https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Catalan_independence_refe...
The last wave from the Centre d'Studis d'Opinió from the Generalitat (Local Government), measures support for independence at 44% vs 48% who wish to remain part of Spain.
http://www.rtve.es/contenidos/documentos/barometro_ceo_julio...
48>40
So from far away, I would question the neutrality of the Centre d'Studis d'Opinió.
Also, if the numbers are right, then why on earth does the spanish government escalate and not just let them have a referendum which fails and have peace afterwards?
They are the "Department of Statistics" of Catalonia, and they are controlled by the local government (pro-independence), so i am not sure why would they be biased to report lower support than the actual one. Our Constitution does not consider secession of part of a territory. To hold a referendum, they will have to change the constitution first, which is unlikely to happen in the short term.
Also, I am not sure that a referèndum is the best way to settle this conflict. I think that other options that can gather the support of more than 50% of the population would offer a better solution. (i.e., how do you build a new country when half of the population feels strongly about it?)
this is exactly the current situation with spain! About half of catalans feel very strongly against the spanish state. This is obviously not sustainable. But the spaniards prefer to bully the catalans, to earn votes elsewhere, than to solve the problem once and for all by holding a binding independence referendum.
I for one couldn't care less anymore about the spanish position. I do not consider spain a legitimate state, and we will have to free ourselves from it by any means necessary.
Brexit would like a word with you.
Support for independence and voting share of parties supporting Catalan independence are two different things. Heavily correlated, sure, but not equivalent.
Spanish Constitution does not allow regions (Autonomous Communities in Spain's legal jargon) to make referendums. What's the issue here?
To achieve it though they will have to convince the whole world that it is true and more important then anyone's relationship with Spain
I'm sure there are more; these are just three I'm familiar with.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Sovereignty_referendu...
About Flakland Islands I don't know, so I don't have an opinion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Falkland_Islands_sovereig...
> Do you think that USA would allow Texas or Lakota Nation to secede?
I think Symbiote was using Scotland as an example to prove that this wasn’t out of the question.
a lot depends on the outcome. you can bet that the british empire didn't "let" the colonies secede, but they did anyway, persevered, and eventually the british "let them" by way of not pursuing the war.
and so, here we are. the same could happen with spain, or a state in the US, or w/e. winners tend to write the history books, as well as perspective on past events.
there is no way you can present holding a controversial referendum as worthy of a jail sentence at all, let alone 15 years. "broke the law"... i mean, crossing the street when the light is red is "breaking the law". buying weed is "breaking the law".
it is a provocative heavy-handed foolish move by the Spanish Supreme Court, that will only serve to inflame tensions, as it now provides an air of martyrdom.
it's all thoroughly unnecessary and gratuitous. it would be enough to say "well that referendum result doesn't count, sorry. nope." and you'd have a bit of protest and another "illegal" referendum every few years, but you wouldn't be feeding the popularity of the Catalonian independence movement.
it was a stupid move. hubris appears unattractive to the global lens.
mind you, I couldn't have given 2 hoots about any of this, just reporting on how it appears on the world stage.
So yes: it actually was a case of stealing millions.
In other words, laws are not necessarily holy, just because they are laws.
No matter how many times this was repeated it feels still relevant to explain it; cows do not fly and 1,6 millions is neither the 90% of 46,7 millions, nor the 43% of 46,7 millions.
It certainly raises some doubts
Organized themselves to create non-stop disturbes, block repeatedly several main roads, attack systematically police (to the point of almost killing a policeman and hurting thousands), burn cars and bikes, and creating damages only to the street furniture in Barcelona valued in 3,5 Million euro. The aditional damage to the economy and tourism has been estimated in more than three hundreds millions euro lost.
I would love to hear your definion of terrorism. Must be a very interesting one.
This does not change the fact that the massive surveillance that the government is announcing, has never happened before, sets a very dark precedent, has surpassed all reasonable limits and is an error. The secret services must be running wild and at full power without nobody trying to stop them
Peaceful demonstrations were also organized, and there’s no ex ante way with this system to target the violations to perpetrators (or to set up any judicial safety check, although in Spain I’m told that would not make much of a difference).
Spain keeps crossing all of the red lines we have set as europeans, and yet our governments will do nothing because they want to avoid troubling the euro even more. This is a recipe for disaster if I ever saw one.
If you are told that, is simple. You are being lied (and pretty gullible).
Lied by the same people that keep repeating "Spain is baaad!, baaad!, baaah!, baaah!, baaah!".
Okay, Lets talk about judicial safety procedures. The entire trial was public, transparent, broadcasted in direct on TV, and can be watched in internet if you want to freely make your own opinion (and die of boredom). The sentence was justified in 493 pages that you can also read in this link, because... surprise! we, the PIGS, had the same ancient laws than in the rest of the stupendous Europe. We adopted this laws earlier in fact and Roman law is still studied and relevant for lawyers.
https://estaticos.elperiodico.com/resources/pdf/7/9/15711356...
Please read it, watch it, explore the truth by yourself and don't hesitate to tell me if you find that there was something pigilesque and "uneuropean" here and in what part this people did not enjoyed the right of defense and a fair trial.
> Peaceful demonstrations were also organized
Oh, then is all fine. Lets continue this Anschluss and burn the city
Maybe I’m being lied, and maybe I’m too gullible, but it’s a hard sell to say that everything is fine and dandy on Spain.
Just this year you had quite a scandal with the supreme court changing a decision about mortgage taxes by quite a margin. Not forget that your current foreign affairs minister got caught red handed trading with inside information, something that warrants jail in all other western countries.
There is discussion but let us keep it honest.
In Spain it is legal to want independence, it is legal to create political parties that go for it, legally, BUT it is not legal to go against the law.
Creating a referendum is not legal because in Spain the sovereignty is in the general Spanish population, not in the local population.
This is not Scotland, Catalonia has never been a sovereign state that decided to join a union preserving its sovereignty. Spain was created as the union(by marriage) of the reigns of Castilla and Aragón, that included Catalonia.
The secesionist organized a referendum and they themselves counted the votes, like Stalin said it is not important who votes but who counted the votes. They added a million to the real number.
The local population holds over 50% of secessionist votes.
BTW the joke of gobertment that Spain has given the Catalan local Government(managed by secessionist!!) the management of prisons there. So they will be released soon after the elections, because the president is there thanks to the support of secessionists.
That's not what happened with Scotland.