Lawmakers ask US intelligence chief to investigate TikTok | Hacker News Reader

Lawmakers ask US intelligence chief to investigate TikTok

techcrunch.com

74 pointszachguo65 comments

> But the lawmakers say because TikTok is owned by a Beijing-based company, it could be compelled by the Chinese government to turn over user data — such as location data, cookies, metadata and more — even if it’s stored on servers it owns in the United States.

An analogy: To protect data from potential acquirement by the US government, EU should shut out Google from Europe? This doesn't make sense and is completely political. Watching politicians trying to gain brownie points and _sound like they care_ while not actually doing anything useful hurts my eyes.

It makes perfect sense with the way business works in 2019. Regulatory capture means big players in a given country want lawmakers to attack foreign (and local) competition, and the lawmakers are happy to do it because it pays off. The fact that Chinese competition is Politically Threatening just makes it easier to convince lawmakers to act.

Foreign countries will exercise their control over local companies and subsidiaries (for population control, for tax revenues, and for corrupt personal gains to politicians) just like we do, and will tap into any data they can for political advantage.

All the big countries want control over data, which means they want services to be operated by local subsidiaries or want the foreign companies to be subject to local laws. Their uses for the data may vary and the other demands they make may vary but in the end all of these big capitalist societies (even the ones pretending to be communist or whatever) function the same way: The people with money control the system in order to make more money.

Even before TikTok was being attacked as an arm of a foreign surveillance state, Huawei was being targeted the same way (rightly or not - probably correct). This framing is a success with the general public as well, and is currently being deployed against international gaming companies like Blizzard, Epic and Riot based on their Chinese (Tencent) ownership stakes, even if they're based in the US.

>and is currently being deployed against international gaming companies like Blizzard, Epic and Riot based on their Chinese (Tencent) ownership stakes, even if they're based in the US.

Blizzard didn't exactly get called into question out of the blue. The criticism against them was explicitly the result of their actions.

TikTok is under scrutiny lately in part because of their heavy moderation of content considered objectionable by Chinese regulators. It's shown up in various news stories.

I'm not sure which laws they're basing this on, but it's not unusual to see countries differently. For example UK's DPA allows storing data in countries with similar protection guarantees. I would expect that doesn't include China, but does include Germany.

US will have more or less trust in each country.

> I'm not sure which laws they're basing this on, but it's not unusual to see countries differently. For example UK's DPA allows storing data in countries with similar protection guarantees. I would expect that doesn't include China, but does include Germany.

It's not the ICO that sets that rule, it's the GDPR (and prior to that, the Data Protection Directive)

The EU does put restrictions on how Google handles European data.

Didn't stop the court case of US government wanting data from Microsoft Ireland and trying to force Microsoft US, the parent company, to get it from them by saying they have jurisdiction on any data owned by subsidiaries of companies they have direct jurisdiction on.

So in a way this is us politician saying "we do that already, so China will probably do it too".

> Didn't stop the court case of US government wanting data from Microsoft Ireland and trying to force Microsoft US, (empahsis added)

The trying to bit is important. The US tried to compel Microsoft to hand over data, and Microsoft went to the US courts and (we think) prevented it. MS can now go to European governments and say that both willing and able obey the European law in this regard.

Now this might not be true. Perhaps the US Govt. has used its leverage to force MS to MS slyly leak the data anyway. And perhaps European governments are quietly doing the same. But if the rule of law is uncertain restraint on western governments, it is no restraint at all on the Chinese government. A company straightforwardly will be compelled to hand info over to the Chinese government, and Chinese courts will not even consider trying to stop it.

Comparing the EU to China's government isn't exactly an apples to apples comparison.

I find it very intriguing and fascinating the market penetration speed tiktok had:

- developed in 200 days

- launched in September 2016 in China

- launched in September 2017 internationally

- in November 2017 it's parent company spends up to $1 billion to acquire musical.ly.

- it presently has over 500 million MAU users (I think it has them for over a year now, but I'm on mobile and can't find a source for this claim)

How do you think it's possible for an app appearing seemingly out of the blue to move so fast in such a crowded and mature market like social media?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TikTok

> How do you think it's possible for an app appearing seemingly out of the blue to move so fast in such a crowded and mature market like social media?

I'm not sure if you're on Snapchat or Instagram, but they aggressively advertise (I see dozens of TikTok ads a day). Basically, they're burning money.

It's definitely not sustainable.

I am thinking rather in the context of google plus for example: they had the money to promote it and the channels to do it and still they had to close it.

Throwing money at a problem doesn't always solve it. Not wanting to sound conspirational, but there's got to be more than huge piles of money behind tiktok.

The average time spent in front of artwork at a museum is 8 seconds.

Maybe this is the attention span of people in leisure?

it took up the vacuum left by vine and inherited the musical.ly users

Why Twitter killed vine will forever be a frustrating mystery to me

Because the people at the head of Twitter have no idea what to do with a social network or why it work (or doesn't)? It's not like their handling of Twitter itself is much better...

I agree with the other responses to your post. As a younger millenial that is on other social media apps, I saw tiktok as soon as it launched and have seen the aggressive marketing. Contrary to your point, I'm a little surprised it took so long for the MSM and old people to figure out what was going on. There's real money in being young and in-touch.

It's not that surprising to me. China was a perfect launch market - huge internet population, nationalistic preference for Chinese products (including software), Great Firewall on YouTube and Facebook, etc.

Meanwhile, for their international launch they've been able to burn a stupid amount of investor cash where most US VCs wouldn't touch streaming video in a big way with a ten foot pole because the economics have been so bad historically.

Just curious, do you consider the US to have a nationalistic preference for US products?

Depends who you talk to, but generally no.

I find that hard to believe. US consumers overwhelmingly favour Apple compared to the rest of the world.

You’re not wrong exactly but it’s not to the same extent. Especially for software. The example is TikTok’s success. And a European or north or south American app wouldn’t get the same scrutiny we’re seeing here.

I don't find it remotely hard to believe, and I don't think this is a good example. US consumers have more disposable income and are more aggressively advertised to than the rest of the world. Apple historically has done an amazing job of advertising their products as the top of the line, premium option. It's certainly the most expensive (usually). If Apple was based in Korea along with Samsung, I doubt they'd suffer much if any loss to their market share in America.

Are you American? I suspect either you're not, or we live in very different parts of the country. I do believe that most Americans would say that they prefer American made over otherwise, but I don't believe more than a small subset actually stick to that when making purchasing decisions unless American made vs Non-American made is the only difference between two choices, which is rare.

Edit: It's late and I'm tired so perhaps I'm missing something, but looking at this [1], I'm not really seeing any data to back up the statement that America "overwhelmingly favour[s] Apple compared to the rest of the world." UK, Canada, Norway, Ireland, Denmark are all at similar levels of iOS adoption compared to the US, and Japan is far higher. At a glance, I'd guess that iOS adoption is pretty correlated with a country's economy. The least popular places for iOS are Argentina, Brazil, Colombia, Egypt, India, Indonesia, Malaysia, Ukraine, South Africa.

[1] https://deviceatlas.com/blog/android-v-ios-market-share

LG, Lenovo, Samsung, Spotify, Sony, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Subaru, Audi, BMW, Volkswagen, Louis Vuitton, Hermès, H&M, L’Oreal, Zara, Gucci, Nescafé, Nestle, IKEA are also big brands here. Then there’s all the crap we buy from China. All the clothes we’re getting from places like Honduras, Burma, India, Vietnam.

Much of the rest of the world also favors US software from Microsoft and Google.

Apple is just one company. Some American switching from a Mac is just as likely to buy a Microsoft or Dell product, or even a Lenovo, running American software. Or if they switch from an iPhone to a Samsung, Sony, LG, or OnePlus phone, it is likely running American software.

Do we have a nationalistic preference for buying our own products? I think the answer is some of us and sometimes. If it were pervasive or strongly held, companies like Toyota or Honda or Sony would never have made inroads here in the first place. I think on average, when we buy an American product, it’s because we like the American product more on its own merits. That’s why Japanese car companies can so thoroughly dominate the market for sedans while Ford and GM can so thoroughly dominate the market for trucks.

The majority of the world is more price sensitive. North Americans are willing and able to pay premium prices.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/283334/average-smartphon...

...what? Almost all luxury goods that are prized are foreign-touched in some way. Cars, jewelry, exotics...

> US consumers overwhelmingly favour Apple compared to the rest of the world

Similar story with Xbox vs the far more globally popular PlayStation video game consoles.

There is a difference between a strong preference for US products and a nationalistic preference for US products. A strong preference for US products may come from US companies just understanding the market better. But I don't think that outside of some consumers with their cars and motorcycles, there is a strong desire to "Buy American" and support a product specifically because it is American.

It is generally pretty easy to figure out if you are talking to someone from the US because they so readily and zealously advertise US-based products (Netflix, Amazon/AWS, Apple, etc).

But not because they're US products (not consciously at least).

For an outside observer it is not clear that this is the case.

Depends heavily on the market segment and type of product we're talking about. A lot of Americans really love their Japanese cars and electronics, for example, or even swear by European firearms (and luxury goods, of course). On the other hand, there's definitely a preference for "Made in the USA" products in things like tools and trucks.

On the software side it's kind of hard to say for certain because so much of the software world started in the US before being replicated elsewhere so is it nationalistic preference or just first-mover preference? I'm not sure. But I am pretty sure it's not even close to the same level as in China.

I have no reason for this other than the way you phrased it inspiring it but I wonder if there's a class divide on this...

> How do you think it's possible for an app appearing seemingly out of the blue to move so fast in such a crowded and mature market like social media?

Occam's razor: It provided what people wanted.

> How do you think it's possible for an app appearing seemingly out of the blue to move so fast in such a crowded and mature market like social media?

Has anyone in this thread actually spent time watching Tim Tok videos and using the app?

It’s completely addictive, the content and dynamics of the app are great. It’s a really solid product and it’s not confusing why all the kids like it.

I mean I am totally open to the idea that there’s lots more going on and it’s a nuanced situation. But let’s start with the basic facts, it’s not confusing why it’s a giant hit.

And it fills a niche that previously had other offerings in it, but that have since disappeared.

> Has anyone in this thread actually spent time watching Tim Tok videos and using the app?

I just looked at what's trending [1]. It's like Facebook on steroids, teenagers posting 10 second videos of me me me. The only thing you learn watching TikTok videos is how to get people's attention with 10 second videos.

[1] https://www.tiktok.com/trending

TikTok is the first app where AI is the product. https://a16z.com/2018/12/03/when-ai-is-the-product-the-rise-...

What's the Chinese Govt response to social media engament optimizing/addictive apps been?

Do they recognize the dangers? Is there a digital well being movement happening?

There are some interesting results if you check the Google Analytics ID of TikTok.

They seem to also manage a somewhat sizable portfolio of gambling sites, sites selling knockoff Sports Jerseys, and adult videotube sites.

I am counting about 45 sites right now for UA-75850242.

Many Chinese sites seem to operate like this. I believe Huawei has about 500 completely unrelated sites.

A sort of SFW “soft core” example of this would be yoma202.com [1] which is also used to manage huaweimarine.com. Please note that Huawei and Huawei Marine separated about 6 months ago technically.

[1] http://yoma202.com

Is it possible they're just sharing source and not changing the id?

That doesn't actually mean anything. Every large site will have it's UA number copied by random spammers, often in Russia.

I've never figured out the motivation, but I've seen it a number of times.

I think you make a valid point that also is the most plausible argument I’ve heard. Except though if I do this exercise for USA sites, I don’t see the same thing. My guess though is that the USA sites are maybe just more aggressive about filing abuse claims to the registrar?

late to this discussion, but in terms of using Google Analytics, you can whitelist specific domains if someone is copying your UA code and sending your instance data. Most implementations are set up this way from the start so you don't even need to notice someone is attempting to poison your data.

One of the reasons this is done is to generate referrer spam, which is a really niche way to get the analysts who are looking at the data in GA to see their ads. I'm sure there are other reasons folks do this, perhaps there's a UA- code factor into PageRank/Google rankings that spammers picked up on, I can think of a lot of other creative reasons.

That said, it's pretty curious that there are a lot of sites using it, you might do well to see if you can intercept some mobile app data to see if any other apps are also using the UA tag of TikTok.

There are other things you could look at in terms of how they implement the actual tracking in GA, if the tracking calls look pretty similar but aren't just a carbon copy, it could be more intentional.

Nah, those are just some crappy sites made from copy-n-pasting source code from everywhere.

Forget the national security concerns (though they could well be valid, would not be surprised if so) ... what about the potential for child exploitation? The softporn/borderline actual porn that children are allowed to post of themselves to be viewed by anybody? It amazes me that very little has been said about this in the mainstream press. Just do a YouTube search for "hottest tiktok videos" and convince yourself that child predators aren't using this platform. Some YouTuber did a big "expose" of this a while back and had his video deleted (and then reinstated?), typical YouTube drama etc. but it was quite eye opening. I would never allow my children anywhere near such a platform.

Is there a reason this gives different impression than "hottest vine videos"? Was vine curated differently?

I think a huge part of it is that music videos in general are highly sexualised. Vine isn't about just music videos, you can post whatever. TikTok is specifically for music videos, so kids will see popular music videos where celebs are scantily dressed or whatever, and then emulate it. And then other kids come along and see what their friends are posting and want to do it too, and the cycle just continues. Add to that the fact it isn't US based (and so probably isn't moderated as heavily) and you get what we have now.

edit: confused by the down votes. Not sure what is being disagreed with? Miley cyrus wearing so little you can see her bum cheeks is what I'd consider sexualised. Maybe you don't? Do you think it's okay for 12 year olds to be posting that on TikTok? Am I just a prude?

I saw nothing remarkable at all for your search term.

Well, it isn't something I search regularly so perhaps not accurate. Or perhaps YouTube has started removing some videos? I remember seeing a lot of fuss made about this in the YouTube community about a year ago. At work now and not really keen to add that search to my history, but might see if anything has changed later.

I'm confused by people today in general. On one hand side, yes... tiktok videos seem to be full of highly sexualised teens, which they may regret later. On the other, is it that much worse than what you find by searching for "kids ballet" on YouTube (approved and posted by their parents and teachers)?

Tiktok seems like an enabler, but it doesn't look like the reason videos like that exist. I wish this wasn't really want the prude part, but about: should those videos be globally available forever without teens understanding the issue with that.

There's also the problem of TikTok's home-grown toxic culture.

There was an article last year in one of the Hong Kong publications (HKFP, maybe) about how children will post TikTok videos of themselves doing things like jumping in front of buses, and threatening to kill themselves if they don't get x number of likes.

> the lawmakers asked the acting director of national intelligence Joseph Maguire if the app maker could be compelled to turn Americans’ data over to the Chinese authorities.

> Both Schumer and Cotton warn that TikTok’s parent company, ByteDance, is “still required to adhere” to Chinese law.

I'm surprised if there are many TikTok users in the US.

What is the draw of that app? The description on Wikipedia says is it is for "markets outside China" but all the content I see upvoted on reddit appears to be from China. Do they just take the popular videos from China's version (that the West has never seen) and inject them into TikTok, making TikTok appear to be popular/high quality?

>>I'm surprised if there are many TikTok users in the US.

Tiktok is

#1 in social category in US on Google Play.

#1 in Entertainment in US on Apple App Store.

Does that surprise you?

I'm not surprised, and I don't think many people look to those rankings as good proxies for innovative software.

They just show what's popular, not what's hip. Being part of the borg is not enviable.

If you haven’t noticed (because you don’t use it or whatever), they are burning money aggressively advertising on Snapchat. Add to that the fact that it filled the void left by Vine.

There was just an article about how U.S. high school students are forming TikTok clubs:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/19/style/high-school-tiktok-...

Good for them. If I were a parent, I might ask my kid why a Chinese-made app does not allow content made in China to be viewed in the US (and allow communication with its original author), or vice versa.

I realize not every parent will attempt to have this conversation with their kids, and that's fine. For me, it's about discovering history and determining what we value.

The stridency with which you make factually incorrect claims that can be invalidated with a single Google Search is some witches' brew of impressive and disturbing.

OT: The other day in one of Europe's biggest consumer electronics retail chain (MediaMarkt):

Why does Huawei has 3x more showroom space than all other smartphones manufacturers together, right in front of the entrance and this in every MediaMarkt? No other brand has such a setup.

The US is the only country trying to interfere and seeing potential and bigger threats.

Is your argument that because Huawei spends more money on marketing at Mediamarkt than other companies it must be evil? I've seen the exact same for Apple products at Mediamarkt, where it in one case even had its own floor.

MediaMarkt in the Netherlands has a its own Samsung and Apple sections complete with personel. The Huawei section isn't really that big in the stores I've been in. Unless it massively changed in the past 2 months.

> Why does Huawei has 3x more showroom space than all other smartphones manufacturers together, right in front of the entrance and this in every MediaMarkt?

Where have you seen this? I bought a phone at MediaMarkt yesterday in NRW and I haven't seen anything close to what you describe. I would put them head-to-head with Samsung, which sounds reasonable for a brand this big. But "3x more showroom that all other manufacturers together" feels a bit too much.

In cases such as these it really isn't useful to just name a company and not a location, because MediaMarkt is not homogenous. There can be and are big differences between separate stores and that makes your anecdotal report really weird for everyone that doesn't shop at the store that you do.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com