You still do it within the context of existing laws. Democracies rely on leadership by majority so you have to operate within that system.
If it worked the way you imply what would be the limit to what you can justify with “self determination”?
If it worked the way you imply what would be the limit to what you can justify with “self determination”?
Existing laws may be undemocratic and unjust. If your bar for secession is legality, I will have to point out that the United States should still be part of the British Empire (The revolution was illegal), Hong Kong should pipe down, and stop protesting (They are bound by CPC laws, which have ruled the protests illegal), and most of Africa should still be governed from London and Paris (Most of it did not leave in the context of existing laws.)
> what would be the limit to what you can justify
There really isn't one, but six people seceeding their house is not going to be a minimally viable country for very obvious reasons. When you secede, you lose a lot of benefits, including economic, military, etc, protection from neighboring states.
So you can find a limit. What if Barcelona does not want to be in that new country (and they don’t)? Will the borders of that new country inside which you start counting votes include Barcelona against their will? What freedoms do people who want to stay with the "original" country get? They suddenly become the oppressed minority. How many splinters is too many?
You object to the “dictatorship” of democracy in Spain but the plan is do do the exact same at a smaller scale in the new country to a newly created minority. The reason we’ve had the longest period of peace and prosperity in Europe’s history is that the rules are as they are now and they're the best compromise. Any “improvement” you want to get for yourself comes at a major cost for everyone.
Catalonia should have a right to poll its people about whether to engage in negotiations, and to discuss terms with Spain (who, naturally, should represent coherent minority interests in Catalonia who do not want to depart).
Spain should have a right to say "Well, look, the border should not include Barcelona since 60% of them (or whatever the figure might be in a just and fair plebiscite) have expressed a desire to remain".
Once fair negotiations have taken place and each side has accepted that they have won some and lost some, Catalonia could have another referendum, and it might turn out that no-one wants independence from both Madrid and Barcelona.
Spain says it's illegal to start, middle and end the process. If the Catalans don't really want to separate, then starting is free. It will almost certainly increase the order and decrease the tension if they let a plebiscite go forward.
(The last paragraph is an irrelevance, since there's no evidence that a European Union of many smaller states, incapable of independently sustaining a modern armed force, will be any more likely to go to war than a European Union of fewer larger states, capable of independently sustaining modern armed forces. In fact, even putting the argument down in black on tan really brings out its ridiculousness.)
Polling someone about something implies one of the results is perfectly possible. I considered that as being the final result for the purpose of the discussion because that's the crux of the matter. So yes, that is the only side that matters. There are no "fair" negotiations to be had. Spain has nothing to gain. It would not only show willingness to let illegal activity go unpunished and worse, it encourages it by negotiating.
What happens next time someone wants something illegal according to country laws and constitution? Negotiate every time? There is no negotiation that will please everybody and at best you'd end up with a random collection of patches where 100% of the population wants independence (since you don't want to oppress anyone).
> Spain should have a right to say "Well, look, the border should not include Barcelona since 60% of them (or whatever the figure might be in a just and fair plebiscite) have expressed a desire to remain".
What about the 40% (just to fit the math) that want the independence in Barcelona? Aren't they to Barcelona what Catalonia is to Spain? Should they splinter from Barcelona? How many times do you splinter? How long until you say "well I think we have enough"? And when you do isn't that arbitrary and hypocritical?
Both results of asking Catalonia whether or not it should start negotiating with Spain as to what independence would look like are completely possible. It's up to Spain to accept that possibility, though, not Catalonia.
> There are no "fair" negotiations to be had. Spain has nothing to gain.
Internal stability, an end to social unrest, and doing the right thing, by letting people govern themselves, is not something to gain?
You shouldn't block your spouse from divorcing you in a broken marriage, and you should generally not keep people who want to leave, in your country.
> What happens next time someone wants something illegal according to country laws and constitution? Negotiate every time?
Generally speaking, when there's a large demand in a democracy for an unjust law to be changed, the correct thing to do is to, in fact, change the law.
> What about the 40% (just to fit the math) that want the independence in Barcelona? Aren't they to Barcelona what Catalonia is to Spain? Should they splinter from Barcelona? How many times do you splinter? How long until you say "well I think we have enough"? And when you do isn't that arbitrary and hypocritical?
That's the whole point of going to the negotiating table, in good faith. To discuss the options, to figure out how edge cases will work. If Barcelona wants to remain in Spain, I see no reason for why Catalonian secession should have to include it. Catalonia can then make the choice of whether or not it wants to secede without Barcelona. It will probably choose to not do so, and you will solve your problem without turning to violence and repression.
Of course, this requires negotiating in good faith, which seems to be anathema.
It appears that most of the country (Spain) does not agree hence the existing laws. It's questionable whether even most of Catalonia agrees. Just because a small minority thinks that it's the right thing means nothing in the context of a whole country.
> You shouldn't block your spouse from divorcing you
If you have to use broken analogies to make the point then you don't have much of a point. It should be pretty clear right now that unlike divorce, what we're talking about here is illegal. You don't get to vote whether laws apply to you or not. The country as a whole votes what happens to the country.
> when there's a large demand in a democracy
Spain is the democracy, not Catalonia. And Spain's laws/constitution are pretty clear. The only democratic process that would be valid right now is to change the laws as a country, and then do anything about independence.
You seem to think democracy is this weird selective process where you can take an arbitrary group of people and as long as they mostly agree on something then everyone should submit to that.
Your logic above is perfectly able to justify anything, even genocide, as long as laws no longer apply because (local) majority consensus exists.
Also, in every case you mention, there were international support for the secession, while the Catalan independist movement, in spite of its strong efforts, has got almost zero support. By the way, this is the same international community who thinks that Spanish laws are not undemocratic or unjust.
I don't think that's really the right reason for saying a house isn't valid. Catalonia is a well defined, self-governing region of Spain. That means the Spaniards have already admitted that they're basically a sensible territory for being an independent state.
You could probably argue, in a case like the US, that New York isn't a valid territory for independence since it was created a long time ago prior to much settlement in the area - but the self government isn't revokable under the US constitution.
Catalonia has no such problem, since its autonomy is a relatively recent gift and is constantly revokable, so the fact that the Spanish haven't done it is proof that they think it's reasonable.
Even then, you still have places like Monaco and San Marino, which are very small. It's hard to argue they're minimally viable countries, just places history forgot, but they are independent.
At difference than Norway, there is a silent majority in Catalonia that is fuming. They had being opressed in the last decades by separatism. Now they can't exit home without finding a burning barricade and the pavement vandalised, can't go to work without finding the highway blocked by a group of clowns sit singing kumbaya, can't enter in the university without the permit of masked people boycotting the classes and closing the doors (It does not really matter because they will not find a local job anymore in the 5000 companies that have quited the area by this permanent climate of confrontation).
Poor workers struggling to survive, students from modest families, owners of small family bussiness sued by using spanish in their small shops, elders that can't sleep by youngs playing war games all night... Being poked in the eye each month, each day, hour and minute, by children demanding permanent attention. Children that want to steal their rights and identity, make their lifes miserable and chase them off from their homes and properties...
In some moment of the future this silent half will face some apparently trivial issue, reach boiling point, explode and raise in a bloodthirsty rage swirl.
Separatists crave to achieve a reaction from Spain that would justify their agenda, but trust me, the mortal hit will come from inside.
The rest of Spain will take some popcorn and enjoy the carnage and backstabbing on TV
Why do you insist on keeping people who feel that way in the country, against their will?
It's something that often puzzles me against political stances that oppose separatism. Often, they both express contempt for the people who want to leave, while at the same time, not allowing them to.
No-one is opposing separatism by the way, it's just that the whole country has to agree. The catalans signed up to the constitution like everyone else.
Why should they be able to shit all over it? And by the way is less than half of catalans who want this.
This awfully sounds like:
"We know better" "Hey Catalans, you guys don't really know what's good for you, so we are taking decisions on your behalf"
All your argument can only be explained from the right of conquest.
Hey Catalans, you guys really know what's good for you!, you are trying to get out of Spain and EU all in the same step. Hooow foxxxyyy!
You don't want to be like those savages that speak spanish in Chile, Buenos Aires, Mexico, Los Angeles or Madrid! you are too good to speak the language of torturers!
You can insult your main customers six times a day because you are best buzzinezmen in the world!. Customers love a "meneíto" and everybody will kill for buying your stuff made of pure freedom vapour! at any price!.
Independence will raise your economy to the stratosphere like a Winged San Jorge ascending to heaven with a choir of Xavier Cugats playing golden trumpets in the background!. The world will worship you as the first really freemocratic potency in Europe and you are zupaclever and megasmart and have a solid economic plan for the future.
...
That would be better for you?
Lies feel warm?
You seem to be implying that you know more than me by taking the higher road, you dictator! :P
> Trust me, in this case will be war
Sorry, after reading your text the one thing I can't do is to trust you.
> At difference than Norway, there is a silent majority in Catalonia that is fuming.
I would love to see data on that; right now, pro-independence parties are majority in the parliament and have had 10x times the amount of people on the streets (without the need of bringing outsiders). That majority is not silent, is inexistent.
> Now they can't exit home without finding a burning barricade and the pavement vandalised (...)
All that is false. I have multiple friends in Barcelona and protests have been focalized in a small area (spanish police station in Via Layetana).
> It does not really matter because they will not find a local job anymore in the 5000 companies that have quited the area by this permanent climate of confrontation
That is also false. There were some movements of the headquarters address that didn't really affected the business. The part that should be scary to all democrats is how the Spanish government created a law specifically to facilitate this change of address and how the king of Spain started calling companies to do that change.
> The rest of Spain will take some popcorn and enjoy the carnage and backstabbing on TV
This is pretty disgusting and telling.
Spanish democracy is malapportioned: Basically, rural voters get more of a say than urban voters. The pro independent parties have a majority in the Spanish parliament for the same reason that Republicans have a majority in the US Senate: Americans and Spaniards prefer havoc and civil war to democracy, so they'll do everything they can to make sure their parliaments are illegitimate. It's worked for them both before.
This seems often like trying to explain colors to blind people. Even worse, to people that are not blind but refuse to understand even really simple concepts that everybody out of the bubble can see inmediately.
The population in Catalonia is 7,5 millions, and the people that voted independentist parties are 1,6 millions. Have you consider the possibility than not all those "inexistent" people are independentists?.
Lets assume that some strangers would appear at your door requiring politely you to leave your home and work and go away because you aren't in the right kind of thinking and your bloodlines are Spainted. Oh, and you are not a US citizen (or a german citizen, french, whatever...) anymore.
Would you fight back for defending your rights and your home?
If the separatists really expect all this millons of people lowering their head, going to the exile and leaving in peace without a word they are even dumber than they seem. They will wake up and eat them alive.
> protests have been focalized in a small area, a single street...
If you really want to educate yourself, a simple search in youtube will provide you with plenty of data that debunk this idea. Think about it.
> I don't trust you
Good. As I'm just a stranger in internet, this is the right thing to do. By the way, I don't care about who do you trust either, so is not a problem at all. Go out and explore the world by yourself. Cheers.
7.5 million including kids and people who don't vote. 5.5 million people that can vote, ~4.3 that voted (2017 numbers). Over 2 million votes that voted explicitly pro-independence parties [1].
Those are the real numbers.
> Lets assume that some strangers would appear at your door requiring politely you to leave your home and work and go away because you aren't in the right kind of thinking and your bloodlines are Spainted. Oh, and you are not a US citizen (or a german citizen, french, whatever...) anymore.
That's sci-fi. It hasn't happen. It won't happen. If Catalonia would become independent, why would they kick anybody out?
> If you really want to educate yourself, a simple search in youtube will provide you with plenty of data that debunk this idea. Think about it.
Go to Barcelona, report back if that's a war zone or not. The problems/fires have been extremely focalized.
Because is easy to see that they wouldn't tolerate anything remotely "spanish" tomorrow in their cuckoopia and nobody would stop them to continue to make the life impossible to this people and increase the pressure until they go away, (except a resistance movement).
The rest of us know that you permit democratic expression so that the force is spent at a ballot box. Most people don't want needless change (in fact, the countries first used referendums used them precisely to prevent change).
If Catalonia had've been permitted to vote in a fair referendum, it would've been lost 45 to 55 and there would be peace and order in the streets of Barcelona, just like Glasgow.
Instead, the ignoramouses in Madrid thought force was the first choice, and now everyone in Barcelona suffers - those who want change, and those who don't.