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My watch says I get between 20 minutes and 70 minutes of deep sleep a night, out of 7 ~ 9 hours total.

I've tried Magnesium, Melatonin, turning off all devices hours before bed, turning off all lights hours before bed, sleeping in a cold room, etc.

I'm not overweight or unhealthy. I take in zero caffeine, zero alcohol/zero drugs. I do take a daily PPI.

I feel tired a lot, and I seem to feel more tired on days when my watch (Xiaomi Smart Band 3) reports the lowest deep sleep scores (I consider how I'm feeling first, then look at the sleep score to compare).

I want more deep sleep, but try as I might I don't know how to make it happen.

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One thing I want to try to eliminate stress is an internet detox. I think just surfing the web, even semi-intelligent stuff like Hacker News, might be really stressful. I ditched my computer and phone today while the sun was up and it was an uneasy feeling -- beyond the withdrawal, it seemed like the world I was seeing was actually a lot brighter and safer than what I'd read about online. People seemed more approachable or at least safer and happier when I took the time to look. I cleaned my room on the third hour because I wanted to, not because some stressed out blogger told me to. Right now I feel just relaxed.

This may sound stupid but it's the first time in a while that I ditched the internet in a place where I normally would have it. Now I'm wondering if our more primitive ancestors would have viewed it as a cesspool of negativity that not only freaks us out but distracts us from more obvious personal issues.

Anyway the connection to sleep is that stress obviously can mess with your sleep.

I've often thought that the internet is like a global version of a small-town gossip network. Vital to proper functioning, but something to be minimized when possible.

Prof. Matthew Walker says the accuracy of sleep trackers when it comes to per stage time is questionable. See Peter Attia podcasts w/ Walker.

Have you thought about going to a sleep lab to get some higher quality data? It’s near impossible to diagnose someone over the Internet, especially when the subject matter is so complex.

That's good to hear! My sleep tracker seems to base results on heart rate, and maybe my heart rate doesn't dip enough during sleep to register?

I'd like to do a sleep study, but it's over $1,000 out of pocket, so not a small investment.

That seems plausible to me. I don’t know if HR is a good enough signal, since it varies so much between person to person.

Didn’t know they were that pricy, ouch.

It will be worth it. No price is too high for a lifetime of good sleep.

I think the problem is that most sleep trackers try to judge sleep based on heart-rate, which I don't think is valid.

There are a few sleep headbands that use an EEG though and in my experience they've been reliable (e.g. mine correctly judges when I actually fall asleep and has correctly judged that I was in REM sleep when I woke up from a dream).

I will not trust a "smart" watch. However, your fatigue is not a good sign. You should get medical advice.

Perhaps you are not breathing right during your sleep. A possibility is sleep apnea. I do have allergies which make me tired after sleep, during some seasons. One of the ways I cope is to do breathing exercises before I sleep. This does help sometimes.

I had a screwed up septum which created apneas & poor sleep. Took a long time to figure out, none of the sleep doctors noticed. I imagine nine out of ten of their patients are there because of alcohol, caffeine, or obesity.

Do you get good, exhausting exercise? I've found that's the magic formula for me.

Great question. I suppose not exhausting enough! Getting my heart rate up from walking rapidly up steep hills, doing low-weight squats, pushups/bicep curls, etc seems to have no effect.

I guess I should try lifting heavy, consistently over weeks, and see if that does anything.

I've found certain types of martial arts to be one of the most exhausting activities I have ever done. Boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, Wrestling, no amount of lifting has gotten me as exhausted as those have. Slept like a baby.

I’d also suggest some interval training. If you have access to stair steppers, I highly recommend them. Easy to get started, and not too tough on your joints. 2 minutes at a pace that’s tough to sustain, and then 2 minutes off. I have a max HR of ~200 and I tend to level off at 180-188 during the interval section. Once you get accustomed to it you can play around with the timing ofc.

Higher intensity, which doesn't have to come from heavier weight per say, but increased power, work/time meaning total work, higher weight up or time down.

HIIT/interval/crossfit style are prime examples of in my opinion the most efficient way to achieve "exhausting" workouts (lowest time commitment, and with group gym style, lowest mental effort to formulate workout plans; it's all left to the trainer).

I would think that more strenuous cardio would be more effective than lifting heavy.

Watch out for that spikes your adrenaline like sprinting or heavy lifting in the evening though. That said I always get amazing sleep after heavy deadlifts as done properly they fatigue your CNS much more than the individual muscles so its like your brain forces a shutdown to recover. Squats and bench just wake me up though.

The magic exercise for me is jogging at least 3 miles at about a heart rate of 150-160. I consistently get 3 hours deep sleep according to the AutoSleep app and dream heavily. Otherwise I’m usually getting 1-1.5 hours deep sleep with other exercise and less than 1 if I don’t do anything all day. Just an anecdote for comparison.

I tried running / jogging (lower HR because my heart is bad) but beside this I worked at a recycling factory. Handling truck parts, crouching to unscrew frames etc etc. This kind of evergoing physical activity drained me deeper and smoother than jogging.

This is why I wish there was a job where I could work at a computer part of the time and do some strenuous physical activity part of the time. I am so useful sitting at a desk but it’s not so useful to me to always be sedentary. Sadly nobody would want to pay my engineering rate for picking weeds in the garden or taking out all the trash.

I did this in June, 39h/week on trucks. Paradoxically I was pumped by this because having regular activity and financial safety freed me from a ton of issues. So much that during lunch pause I was doing pushups and before bedtime I'd learn Django to make an application for this job. Unfortunately the boss did me wrong so I quit.

To babble a bit more: in August I tried taking a part time morning delivery gig (4-8m 24h/week) thinking it would feel the same but not at all (newspaper delivery is physically stressful), so I quit drained after a month, even though it required no effort and was less time per week than the truck thing.

Right now I have a 30h/week food delivery gig, it's just right to keep me active and the rest of the day I'm writing vue code now.

I may try to find something that would make my body more fit. Maybe having a woodworking shop or something similar.

Here here, I feel the same. I'm not really a fan of sports or working out, but doing physical activity for a job or such (in college I worked at a supermarket stacking shelves) I enjoy.

My wife and I are thinking of buying and renovating an old apartment ourselves. Of course economically it would be better for me to work and pay someone else to do it, but the benefits of learning a new skill and doing something physical are worth it IMHO.

Just fyi... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hear,_hear

Ahhh yes renovating an old house sounds like fun! As long as you give yourself all the time you need to finish (otherwise it would be stressful). I think some day I’ll buy an old house and fix things on the weekend.

My team (those who want to) and I spend about one hour per day working out over lunch. As team manager I believe these positive effects far outweighs the time “lost”, on so many levels.

“Working out” is difficult for many, but it can be so many things. For a year or so we spent time on movement training, something I highly recommend in general.

I'm up for hire ! :p

I worked at google and found the gym nice but not my preferred way of exercise. I want to be outdoors. I grew up outdoors. The cold white walls of the gym were as depressing as the office. Now I work at a beautiful farm though still mostly at the computer. I could try a mid day hike though! Ideally though I wish I could be getting paid for some kind of physical work part of the time. I understand that if I want to get high pay then I’m not going to be paid to pull weeds, I’m just lamenting my sedentary career.

commenting for breadcrumbs, I'm working on a relevant project and am encouraged by how many people are expressing this sentiment!

could you tell more ?

The most basic version is to combine a sandbox or incubator with a productive rural property. I think breaking up one's building sessions with a session of physical work in a garden or similar would really help prevent burnout and would keep the costs of starting up super low. I grew up in a rural area and several of my friends and I have been discussing how those sorts of large properties could be used productively, and that is a solution we think is worth trying.

Rather than quoting the HR, it would be more useful to share the % of MHR. Is your MHR 220bpm? 170bpm? Dramatically changes the meaning of exercising @ 150-160bpm.

Good point. Never measured MHR explicitly although I know there are estimations. It’s probably between 55% and 65% of my MHR. It’s literally right at the transition point of being able to talk while running and not being able to haha

Do you run in the morning or in the evening?

I usually run in the evening. Honestly a good question because that could be significant in its sleep impact.

I've found that it works this way for a while, but as fitness rises getting that same bone deep exhaustion gets quite difficult (at least without spending hours on it). Is there a way to switch things up and keep that going long term?

Higher intensity interval style exercises can get you there no matter your level of fitness. If you’ve never tried sprint intervals on an assault bike I’d recommend giving those a shot.

What's working for me right now is 'running' up hills. Running not in the 'fast' sense yet but it works. I found a nice route, 7-8km, 250m up and the same down in three climbs and descents each and will keep running it for now. As I can always increase speed to make it more demanding, it will be fine for a long time most likely.

Heavy exercise makes me very hot at night for some reason. It's nearly impossible to sleep or stay still. It's worse if I do it later in the day, but if it's intense enough it doesn't matter when. I wonder why...

Do you shower off? The layer of salt makes me sticky & hot right up until I rinse it off.

Yeah always. Usually I go to the gym in the morning so I shower after getting back.

Perhaps get a chilli pad sleep cooling system for your bed

Quite expensive but maybe worth it, thanks for the tip

curious how do those apps know when you are having deep sleep? also seems that being exhausted works for me as well. thanks for mentioning.

For me it has the opposite effect. After intense exercise I feel more awake and energetic than before, and this lasts long enough to disrupt my sleep.

Go get a sleep study done. That will tell you. You may have sleep apnea. Also you may want to ask your doctor about a sleep aid such as ambien.

Not suggesting you’re saying this, but I want to state that Ambien should never be the first tool in the toolbox for better sleep. The state it produces is not too dissimilar from a knockout.

>Also you may want to ask your doctor about a sleep aid such as ambien.

Exactly the wrong advice. Ambien decreases NREM 3 duration and amplitude. Do not ask for Ambien.

The doctor who wrote Why We Sleep do not recommend those sleeping pills IIRC.

To put it mildly:

Sleeping pills do not provide natural sleep, can damage health, and increase the risk of life-threatening diseases. (p. 282)

On Ambien specifically:

If you compare natural, deep-sleep brainwave activity to that induced by modern-day sleeping pills, such as zolpidem (brand name Ambien) or eszopiclone (brand name Lunesta), the electrical signature, or quality, is deficient.

Matthew Walker wrote that book [1]. He also has a few talks on YouTube worth checking out. From memory [2] was an informative one for me.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_We_Sleep [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXflBZXAucQ

Great book, need to finish it (always too tired...).

He's not a medical doctor, but a sleep researcher.

In general I would ask a relevant researcher if a drug is any good at all for the desired effect, and a doctor if it's the right one from me. A negative response from a researcher is pretty disqualifying (unless it's a fringe opinion)

Also worth mentioning prolonged use (>2 weeks) changes the brain, making it more difficult to fall asleep again (without using more Ambien...)

Asking a doctor is hardly a wrong advice, might produce a more informed opinion than that from an Internet forum.

You are much more likely to get good results if you go to a doctor's appointment armed with knowledge and good questions to ask. Yes, don't trust everything you read on an Internet forum, but don't dismiss it either.

Ambien is bad shit. I can't understand how it is not made illegal.

It destroy sleep, by creating an addiction making it impossible to fall asleep without it.

And it is bad sleep as the brain does not go into deep sleep

I wish there was safe pills in the US. I use benadryl.

Melatonin works for me, say once every month or two when I need it.

I pour about 1/5th of a capsule into a glass of water.

The default dosage is far too high.

If you have an uncommon issue most doctors won't be able to help you beyond a superficial level. Asking a wide range of people is helpful as long as you weigh there input accordingly.

It would be helpful if you provided a citation that justifies your claim.

Do get a sleep study to rule out sleep apnea.

Ambien is for inducing sleep, not maintaining it. It should be treated as a "in case of emergency break glass" option.

Trazodone is more widely prescribed nowadays. Ambien, sonata, lunesta and the like are generally not prescribed for long term use. Plain old benadryl may work well if you haven’t tried it.

"Common anticholinergic drugs like Benadryl linked to increased dementia risk"

"In a report published in JAMA Internal Medicine, researchers offers compelling evidence of a link between long-term use of anticholinergic medications like Benadryl and dementia."

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/common-anticholinergic-d...

Further, Ambien use is also linked to dementia and alzheimers: https://www.alzdiscovery.org/cognitive-vitality/blog/can-som...

Evening qigong routine, I know people who have had good results with this: https://youtube.com/watch?v=o9kvYnWKG3g

what about physical exercise ?

what about social / emotional life ?

these are the two most impactful factors I've experienced so far. Good physical exhaustion made me sleep like a baby. And a stress free job (min wage) made me sleep better too.. the simplest call for an IT job made me wake up in the middle of the night and thinking.

This is the first time i've connected running a company to poor sleep quality. Jeeze what a wake up call. Thanks!

Running a company is also not good for my teeth. I grind like crazy when sleeping at stressful times.

Maybe undiagnosed sleep apnea? I love/hate my CPAP machine, but it helps me. There is a clear difference when I opt out.

For me it was environmental. Turns out the air conditioning was dehydrating me to the point of waking up every night. Do you sleep better on vacation when you're away from home?

I had a similar problem. I was waking up in the middle of the night not able to get back to sleep for hours and then overslept in the morning feeling groggy for the rest of the day.

Here's what I did: 1. Sleep alone in a separate bed since your SO other might wake you up inadvertently - this helped me 2. Wim Hof method for a few weeks: deep breathing and cold showers in the morning.

I'm not sure which of these worked. I did these two things simultaneously and my sleep significantly improved over a couple of weeks. I'm fully recovered in the morning, feeling energized and can actually remember dreams which never happened before. I don't need Melatonin anymore and can even have an espresso in the morning. Good luck!

No idea if it works for you, but if I need to sleep _really_ well I wear ear plugs, even in a relatively quiet room. They need to fit right (rolled between your palms to squish them up, then they should barely fit inside your ear and expand to fill gaps).

The first time I did this it was revelatory. I woke up feeling like a new person. Sadly I don't much these days, because sleeping through a hungry/wet/scared infant isn't as acceptable (also I was a little disturbed what I could, in fact, sleep through, and whether that included smoke alarms)

I have tried sleeping with earplugs. For some reason I wake up gasping for breath?

Your watch doesn't know what it's talking about.

I have a watch, an under-mattress tracker and a headband with a ton of sensors (including an EEG). Typically, none of these agree with each other (and I trust the headband to actually be accurate).

I'd strongly recommend consulting a sleep specialist.

One thing you haven't mentioned is cognitive behavioural therapy, which is often the first thing people will be recommended.

I know of the under mattress thing (Beddit for example), but I've never heard of headbands for consumers. What companies are offering those?

The two I know of that are still running are Dreem (the one I went with) and Philips SmartSleep.

I chose Dreem at the time because it looked more comfortable (no ear covering) and was more readily available in my part of the world. It looks like Philips also has consumable components, which I'm not a fan of.

I've been using it for months now and I'm happy with it.

It also has a feature to "stimulate" your brain to improve deep sleep and it tells me it's quite effective (comparing with stimulation sleep to without stimulation sleep), though I can't say I've noticed a huge difference.

Thank you!

How were you taking melatonin? I got great benefit from it but only when I always took it at the exact same time every night, turned lights out, no screens, etc. it would still take about 3 hours to kick in. I’d take it and not shut off lights for about an hour and a half, fwiw.

After trial and error, I pour 1/5th of a capsule into a glass of water.

It puts me to sleep within 45 ~ 60 minutes, pretty much without fail.

But then my deep sleep is still far too low.

How about multiple sleeping periods per night? Ie wake up, do things until tired again, sleep. I can feel especially rested that way.

I think there’s something special, too, about a morning nap after some caffeine has started to kick in.

Fwiw I have the same habit and experience with my mi fit band 2. I try to gauge how much sleep I got based in how I feel, before looking to hopefully avoid placebo. I feel considerably better the nights I get 1.5-2 hours of deep sleep

Thanks for your comment, it just nudged me to install two additional heart and sleep monitoring Apple Watch/iPhone apps. I don’t wear my Apple Watch to bed, but I will start tonight and collect a few weeks of data. curiosity++

I have exactly the same problem as you. I'm looking for a solution too and it seems that deep sleep length/continuity might be linked with serotonin levels. Did you take a blood test on serotonin?

Did you check CO2 levels in the bedroom, or at least take care that CO2 should theoretically exit the room? Just unlocking the window handle a little bit can create a bit of air circulation.

Good point! I always sleep with a window in the room at least a bit open, for air flow.

And the deep sleep issues are constant across home, hotel rooms, etc.

You seem to be doing all the right things. The only thing I could suggest that might help you trying cold showers before bed as painful as that sounds. It apparently promotes more restful sleep.

Hot shower 60-90 minutes before bed. Lowers your core temperature.

If poor sleep is affecting your life and you can't understand why, see a doctor.

IF its just because your watch said so, don't worry about it.

How are your iron/ferritin levels? Low iron causes fatigue

Body is just one half of the equation for Deep Sleep

I started doing metta a few years ago when I was having a rough time. It was the one thing that made me feel better every single time.

The basic instructions for are to say (or think),

“May all beings be happy.

May all beings be healthy.

May all beings be safe.

May all beings be peaceful.

May all beings be free from suffering.”

In this way you intentionally cultivate a peaceful, benevolent state of mind. I started doing this for entirely selfish reasons—it made me feel better! But doing this regularly for a few months I noticed an undercurrent of deep peace developing in me.

You can replace “all beings” with “I”, loved ones, or people you are experiencing difficulty with. You start with whichever person feels easiest to appreciate and work your way up, so to speak :)

Best wishes

get a sleep study and find out if you have sleep apnea.

Bring out the big guns. Time you get you started on Lunesta.

Shut off your wifi and put phone on airplane mode. Don't put a blue tooth sleep tracker right buy your head either.

On what basis to you give this advice? Do you think wifi is preventing sleep, and if so, by what mechanism? Those RF frequencies do not penetrate into the brain.

Wifi definitely prevents my sleep through the Hacker News mechanism.

Wifi absolutely prevents sleep. It does so through a mechanism called "surfing the Internet on your phone in bed." Ditching the wifi and switching to wired Ethernet won't save you from this phenomenon either! The problem is a sleep endangering device that's designed to shoot particles (which also behave like waves) directly into your head! It captures the wifi signal which the device uses to reconfigures its photon emitter, which will disrupt your sleep.

The only solution is to leave your phone on the other side of the room or if you can help it, another room entirely.

But seriously, sleep hygiene is an important aspect of basic hygiene that should be more broadly taught, but isn't.

Just anecdotal. What's the harm in trying it a couple of nights? I was just as skeptical until I tried it. I could link to several fringe studies but what's the point? Nobody serious is going to fund this kind of research. And it's passed the tipping point, how could you find a control group that has not had previous exposure? But of course it does penetrate, it goes through walls.

> But of course it does penetrate, it goes through walls.

Are your walls conductive, eg, largely made of water with various electrolytes? Because otherwise the comparison is senseless. Imagine putting an 8mm or so layer of of skin/fat/bone across each wall. By what factor would that reduce received power on the other side of the wall.

The max power out of a wifi router is 100 mW, that is a tenth of a watt. The amount of power impinging on your body from any reasonable distance will reduce that power quadratically. The amount of power which makes it through your skin and bone to get to your brain, considering it is 2.2 GHz or 5 GHz, is another factor lower.

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