Merkel wants Germany to have 1m electric car charging points by 2030 | Hacker News Reader

Merkel wants Germany to have 1m electric car charging points by 2030

reuters.com

34 pointsjonbaer56 comments

Note that she made a similar promise before which she didn't end up keeping: https://www.greenoptimistic.com/angela-merkel-electric-cars-...

Despite her promise, we have 196 thousand electric cars in Germany now according to Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_use_by_country

In EU direct government support for industry (state aid) is illegal AF, but what if we coordinate "environmental" goals with one of the biggest privately owned corporations product releases? Suddenly paying VW for infrastructure from national/regional budget sounds totally legit.

I actually don't care. It's been a while since I saw a Polonez (that factory now makes VWs) so what's good for VW is also good for plenty of other countries where they produce cars and the end result will be a net positive for the environment so how it gets done is irrelevant to me. I agree that it is underground support for industry but what with the state already a big shareholder it is more of an internal affair.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-lower-saxony/l...

On the same note; ever wondered why Fiat or Citroen never won any bids to supply the German Police or the army?

But how are they going to decide which type of charging point they'll be? Maybe what's needed is some kind of standard charging point which has options for future enhancement.

And then you have to convince the electric car manufacturers to use it instead of their own proprietary one.

My city has recently installed a load of EV chargers (in the city center there is on average one per sq km) and they all have Type 2, CCS/SAE and CHAdeMO connectors - so any EV can use then.

Does Telsla work with those?

Not out-of-the-box, but Tesla will sell you a dongle which converts to their proprietary connector.

Thats easy, the one VW ships with.

An attempt to capture the next few years of charging infrastructure: https://twitter.com/sampenrose/status/1152625267589840896

I hope they're super charging points otherwise I'm not sure waiting hours for your car to charge is realistic?

I'm not up to date with e mobility.

What's the average distance you can travel today with a electric car?

How fast can they be recharged?

Tesla Model 3 Long Range can do >500km on a full charge and can be charged in ~30 minutes to full in a supercharger. You'd only want to do that on a long road trip though since very fast charging could decrease battery life ... and it also tends to be more expensive. For most commute situations much slower charge rates are fine. Around where I live you can find 6 or 8KW chargers (free). On those charging this Tesla to full would be more like 10-12 hours. For most commuters just being able to charge while shopping e.g. in one of those (for an hour or so) can do the trick.

When the battery reaches end of life is it replaceable? Or is the car dead?

It is replaceable. Not sure on cost. The first Model S's are just beginning to come out of the 8 year warranty period.

End of life for battery in model 3 is looking at 250-300k miles, maybe more.

Well, not to full in 30 minutes. But 80%, for sure. 80 to 100% would probably be 30 minutes in itself.

500km@100% with 30min to 80% sounds okay.

My Model S does about 500km in summer.

I typically charge 20-80% or so in 30-45 minutes on long road trips.

For standard commuting it just charges overnight at home.

People don't understand yet why you don't need as many public charging points as gas stations. People who buy EVs charge at home. Public charging ports are only used by people who don't live there.

Edit: Yes people who don't have driveways still need them. Overall, not as much infrastructure as we needed with gas pumps. Everyone with gas cars needed public gas pumps, but only a subset of EVs need public charging stations.

People who own homes with driveways or garages often discount the hurdle of renters and street parkers who often must rely solely on public chargers (or not buy an EV).

There are also chargers at many employers. Often free for employees. I’m not saying you’re wrong about it being a hurdle but often there are solutions.

It becomes another chapter in the chicken and egg game that has played out in the installation of chargers up to now.

At some point, renters will see charging stations as a necessary box to tick when seeking a place to live much as per owners do now.

In Amsterdam it goes the other way over time: special parking spots are reserved for EVs and come with charging ports. These are illegal to park a regular car in even if there are plenty of those empty and no spot to park an ICE car is available.

Which is generally supportive of Merkel's plan to increase public charging and goes against the "let them charge at home instead of using public chargers" sentiment.

> People who buy EVs charge at home.

What if they don't have a garage or driveway?

How do you charge at home when your only parking space is the street?

Not everyone is a millionaire with their own private parking space and charging point.

I don't understand how people think this works...

You charge at work or at a supercharger. Works great.

What if you don't drive to work?

Not everyone lives like you do.

Again, you're missing the point. On purpose, I think.

Everyone doesn't live the same way. That is true. That's not the point. The point is that all gasoline-powered cars must refuel at a public pump. Some EVs will charge at home. Therefore, NOT ALL EVs require a public charging station. Your argument proves my point.

The article was 'we need to create lots of chargers' the comment was 'they aren't needed because if you're a millionaire with a driveway who drives to a tech employer with a private space with a charger every day you're fine'. That's what I'm saying isn't helpful for most people. Most people park on the street and take public transport to work and have no opportunity to charge. So we need the chargers. I'm sure it's fine for you - it's not for most people.

It depends on where these chargers are located. Areas where people own cars and park those cars on the street, that's where they're needed. They aren't needed in suburbs where people can plug them into their own homes. They're also not needed in areas where people don't own cars.

I guess I inadvertently started a culture war where people without cars and driveways are really touchy and go on attack. Sorry about that.

I do have a car and a driveway but I know others aren't as fortunate as myself and they need these chargers.

Yes more public chargers will be great to have.

But as an apartment dweller with a Tesla and no charger, I can tell you that solutions can be found in some cases.

I think it's less of a culture war, and more just that people who don't know about the convenience of solutions like superchargers and free at-work charging get triggered when someone suggests that everyone get EVs, because they think apartment dwellers are being left out.

Setting aside those who can't even buy cars, and those who have very limited income or job options, some apartment dwellers can make it work pretty easily.

Sadly some people who could purchase EVs needlessly delay their EV purchases because they think they don't have charging solutions. I know; I was one of those people.

It's just a matter of education. Once people learn about the options available (again, at-work charging and superchargers for example), this should become less contentious.

But while I think that many people (not everyone) do have some solutions available, I would agree that we need to continue adding more public chargers.

>the comment was 'they aren't needed because if you're a millionaire with a driveway who drives to a tech employer with a private space with a charger every day you're fine'.

That wasn't the comment at all. That's a wild, even ludicrous, misquote and misreading.

I'm not rich. And I don't have a driveway. And my employer does not have a private space for anyone. And I don't have to charge every day.

I don't know how you got any of those things from my comment.

There are options for EV charging. People don't have to charge at home, should be the takeaway.

Yes we need more chargers; we agree on that it seems. The number of EVs is growing and the number of chargers needs to continue increasing to match that growth. It's great that some governments are recognizing that so they can facilitate any way they can.

"Or at a supercharger."

I'm not a multimillionaire and I live in a house. I also have been to Europe and I see people there also have houses with driveways. So, what's the problem?

I didn't say public charging ports weren't needed. I said not as many charging ports are needed as gasoline pumps.

Most homes in most countries in Europe do not have driveways.

Cities can always install more on street charging points.

Also supermarkets, restaurants, workplaces can offer them...there's no reason not having more charging points than gas stations, as electricity is everywhere.

You are missing the point. The OP is not saying that everyone has a charging at home, but much more people charge electric cars at home then they would with gas cars. Also you don’t need to be a millionaire to have a garage. Majority of people is small towns and suburbs have a house with a garage

I thank them in advance for not keeping a private car.

A lot of people in Europe live in big apartment buildings ... they may park in the street... how would they "charge at home"?

Everyone? Does everyone in Europe live in apartment buildings?

Did you mis-read the comment? They said 'a lot of people', you're asking about 'everyone.'

Exactly. Thank you for making my point. Everyone driving an ICE vehicle must refuel at a public pump. Not everyone driving an EV needs to refuel at a public charging port. Therefore, fewer public charging ports are needed than gasoline pumps.

Not everyone, but thats how trends were in recent decades: people moving to large urban centers raising land prices in those and areas around making anything but apartment blocks unfeasible economically.

In some places even single-house areas are being invaded by real-estate developers building multi-floor apartment buildings roght next to single-family houses.

Not everyone, but most Germans actually do live in apartment buildings [0].

[0] https://www.deutschland.de/en/topic/life/lifestyle-cuisine/h...

No, obviously not. However, a lot of houses also wouldn’t have driveways. I live in a house whose front door opens directly onto the street; residents can get a parking permit for the on-street parking (though this is first come first served).

Here in Ireland (one of the less dense European countries), rural housing would generally have driveways, as would most older suburban housing. Urban housing would never have driveways, and a lot of (I’d guess most) recent suburban stuff doesn’t either. Garages are also not particularly common.

The apartments don't provide parking spots?

Parking lots or garages typically don’t have electric car chargers today.

Sometimes a brand new garage here in the USA might have 2 designated BEV charging spots. My garage, which is a brand new building built in the last 5 years, has zero high voltage charging points although there are a few 110V outlets scattered throughout the garage and I occasionally see folks charging a PHEV on them. But most spots don’t have access so if you aren’t lucky and someone has parked next to the 110V outlet, too bad.

There's very often less parking spots than apartment units. Also they add a lot to your rent (100$+ per month in Montréal). Parking on the street is usually cheaper even though I personally find it inconvenient enough to pay for a personal spot.

Not usually, no.

>People who buy EVs charge at home.

This statement is too absolute.

Only some subset of people who buy EVs charge at home. (Clearly it’s good to have the option if possible.) But others charge at work (often for free) and at public chargers or Tesla superchargers.

It's not an absolute statement. It's a statement in support of the statement that not as many charging ports are needed as gasoline pumps.

Another way to say it: 0% of ICE vehicles can be refueled at home. The percentage of EVs that can be refueled at home is significantly higher than 0%.

> It's a statement in support of the statement that not as many charging ports are needed as gasoline pumps.

On the other hand, the number of charging point minutes needed per 100 miles for an EV is much greater than the number of fuel pump minutes per 100 miles for an ICEV, so you need a very large percentage of EV charging to be done at home just to bring the number of charging points per EV needed to be equal to the number of gas pumps needed per ICEV.

It seems like if there is one charger per car (whether you keep your car at home or in a garage) then that would be a lot more electric chargers than gas pumps? Gas pumps get shared between a lot of cars.

This doesn't seem like a bad thing. It's nice to have your own charger.

Having the same number of public charging points than gas stations would incentive the adoption of Electric cars, people crave such comfort and saving costs (meaning the cost of putting a charge station at their home)

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