Uber facing ban in Geneva | Hacker News Reader

Uber facing ban in Geneva

thelocal.ch

32 pointsEtheryte19 comments

I'm quite surprised that Uber was able to even have any sort of hold in Geneva. I visited my Aunt in Geneva for a few weeks in 2006 and she lived 5-10 miles from the city center and even that far out there was a bus that came by every 9 minutes. The only time we drove was when we went into France. From my short visit I also got the impression that Switzerland is very serious about their taxes. We went grocery shopping across the border in France for the lower prices/taxes and every time we crossed back into Switzerland we got searched by border crossing security to ensure we weren't bringing too many goods across the border based on the number of occupants in the vehicle.

Can you please explain a bit more what the border looked like? I was under the impression that there was no border within the Schengen area.

It's been over a decade and I didn't drive while we were there but I remember it looking a lot like a tollbooth in the US, but one with military/police looking people that would randomly, or not so randomly, select people to pull off to the side so that they could search your vehicle. At least one time when we crossed into France to go grocery shopping we were searched and had to show our passports and they looked through our groceries and asked to see the receipt.

I'm no expert on the EU or Schengen Area, but the Wikipedia page says that "Switzerland was allowed to participate in the same manner in 2008" so it's certainly possible that the situation is completely different now.

There are still occasional checks around the Geneva / France border to check your purchases. They just seem random. Sometimes they are there, sometimes they aren't. Locals tell me they are out in weekends when people shop.

There are also city buses that cross the border without stopping unless they randomly get stopped. The trains from France come into a particular platform at Cornavin train station where they can see people exit and talk to anyone carrying a lot of stuff.

The rules and process is confusing to a non-local like me but pretty low hassle in the end.

What if Uber capped driver hours to something low like 2-3 per day to eliminate co-dependence?

Then who would drive for them but true gigsters? People only looking for sidejobs.

That's who they claim they've got driving for them, so that sounds reasonable. Or they could pay the taxes.

That’s precisely the point. If letting people drive full time is creating all if this ethical dilemma and regulatory pressure, cut it out of the equation. It might even drive prices up.

True but some people will want more than a few hours a day.

I mean I don’t care much either way.

Totally agree but it’s causing way too many problems.

What are the problems it's causing?

That seems to work, until Lyft and the gang show up -- when drivers have several hours-limited jobs but they're in the same condition anyway. Better to just tax the companies doing this.

> Poggia stressed that the order is retroactive, meaning that Uber would be expected to pay social charges for all of its drivers since it entered the Geneva market in late 2014.

It's rather late for that

Only if they wish to continue service as-is. They could also just close up shop.

This makes absolutely no difference. Rules for self-employment are much stricter: https://www.kmu.admin.ch/kmu/en/home/concrete-know-how/setti...

Even if you hire a cleaner for a few hours a week, it’s still considered employment: https://lenews.ch/2016/08/17/7-step-guide-to-hiring-a-cleane...

Uber's position is that they are a marketplace and that it's the rider hiring the driver for services.

https://marketplace.uber.com/

Now if Switzerland has regulations around marketplace access (e.g. do farmers have to evidence eligibility for self-employment before renting a booth at a town pavilion for market day?) then Uber would clearly be obligated to comply.

However, the eligibility requirements for self-employment for the driver would appear to be fully the driver's responsibility to meet. And the relationship between employer and employee in the link you provided about cleaners would seem to actually be between the driver and the fare that hired them for the trip.

Now people can call bullshit on the whole marketplace idea, and it's much easier to make the case when drivers are basically doing it full time...hence my suggestion that they limit 'marketplace access' to avoid that situation.

I don't know. All of the hand-wringing about driver treatment just doesn't make sense to me. I guess if we assume drivers are too stupid to make their own financial decisions it makes sense, but otherwise i don't get it.

The matter is very simple, if we abstract ourselves away from any platform or market discussion.

Someone has to be on the hook to pay social deductions, unemployment insurance, etc. If Uber requires all its drivers to be companies, then these companies would be responsible. Since Uber allowed private persons, then they have to cover it.

I think the part where the riders have to pay the deductions is interesting. It would be the case if I hired someone directly, but in this case I interact with Uber who offers the service.

This is the default expectation in Switzerland, direct hire - pay the social deductions, hiring a company - pay only what’s on the bill.

Swiss law protects the employees, if social deductions are not paid it’s the employer’s fault.

OK that’s a good way way of breaking it down. Definitely seems like Uber was sloppy at the least. Guess that’s why we’re chatting. :)

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