Anyone in Spain got any context on TD and the current political context?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Catalan_protests
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Catalan_independence_refe...
Everyone will tell you their side of the story, with half-truths and euphemisms wherever they need them.
Source: I'm Spanish, currently living in Barcelona.
That also infringes Spanish constitution's 2nd art., "the Constitution is fundamented atop the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation".
It's not that they "should have let them vote", it's that they can't, unless the Spanish citizens reform the constitution and remove those articles.
The separatist movement is blocked in that regard, and unless all other UN countries were to recognize Catalonia as an independent state, they are locked in as a "comunidad autonoma" until a constitution reform happens.
Then an illegally-binding referendum was organized by the Catalan government on October 1st, 2017. The result was 90% leaves, but yet again, 43% voter turnout, and there were no democratic guarantees, as some people were caught voting multiple times, the census was obtained illegally, etc.
After that illegal referendum, the Catalan government decided to secede and declare independence. That's why they were prosecuted and recently convicted. Declaring the independence of a part of Spanish sovereign territory is explicitly forbidden under the name of "secession" in Spanish constitution, and because it goes against the nation's own sovereignty it is considered a very serious crime, that's why they were convicted up to 13 years.
From my POV, as a Catalan citizen, this is ordinary application of law, the law that we all agreed upon in the first place, and the riots and violent scenes seen recently are simply caused by a minority of the pro-independent minority which want independence at all costs, and police forces can't allow that, thus, conflict.
It seems as though the Spanish constitution was written for the primacy of a centralized state, rather than federated government down to the individual. I suppose the idea that sovereignty is effectively granted by the central state is a result thereof. Maybe reforming that would be a good first step.
Self-determination is a right you reject when you step foot on Spain (and practically every other country).
We might have to change that, I don't know, but the Spanish constitution is no fascist rule, or else almost all modern democratic states are, too.
It is very complicated.
* Please don’t quote me on this since it’s been 12 years I did constitutional law
I am from Australia. To my best recollection, Australia's constitution never mentions the topic of secession, neither positively or negatively. But, territories of Australia have become independent before. Same is true of United States.
But, some will say a territory is not fully integrated, unlike a state or province, and a state or province would be different.
People say the US constitution doesn't allow secession of a state (as opposed to a territory) without a constitutional amendment. Not directly, but indirectly it does:
1. It is accepted that a territory (as opposed to a state) can secede and become a new country with consent of Congress
2. The US constitution allows a state to surrender some of its territory to the federal government (most obvious case is District of Columbia, but actually a lot of the Midwestern states were formed out of territory originally surrendered by the Eastern states which used to be a lot bigger than they are now)
3. So, a state wishes to secede could surrender all its territory to the federal government, and then Congress allows that territory to become independent.
Objection: States can only surrender some of their territory, not all of it.
Reply: Even if that is true, there is a workaround. Two states are allowed to merge with consent of Congress and their state legislatures. So, seceding state could merge into a neighbouring state, and then the new state would surrender the former territory of the seceding state to the federal government, and then Congress would grant that federal territory independence. (This would of course require the cooperation of a neighbouring state, which might be thought unlikely, but maybe not impossible – the neighbouring state might be pleased to see the seceding state go; the seceding state might sweeten the deal somehow by letting the neighbouring state keep part of its territory.)
Of course, the US Supreme Court might decide this is against the "spirit" of the US constitution. But they aren't compelled to conclude that it is against the letter. Strict constructionism would suggest this would be constitutional.
Congress granting a territory (or state, directly) independence isn't secession, whether or not it is allowed. Secession is unilateral, grants of independence are a different thing.
Madrid insists they couldn't allow Catalonia to become independent even if they wanted to.
Many people in Spain outside of Catalonia are resolutely opposed to Catalan independence, under any circumstances. By contrast, most people in UK outside of Scotland don't really care, and even the vast majority of those opposed to it would be willing to accept it if a referendum voted in favour. (Even those opposed to a second independence referendum, their argument is "too soon" rather than "never again"). In this regard, Spain is culturally more like China than the UK – pro-Beijing people get terribly upset at the idea of any territory claimed by the PRC ever becoming independent of it.
Which may or may not be a correct interpretation of the Spanish Constitution, but what the US Constitution does or does not allow regarding either secession or Congressional grants of independence is not really germane one way or another. They aren't even products of the same legal tradition such that analysis of one might be illuminating on the other.
So the question of what other countries' constitutions allow is relevant to the debate.
And the comment I was initially responding to was suggesting that the UK could only allow Scotland the choice of independence because it has an unwritten constitution. Explaining how other country's written constitutions could allow grants of independence to parts of the country is a relevant response.
You will read several comments here saying similar things (I have read something like that this constitution was only voted because the only other option was another war), but it is simply not true, as you can easily check in any independent source.
If a dictatorship offers people democracy on its terms, people will accept it. But, was their choice really free? Would they have agreed to the same terms if the threat of dictatorship wasn't there? (1978 was only three years after Franco died, Spanish democracy was very young, and it was entirely believable in 1978 that it might not have lasted.)
Ultimately we need to answer one question: is the current Spanish Constitution democratic or not? if it is, it does not matter how it came to be. Any changes could be done by a democratic process. If it is not, then all the Spanish citizens are affected and a whole new constitutive process is needed where all the citizens vote, not only Catalans.
I expect in vast majority of cases of gaining independence from a country with existing constitution it wasn't something along the lines of: "OK, so you want independence? Fine, just wait a bit until we change the constitution". Then again, and sadly, it probably wasn't happening without violence either.
Here's a list of unilateral declarations of independence, some more successful than others:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unilateral_declaration_of_inde...
And let's not forget that a lot of cases of gaining independence happened after someone lost a war. Maybe let's not go there?
The Spanish central government and court system didn't have to try to physically stop the referendum. They could have just declared it illegal but then ignored it rather than seeking to physically prevent it. They could have followed the same approach as Iraq. They chose not to. Likewise, rather than imprisoning those who declared unilateral independence, they could have just declared the act legally void and then pretended it never happened.
Governments (and judicial systems) always have discretion about enforcing the law. A wise government knows when to step back. A foolish government demands it be enforced 100% of the time. (And I guarantee you, that there will be other issues, on which the Spanish government and judiciary make no such demand for 100% enforcement – prosecutorial discretion exists in every country, Spain included.)
On the other hand if you say that someone was arrested for arson, assault, or unauthorized possession or explosives then some objective reasoning can sort things out rather than having to fall back on an endlessly subjective debate of what is or isn't terrorism.
The phrase "hate crime" is another example of this problem. Someone being arrested for assault is pretty straightforward to investigate and adjudicate. If you also want the police to make some additional determination as to their motive and thoughts in order to make it a "hate crime" then everything is much more complicated. How about just punish appropriately for the assault and move on.
Note, I'm just talking about the use of language here, not trying to discern who are the bad guys in this particular dispute.
They managed to close the access to Barcelona airport and disturb the lives of thousands of individuals, and their plan is to continue doing so in an anonymous and unaccountable way.
Spanish government on the other side, it's trying to find who is behind this network, and making some bold moves, not because their effectiveness, but more to say that it's doing something instead of sitting idle.
I mean, the politicians who tried to do this in an eponymous and accountable way got prison sentences, so...
They did vote for it, and pro-independence political parties failed to win the popular vote in the last democratic election of catalonia in 2017: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Catalan_regional_election
That is, there is no majority of voters in Catalonia that want independence, according to the last election.
Failing to win the popular vote, all independence parties left any ideological differences aside and united forces to obtain majority in the parliament, using that majority to push for an illegal referendum that most of the population in Catalonia didn't took seriously. They then tried to used the results of the illegal referendum, where mostly only those citizens pro-independence went to vote to try to push for independence, ignoring the will of the 53% of the voters that voted against them in the last democratic election.
All in all, a pretty good shit-show, that has resulted in a couple of politicians accused of treason and in jail or in exile.
IMO the worst parts of this are that (1) ~50% of the population has a different opinion than the other 50%, and they will need to manage to live together independently of how things turn out, and (2) Catalonia's politicians do not care about their constituents, and only appear to care about those constituents that voted for them. I personally think that's pretty shameful, and don't have any respect for any of the politicians on either side.
Indeed, but I didn't say "a majority". This is exactly why I said "remain" would have won, Spain could have ruled it void anyway, and everyone would have been happy.
This would have sent the message that it is ok for public servants to ignore the will of half the people they are responsible for, and that they are above the law.
That's a dangerous message to send.
What was stupid was sending the police against the voters. That was completely unnecessary and gave the independence movement a lot of "legitimacy" in the international community.
They should just have arrested the organizers of the referendum on that same day and call it a day. Instead, they let them flee to brussels.
That's pretty exactly the UK/Brexit problem as well. :(
You could literally s/Catalonia/UK/g and have the sentence be 100% valid for the UK too. :)
If this is a common sentiment in Spain on how to resolve such issues, I wouldn't call it a democracy. The UK has many problems, but it handled the Scottish referendum much better.
If you think that not allowing a minority to impose their ideas on a majority is not democratic, then I do not know what democracy is.
[1] This report is by the (independentist) government of Catalonia, and clearly says that according to their polls less than 44% wants to leave and more than 48% wants to stay in Spain: http://icps.cat/archivos/sondeigs/dossiersc2019cat.pdf?noga=...