's in Missoula:

https://www.missoulanissan.com/VehicleSearchResults?search=p...

edit: I am genuinely curious about the $5K car good for 100K miles.

I bought a 2007 Rav4 for around $5k in 2017. Had 130k miles on it. Now 2 years later it's at around 210k and still no serious issues. I doubt it's gonna have much trouble going another 20k. I would imagine any Toyota or Honda would be similar, and probably lots of other cars too.

Pretty much any old POS with 100k on it will last to 200k if you change the fluids on some semblance of a schedule. Somewhere north of 200k is where most automatic transmissions wear out.

Toyta Hilux :-)

All sorts of post 2000 cars from reliable brands. Cars last well into 200k miles these days. I drive a 2001 Outback with 198k miles on it. Purchased 5 years ago for ~$3700 and besides brake pads and oil haven't spent any money on it.

This is the biggest barrier to electric IMO. I'm planning on getting a Tesla but it makes absolutely no economic sense.

I paid $11k for my used 2015 leaf about 2 years ago. I charge it every other day (90 mile range) by plugging it in at work or at home into a DC charger that’s connected to my dryer outlet.

For these cars they work great but you have to accept that they usually have to be charged every other day.

I feel similarly to you, I really want to switch to an electric car, but when I really look at it for me, the infrastructure is just not there yet. I am hoping in 2-3 years it will be much improved, since so many more electric cars are coming out.

> I realize this is a bit off topic but I get so bitter when I heard about other countries converting to electric.

Which country is converting to electric?

China?

"China Beats U.S. 8-1 When It Comes to Charging Electric Cars"

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-10-15/china-ele...

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