Yeah. So? By linking a framework that's using private APIs, this becomes your problem now. And Electron's problem, by extension. Go bug them, not Apple.
I remember how Microsoft was vilified for supposedly having secret Windows APIs that allowed Microsoft apps to get better performance.
That was mostly made up and even if such APIs existed, any program could have used it.
Even at the height of corporate arrogance Microsoft didn't dream of banning developers for using undocumented APIs.
Apple seems intent on becoming more evil than Microsoft ever was.
At some point the goodwill they built as underdog making great products will run out and some government somewhere will take an anti-trust action.
I'm just hoping it'll happen sooner rather than later.
and there is no update.
Apple, or Microsoft for that matter, would do the same thing here, because the locked down platform is more valuable/profitable then an open platform.
Developed for Android - at least you can have your app sideloaded if the platform owner decided to remote you.
Or better, make your app a progressive web app. Don't use hardware api not available to the browser and you cannot be removed!
Sure they could have, they had a code signing platform since the mid 90s and could have locked API access only to apps signed by them.
They didn't because it would have been pointless not because they couldn't figure out how.
It's actually also not true that Microsoft only ever blocked things based on signing cert from the Windows Store/UWP platform. Windows Defender Smart Screen blocked/blocks apps from running without user intervention unless it was either extremely well known or was signed (and even then if it was new you might still get caught by it).
This is how iOS works, FYI.
The fact is that all of MS’s Office competitors early on wrote horrible GUI apps whether it be fir Windows or the Mac.
I don't know what Apple means by "secret APIs", but I'm assuming they mean "undocumented APIs". Those are certainly real things that commonly exist.
> By definition an Application Programmers Interface is the vendors promise to other developers that when you call it
Yes, but those "other developers" may be other engineers in the same company. The APIs they use are still APIs, but are not intended for use by anyone outside the company.
Say Team A within Apple creates a module that is only to be used by Team B and C. Then Teams D creates a module that depends on Team A and B and they release a public API.
Team A should publish an internal documentation and Teams B and C should also not use methods that were not documented by Team A and Team A shouldn’t follow standard semantic versioning. If Teams B and C need some functionality they should inform Team A.
The same goes for Teams B and C. Also, Apple controls the release schedule for any internal teams. If they want to move to ARM tomorrow they can coordinate it within Apple without breaking any third party apps. The only team that has any responsibility to not break external developers is Team D.
If Apple starts allowing external developers to use private functions now their release schedule is tied to when enough major third party developers update their documentation.
Amazon is even a better example. They have a policy that everything should be a service internally and no team should reach “inside” of the implementation of another team.
Giving up software freedom for "ease of use" seemed like a fine deal at first but then Apple started making decisions that don't quite align with what neither users not developers want. Apple has already started taking advantage of their position as the gatekeeper of the platform.
Some of the private APIs being used have been stable for generations and are clear improvements in one way or another over the publicly available APIs (like CAContext stuff). I mean a modern OS is not like a library you stick up on NPM and hope no one tries to use internal methods that you'll end up having to support. There are so many desperate teams working on OSX and the applications from Apple that use these APIs, it's not like backwards compatibility, documentation, and most of the issues public APIs face aren't already an issue that has to be tackled.
Apple uses these APIs to make features no one can fairly compete with, which is detrimental to you, as a user, and to external developers. Imagine if any app could use APIs like the ones that Apple Music uses to have tight integration with Siri, or that Apple Maps uses to show on your lockscreen.
When push comes to shove, Apple can tell those teams to rewrite their code. It can't do that to the authors of, say, Firefox.
They literally do it regularly, public APIs get deprecated then removed and consumers have to rewrite their code.
This article is literally about Apple making 3rd parties rewrite their code just to access the app store.
And before you or someone else points out "Firefox is directly distributed", I say: Exactly. So they can use the internal APIs as they please, then Apple can remove then as they please and break Firrfox and... make Firefox rewrite their code.
Apple is not Microsoft. Apple does not work towards not breaking existing software, they actively break it with each macOS and iOS release, sometimes not even releasing the tools needed to fix them before general releases
Making an internal API people are already using public literally does nothing but optionally allow Apple to give a heads up about deprecation. Apple could literally slap "public" on every internal API, break them every release, and the result would be no different than the current status quo because of the overarching rule of App Store admissions... your app has to work, regardless of if an "internal" or "public" API is changed.
Honestly for most developers that wouldn't seem to different from the current situation: see iOS 13 where basic UILabel stuff was breaking.
And again, apps that don't use the App Store already use internal APIs and can already break all the time.
I work at a development agency and on both macOS and iOS every release is a race to figure out which breaking changes have been sprung by Apple (including crashes caused by silent changes in behavior of existing APIs, people have had apps rejected for breaking on pre-general release OS versions when we didn't even have the tools to test them yet)
Decades ago, when Apple introduced 68040 Macs, a lot of programs broke because they were writing self modifying code and that didn’t work with the 68040 cache. Whose fault was that Apple’s or the developers?
The modal example, it's to support new design language Apple is pushing, straight up breaks modals designed a certain (valid) way.
Catalina removed XML exports used by music apps. There was no deprecation warning.
Apple's recommended fix? Don't update if you need one of those apps.
These are not defects, they are literally breaking changes intentionally made with no warning.
I don't understand why all of you seem to be operating underthe assumption apps using "public APIs" just work with each OS update. It just doesn't work like that. They break and crash not due to defects but due to intentional changes
Apple did in fact provide a method to share music between apps and some apps do take advantage of it. Do you really think that Apple didn't need to do a major overhaul of iTunes?
Of course it's Apple's advice and common sense not to upgrade your OS until the apps you use are updated to support it.
This is all modern software engineering 101.
As a developer there are a few expectations.
- depending on private method may break your code with any point release. The vendor has no obligation not to break code if you depended on a private API.
- If your code breaks calling a public method during a point release, it is a bug and the vendor has an obligation not to break public API's when releasing a point release.
- If the vendor makes a breaking change during a major release (x.0.0). It's the vendor's responsible to communicate the breaking change and give enough notice to developers/users about breaking changes so that either the developer can fix their code, the user can find a replacement app, and/or the user not upgrade.
But lo and behold something useful did come of it, I finally found the fundamental misunderstanding keeping you from understanding what the crux of the issue is.
> If your code breaks calling a public method during a point release, it is a bug and the vendor has an obligation not to break public API's when releasing a point release.
Not when the vendor is Apple.
This whole time you've been operating on the set of rules that apply when your vendor considers you a partner of sorts, maybe in the vaguest sense of the word, but a partner nonetheless.
iOS point releases break things literally all the time. Iirc we actually saw more fires on 13.1 than 13.0
This literally has nothing to do with semantic versioning or whatever else you want to confuse it with. It's a blatant disregard for developers that Apple has carried throughout it's operations, from APIs to app store rejections. If anything the only reason they get the slightest pass is they're not Google, who manages to make talking to a human, no matter how hard they stonewall you, a selling point in mobile developer relations now.
But your argument has nothing to do with this submission - using private APIs.
At least one of your two examples - getting rid of XML exports - wasn’t about Apple breaking a public API during a point release. How is it a straw man refuting one of your major points? It was about Apple changing an API during a major release and letting developers know. This is how a vendor should behave.
Now whether they gave developers enough of a warning is a completely separate argument.
BTW: While it is a major change and no longer automatic. There is a manual workaround...
https://djtechtools.com/2019/10/10/update-to-catalina-heres-...
You ignored my perfectly good example of Apple breaking an API because you have nothing to say about it.
You ignored my comment you just replied to pointing out how irrelevant sem-ver is when your "vendor" doesn't care about you.
You are fixated on trying to nitpick the one tiny foothold you've found for your screed, one which only exists because you're ignoring the initial point I, not the article brought up, that this is an issue with Apple not caring about developers literally in the first comment you replied to.
Maybe spend more time reading and less time replying.
The electron rejection is not a symptom of Apple breaking a public API. It’s just the opposite. An API change didn’t break Electron apps - it was rejected for using a private API.
It’s not “nitpicking” to point out that your examples are completely irrelevant to the submitted article - Apple rejected an app that used private APIs. None of your examples have anything to do with the submitted post.
Would you also complain if you wrote a C program that depended on documented “undefined behavior”...
int b= a++ + ++a;
I said this internal API rejection situation of Apple not treating developers like partners
Like it's literally right there in the comment you replied to clear as day and yet you manage to muck it up then spend several more paragraphs on a new screed nitpicking your wrongly quoted text.
I'm done replying to this.
It’s dumb to use “internal”, private APIs. It always has been. It hurts your products stability, it hurts your customers, and it keeps the platform vendor from making rapid changes.
Microsoft never cared about you as a developer - they would just as easily run over you if it met their business objectives.
Microsoft has a history from the earliest days of existence of bending over for developers.
Going as far as to literally to add a special case to their memory allocator to support explicit undefined behavior (reading memory after free) for when a specific game, Sim City.
They avoided writing more than 80 characters on any given line in system.ini, because one specific program would fail to read those lines correctly, then delete the system.ini when attempting to write it back
Microsoft is literally still packaging 16-bit subsystems with Windows 10
Anyone actually interested in learning more about it should read Raymond Chen's blog and learn about the truly insane lengths Microsoft goes to make sure they don't break what developers have done, no matter how wrong it is:
https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/author/oldnewthin...
Honestly anyone who doesn't know the lengths Microsoft goes to treat developers as partners doesn't have the base knowledge for the conversation this thread has been about, but I digress.
[0] https://blog.dripstat.com/removal-of-sun-misc-unsafe-a-disas...
There was no other way to do what Unsafe did, so people used it for years.
A lot of people used it to do useful things in Java. So much stuff that this article is saying it literally became indispensable for much of what Java is used for. The ecosystem was better for it.
Sun says we want to remove it.
So Sun can provide alternatives that do the same job, or find that it generates so much value that it shouldn't be removed, or remove it and leave people literally exactly where they'd be if it never existed if there's no other way to do what it does. People would gnash their teeth, but the message sent is "Java was never the right tool for the job so we don't want you as a user."
And the article rightly points out, Sun was removing it for the sake of removing it. Having a bad engineering structure where that handwavy rant about Unsafe can justify removing a useful feature has nothing to do with internal vs public APIs.
Yes, I agree that the problem was that Sun didn't provide a public API for it, at the same time developers breaking the contract (instead of pushing for it to be moved to a `java.` namespace) shouldn't be excused and embraced, it causes bigger issues to the overall design of the platform when then you have to be maintaining an API for the sake of usage, the same cruft that Win32 suffers for its whole existence, and which made developing on Win32 a pain in the ass for a lot of people, for the sake of not breaking some twisted way that a major application used it.
This is hilarious, Apple breaks apps that only use public APIs on virtually every release they do, minor releases, security patches, you name it. Apple CONSTANTLY BREAKS THINGS.
Microsoft had private APIs and data structures too and it didn't stop developers from using them. However, their approach to that was different: they maintained bug compatibility with old software in order to keep stuff working. This is one of the main reasons why Windows remained relevant for so long.
The fact is Apple simply doesn't care about backwards compatibility. It's not just private APIs, public ones are also at risk:
https://lists.apple.com/archives/cocoa-dev/2019/Oct/msg00004...
It's not a new attitude either. Apple has always been like this:
https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2004/06/13/how-microsoft-lost...
> A lot of developers and engineers don’t agree with this way of working. If the application did something bad, or relied on some undocumented behavior, they think, it should just break when the OS gets upgraded.
> The developers of the Macintosh OS at Apple have always been in this camp. It’s why so few applications from the early days of the Macintosh still work.
> For example, a lot of developers used to try to make their Macintosh applications run faster by copying pointers out of the jump table and calling them directly instead of using the interrupt feature of the processor like they were supposed to.
> Even though somewhere in Inside Macintosh, Apple’s official Bible of Macintosh programming, there was a tech note saying “you can’t do this,” they did it, and it worked, and their programs ran faster... until the next version of the OS came out and they didn’t run at all.
Apple is proving you wrong.
People don't prefer MacOS because they are idiots who need "ease of use". There just is no other system developed with something approaching taste. Windows is for those people that put plastic covers over their furniture, ruining in the process of trying to protect it. Linux is for servers.
I worked on an app that competed with a Microsoft app. Our app was actually winning in the marketplace. One year they release a new version of their app with some really cool features at the same time as the latest Windows release. Those features were based on some new APIs released with that version of Windows. Just gave their app a year leap.
Another evil practice was forcing PC makers to pay for a Windows license for each computer sold irrespective of whether the computer shipped with Windows.
Microsoft was pretty evil.
The CA prefixed ones are core animation related. Some of the others appear to be drawing frame related. I am not sure what the remote one does. None of these are giving Apple a direct advantage. I bet Electron tried to access to them to draw web pages smoothly.
The Windows API availability window gave Windows apps market advantages.
There are other private Apple APIs that do give Apple an advantage against app developers. Those advantages are in accessing physical hardware and possibly associated software, background processing, and integration (iCloud, etc...) But these aren't the bone of contention.
>I bet Electron tried to access to them to draw web pages smoothly.
How is this not a direct advantage? If these uncommented API calls provide a better performing solution than anything a third party can make then that is a direct advantage. Apps with that call could have a longer battery life or just run smoother.
When you consider that Windows has to keep backwards compatibility with applications from decades ago using whatever calls to Win32, to the point of keeping comments in the source code about why some call is done that way and shouldn't be changed then it's pretty fair that a company providing a platform wants to keep a tidy, secure (or at least following their guidelines for security/privacy concerns) public API.
The Java community had a huge debacle about `sun.misc.Unsafe`, it was a private API being abused by numerous libraries[0] and when its removal was announced there was a quite big backlash about its repercussions.
I don't think that Apple is evil because of its enforcement on private APIs, there might be other issues with this enforcement but there are very valid reasons to do it.
[0] https://blog.dripstat.com/removal-of-sun-misc-unsafe-a-disas...
The prehistory is that developers for the Apple ][ had access to third party documentation, and made extensive use of unofficial system variables and entry points. The result was that it became impossible for Apple to update their own system without breaking popular apps and getting blamed for doing so. It turned Apple ][ technology into a dead end.
The Mac was intended to be a much more tightly controlled developer environment. And it came out at a time when there was still a lot of debate over the right way to develop a computing platform.
IBM had a different approach, which was to make things more open like the Apple ][, and they paid the price for it. For instance, a lot of the weird limitations of the IBM PC were caused by developers bit-banging hardware registers and video memory rather than going through "official" BIOS calls that were less efficient.
I don't personally know the right answer, but this is just the history as I recall it. At the time I preferred the IBM approach, because I could do some friendly bit banging and get stuff done, but my programs were mostly for a severely limited audience and lifespan. Today I try to do things in a way that insulates me from knowing anything about the platform that I'm using.
https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.3758/BF03203836.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applesoft_BASIC#Extensions
http://nparker.llx.com/a2/as.addons.html
"C is just PEEK and POKE with syntactic sugar." -- Bill Joy
This is very much not true. The entire extension mechanism on Macs was about using undocumented hacks to add functionality. Apple has no control over what a third party app could do through the Classic MacOS era from 1984-1999.
In fact, it wasn’t until around 2011-2012 when Apple started having sandboxing and that was only for Mac App Store apps. It was even later that they had system integrity protection. Even today, you can basically do what you want to on the Mac except for having unsigned kernel extensions.
In a completely fair world a substantial number of executives would probably be in jail.
What happens when Apple updates the operating system and starts throwing up a big dialog box every time an app accessed a private API that says “the publisher of this app needs to update their poorly written app.”?
What next? Is the EU going to also ban language makers from having public and private functions?
Apple is within their rights here, but please, let's not pretend this is about user experience.
It's about the Apple machine doing what it wants, and rolling over who it wants, because it can.
That would explain why Apple developer relations (read: humans) had previously backpedalled after the same rejection in the past:
https://github.com/electron/electron/issues/20027
Most likely these rejections were not intentionally resumed, but because the machine that is app stores these days is completely non-deterministic, this could still be a big problem.
This time the wrong developer could reach out to the wrong channel and trip some sort of trap that turns this into a "known issue: won't fix + always send automated reply", instead of someone with the right connections getting to the right person and having them go and flip a switch that fixes everything with their pinky finger.
The problem isn't the usage of an internal API, the problem is the breaking of an internal API.
Which is already covered by App Store testing and guidelines which already require your app isn't a broken mess.
By Apple, or the Electron developers?
Which is not a homogenous group, both in ideals and for why they'd upvote a submission like this.
> this rejection, and it's backing policy to be nonsensical
They're different things. I personally think the rejection is perfectly sensical in the context of the backing policy, with which I don't fully agree.
Apple will only listen if it hits their bottom line.
When you are writing any software that has a public API you should feel no obligation to change the functionality or completely remove a private method without warning.
[1] I refuse to call it a private API. An API is public documentation of the inputs and expected behavior of a dependency. It should be a completely black box how that functionality is implemented.
This is not Apple "watching out" for the developers, no matter how much you spin it
Apple's policy towards private APIs has been known for years.
Apple is roadblocking the use of private APIs, not languages. Or interpreted another way, they're roadblocking frameworks, not languages. This is true whether you're using Javascript, Swift, or C. This rule has been in place for years.
If you can't avoid Apple's stores then make damn sure you fall in line as they effectively own you.
I mean, did Electron or Google just refuse to fix this? Are these private APIs things that actually get exercised in the apps being threatened?
It's not so much about culpability or Apple's right to control their app deployment environment, it's that the response seems really disproportionate to the offense and pretty badly misdirected.
A more conspiratorially minded poster might wonder if the real goal here was to dissuade developers from using cross-platform frameworks...
Thank you Apple for keeping things clean!!