The empty seat on a crowded Japanese train | Hacker News Reader

The empty seat on a crowded Japanese train

japantimes.co.jp

74 pointsbrandonlc91 comments

I experience this empty seat phenomenon in America, as a regular white man. I noticed it in college. Nobody would sit by me unless they had to, but they were never obvious about it either as far as I could tell. It just seemed like I had some social forcefield around me that pushed people away.

I told me wife about it, and we had a laugh. But over the years it continues to manifest itself. I send me wife pictures of me at a full conference with empty seats only around me. I set up experiments to test my theory. At the airport, or even at work, I will deliberately sit in a middle section that would force people to sit next to me. Yet time after time, the seats next to me are the very last to be taken, if at all. I've tried being extra approachable (smile a lot), dull, aloof, be on or off my phone, etc.

I am a good looking skinny guy who has excellent hygiene. But I have some negative social forcefield I can't explain.

I've read that in body-language terms, sitting in the middle seat of a small row of seats communicates "I would like to be alone here", whereas sitting in the edges communicates "feel free to sit here". This might have confounded your experiment :)

I don't think this has anything to do with you personally. It's just human nature. Go to a food court in a mall and observe. People will occupy the empty tables first, and only when all empty tables have at least one person sitting, will people start joining strangers at "their" table.

I've lived here for 5 years and it's something that doesn't really bother me a lot. At the very least I'm not getting racial epithets shouted at me which I saw happen to a lot of foreigners (riding public transport) growing up in New Zealand.

This just seems like pure racism to me. I spent 2 weeks in Japan recently, and I took all kinds of trains, from the Shinkansen, to Tokyo metro to random local trains. In various cities and towns. I am, and I look white af. Not even remotely Japanese or even Asian. Not once on my trip did Japanese people "avoid" me or leave an empty seat between us. In fact some of them even slept on my shoulder! The only time there were empty seats was when only a few people were on the train and everyone naturally spreads out.

The only difference I can tell between myself and this guy, is that he's black and I'm white. But we are both distinctly non-Japanese. So again, it just seems like racism to me. I'd be glad to hear why that is not the case though. Let me know what you think.

Nah, it's racism, there's no other explanation. I'm also white and people were not only sitting next to me, but even offering me snacks on intercity trains. Interestingly in my own country people rarely sit next to me unless there's no other seats.

I've been living in Tokyo for quite a bit, I'm married to a Japanese woman. I'm Caucasian, born in Estern Europe.

I just asked my wife about this and she told me that even though it's a stereotype, some westerners have either strong perfume smells or due to their size are very hard to sit next to. So instead of trying to play the lottery when sitting next to a foreigner, they'd rather sit next to a Japanese.

This, obviously, doesn't apply to what they consider attractive foreigners.

This was truly lovely to read. A peek into how cultures change.

He explicity said that nothing changed and that the episode on the train was the rarest of exceptions...

Yeah, that's kind of the point -- cultures change one kid's unsavory attitudes altered at a time.

As a visible minority in Japan, experiences like this are extremely commonplace. In fact, I think the frequency is the most troublesome part.

Every time you step out of the house there is someone there to remind you you are foreign. Just moments ago I bought some donuts and the woman in the shop awkwardly gestured at me instead of speaking to me.

Obviously, this is not the end of the world and it's nothing to lose sleep over but I would advise people thinking of coming to live in Japan that attitudes and norms around race are quite different.

> Every time you step out of the house there is someone there to remind you you are foreign.

In my 2+ years here, I think I can count these cases on one hand. I think you may be picking out things that aren't actually unique to you being a foreigner, or your body language is just making it look like you're completely oblivious to what is going on in the interaction so they feel the need to make the communication extra clear.

I'm not doubting you, but I find it genuinely puzzling how our experiences can be so different.

For me, being treated differently to Japanese looking people is just the norm. At first I assumed it was my Japanese level or some other feature, but I think you can't ignore the obvious difference. The other thing that sealed the deal in my mind is how I get spoken to very differently on the telephone compared to face-to-face.

This was a heartwarming story. I might add my own experience as a half Japanese/north European that recently moved to Japa. I've experienced the empty seat thing too, but it's not as bothersome as the people that stand up and move to other seats seconds after you sit next to them in a crowded train, now that makes me nervous. Being a foreigner does come with some perks I sometime envy though. Because I speak the language fluently, and one of my parent being Japanese, I'm sometime just labeled as "a rude person" when I act like a foreigner (where I'm born and raised), while a foreigner would just get a pass as people think "he just don't know how things work around here".

I do feel that too many foreigners (including me) jumps to the "racism" explanation too quickly though. It's not unreasonable because some things, such as finding a apartment as a foreigner are a experience filled with racism. Japan sure don't mind writing racism down on their list of preference. But most Japanese people simply runs on auto-pilot most of the day, and if they see something out of the ordinary (foreigner in the train) they just get really confused and stay away. Giving them a smile and a friendly nod usually lower their alertness pretty well.

I'd never sit in the last or even last 10% or so of seats on a subway train, as a healthy middle-aged man who isn't escorting a child or something. I'd also be highly suspect of a man who did that, and would be reluctant to sit next to him if I were disabled/woman/with-child/etc. Much more so in Japan. The illustration also shows him seated in a 'priority seat' where I'd never sit even if the train were empty. (This might just have been the illustrator, however.)

No/low priority doesn’t mean forbidden. Also, how is a healthy man different than a healthy woman? Both genders have the same ability to stand?

I don't want to sit in a priority seat because some disabled/etc. people (including someone who appears healthy but has some hidden health problem, etc.) has to actually ask you to get up, etc.

Male vs. female is a societal thing. I don't really think younger women should have particular priority in seating, but I'd probably say a middle-aged woman would have reasonable priority over a middle-aged man, all things being equal. There are enough cultures where women > men for this particular issue that I tend to go with it, though.

I did wonder about his needing to sit in a crowded train at all. Maybe he’s passed middle age?

My god, it must be so unpleasant to be the kind of person who thinks about that for the hours necessary to write an essay like the one he wrote ten years ago, and to continue stewing on it for ten years.

I’ve lived in China for more than seven years and I definitely have an empty seat beside me on the metro more often than Chinese people and children and tourists say 老外(foreigner) regularly enough. So what? Life is good. I’m never going to be Chineses, same as he’s never going to be Japanese. If that bugs him why not go home? No one’s making him stay in Japan.

Change the things you can, accept the ones you can’t and if you can’t deal with that get out.

I think when you experience prejudice regarding your race, it’s unfair to characterize that as “stewing”.

Maybe you don’t find this article or his initial piece insightful; that’s fair enough.

But I also think it’s fair of him to shine a light on unfair treatment in the place he lives, without people suggesting - without irony - that he “go home”.

If you spend extensive time reflecting on an injustice you can’t do anything about and that isn’t going to change that is absolutely “stewing”. I know someone who is still bitter at someone years dead and brings them up to bash them regularly. They were wronged and they’re stewing.

The article’s plenty insightful, it provides a wonderful insight into what it’s like to be the author, and secondarily, an aspect of being a foreigner in Japan that obviously really disturbs some.

There’s no need for quotation marks on home in your last paragraph. Mr. McNeil is not attempting to be Japanese. He’s professionally American in Japan. He writes for English language publications, campaigns for American cultural attitudes and despite living in Japan for 15 years and being a writer his Wikipedia page is only in English.

If he’s being treated unfairly there’s no evidence of it in the linked article.

I don't understand the conclusion that just because he wrote a couple of articles about it ten years apart, that he's been constantly stewing on it for that entire time. Maybe it's something that only occurs to him when he's on the train, and even then maybe only sometimes, and maybe - as a writer - he's trained to recognize these transient thoughts and tease them into articles. That's what a lot of these slice-of-life articles are, focusing on moments that would otherwise slip by and escape notice.

In the words of the late Donald Richie: "I would leave Japan if I were Japanese."

But there are endless perspectives on this issue and quite a few have their merits, despite contradicting each other.

FWIW I live in Japan and I get uneasy around foreigners. And I'd be especially uneasy around folks from my home country!

> experience prejudice regarding your race

I think it might be more about culture than race. Race is a good proxy for "not Japanese". While Japan is not 100% ethnically uniform, if someone doesn't look Japanese they are most likely not Japanese.

When I see a foreigner I don't know if they've been in Japan long enough to share the same values, respect the culture, and the rules. Can I trust them the same way I trust the Japanese? Japanese have earned my trust over time. And spending time in Japan has changed me.

But a foreigner?! I don't know where are they from. I don't know what their country is like and I don't know what they are they like.

Japan is probably the safest place in the world (maybe Singapore can compete? But it's so tiny it's not fair competition). The rest of the world feels like a jungle. Full of wonder, yes, but also full of unknown dangers :)

Somewhat ironically, Singapore is one of the most racially and ethnically diverse places in the world, demonstrating that ethnic non-uniformity shouldn't be a proxy for unknown dangers.

Everything can easily be done in a tiny controlled environment! Also Singapore is fairly uniform. There's Malaysian Singaporean part, Indian part and Chinese part. They do not overlap. Everyone stays in their lane!

I don’t disagree that neighborhoods are fairly delineated, but in the context of this article, everyone rides the same MRT lines. They all sit next to each other too!

  if someone doesn't look Japanese they are most likely not Japanese

Like the Ainu?

> Official estimates place the total Ainu population at 25,000, but unofficial estimates place its total population at 200,000

Meanwhile there are 10M people living in Tokyo. If all Ainu people of Japan lived in Tokyo, how likely would it be for me to meet one?

Also, there were 30M visitors to Japan last year.

So if one doesn't know and one is making a guess, what is more likely? Foreign visitor or a member of a tiny local minority?

Wow. This is a truly horrifying attempt to normalize racism. "If you don't like it, just go home." He's been there for a decade. The author likely sees Japan as his home.

The social mechanics of Japan are certainly quirky by western standards, but that doesn't mean that some things aren't universally unacceptable. You might as well say, "If you don't like persecution of gays, stay out of Nigeria." "If you think women should be able to drive, stay out of Saudi Arabia." (recently changed)

As a traveler, and someone that's been to almost 50 countries, I tend to keep my head down and not make waves when I'm out of my the cultures where I feel at home. But that doesn't mean that I can't write about injustices. That's what you're literally saying the author is not entitled to do. After a decade in said country.

> "If you don't like persecution of gays, stay out of Nigeria." "If you think women should be able to drive, stay out of Saudi Arabia." (recently changed)

I mean... yes? I cannot recommend living in either country as a member of one of those groups. Nor can I really understand the egocentric view that if you voluntarily choose to move to a new country that country's culture should change as to be comfortable for you.

We should let people that brave it, comment on it without being told they shouldn’t be there by people who aren’t there.

Commenting on it is critical. Commentary can spark a change in ideas and attitudes for the better.

HN crowd always go to the pragmatic.

But what about big ideas? Big change? Can we support people that are pursuing that without zooming immediately into technicalities?

Probably not. But I hope.

It is definitely acceptable to comment on his experience -- and I think it was a fascinating read -- but I'm mostly reacting to the idea that accepting it as a facet of Japanese society is normalizing racism.

“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”

― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

"But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." - Carl Sagan

If you feel like going on a one man crusade to change the world is what you want to do with your life go for it. If you want admiration for it make sure you win.

Out of curiosity, would you be ok with someone telling a non-us citizen black man in the US "If you don't like people acting racist toward you, go back where you came from"? That is fairly widely considered inappropriate in the US (though not universally).

The US is pretty much the other extreme from homogenous country/society. Regardless of one's answer to your question, you are gonna need to pick a different country name in it to have any kind of comparison to Japan

It's rude to say that to someone, but as a foreigner if you can't come to terms with the face that you ARE an outsider, leaving's your only alternative (America's pretty diverse so eventually anyone can become a local, but in many places the visual difference will always set you apart).

I've been the foreigner before and there's a big gap between not being treated like a local and being actively encouraged to leave.

It’s still racism even if it’s culturally acceptable.

Is that form of racism still bad if it's culturally accepted? There are places in the world where it is not only culturally but legally encoded that non-natives are second class citizens. Should those places be denied the opportunity to self-determine that policy?

This is only one facet of a common problem that virtually every people on earth deals with. Is it so hard to acknowledge?

> There are places in the world where it is not only culturally but legally encoded that non-natives are second class citizens.

Hell, in Israel you can even be a native and be a second class citizen. I wouldn’t look to these countries as role models for human rights, though.

Only if you're treated worse. Which in many places you are not. But you're still not a local.

I think tilting at windmills is a great way to spend precious hours or years of your life to a net negative effect on your life. It may redound to the benefit of other people later but you’ll pay the costs, not them. If that sounds like a good deal to you go for it.

I am personally a big fan of going where I’m wanted and where I feel comfortable rather than trying to change other people.

Out of curiosity, would you be ok with a non-citizen Japanese person lecturing you on why Americans are bad because they don't have the exact same outlook and attitude as Japanese people?

Because that's what the author of this article is doing.

If that outlook is “is it ok to treat this person as a lower class of person”, then you should stand up for your values. Not all cultural relativism must end with blind acceptance.

You're presupposing a lot about the author's situation: maybe he's not in a situation where he can easily leave, or the things he likes about Japan outweigh occasionally being snubbed with an empty seat.

Clearly, he feels like it's just slight background noise in his life, but there's nothing wrong with being little annoyed that he's still being prejudged by the society he's living in after trying to fit in as best he can.

First, having lived in China in different cities and in Japan, the empty seat phenomenon is nowhere as pronounced in China as in Japan. In Japan, you sometimes end up seating next to an empty seat in a packed train, I've rarely seen that in Japan. Yes as foreigners, we are more likely to be seated next to an empty seat in China but once the train is packed, the seat doesn't stay empty.

It's a very different feeling in Japan.

I also rather disagree with the suggestion to get out. Getting out is not always easy and besides that, why should one systematically accept racism? It's ok to complain about it. Doesn't mean that he doesn't find some positive aspects about living in Japan but he has a right to complain about this kind of behavior

Downvoted; the author clearly doesn't have much problem with not be seen as Japanese, he has a problem with being seen as a human being one should not sit next to.

I agree that if the attitudes of people in Japan bother him so much, not clear why he’s staying

Having said that, the phenomenon he describes is pure racism. Not easy to shrug off

I bet I know what will really help "change the things you can". Instead of writing that article about racism for people to read about it and react, and prompt reflection on prejudice in all aspects of life -- you should just shut up and go home. Challenge nothing and no one. Do not stand up for human rights. Object vocally when others do.

> I’m never going to be Chineses, same as he’s never going to be Japanese. If that bugs him why not go home? No one’s making him stay in Japan.

I’m so happy to read this comment. I lived in Japan for 4 years and had the same feeling. People are always upset they’re not seen as Japanese despite the fact they are indeed not Japanese. I could see an argument if you were a child of a western parent, born and raised in Japan with Japanese values constantly having to remind people that you are a Japanese national but these are just foreigners living in Japan with a chip on their shoulder because they weren’t born Japanese.

I hear you, but I also notice how different the expectations and standards are around race in the west. If we transplant some of the things said above into America, I notice I have a very different reaction.

Eg, “[Because he’s not white] he’s never going to be American. If that bugs him, why not go home? Nobody is making him stay in America.”

“[Immigrants] are just foreigners living in America with a chip on their shoulder because they weren’t born American”

(Edit to be really clear I’m not condoning or condemning. Just noticing.)

America actually is unique among countries. I could move to Japan, but I'll never be Japanese; I could also move to Denmark, but I'll never be a Dane. But I moved to America and now I am American.

The vast majority of countries don't work this way, nor would it be better for all of them to. But it's great that at least one does.

> Eg, “[Because he’s not white] he’s never going to be American. If that bugs him, why not go home? Nobody is making him stay in America.”

No, because America is not a racially homogenous society. Japan mostly is. Japan's residents are 98% japanese and most of the other 2% are other asians.

Hm, I’m doing a gut check on that by swapping in another western country which is more racially homogeneous than the US to see how I feel about it:

> “[Because he’s not white] he’s never going to be Norwegian. If that bugs him, why not go home? Nobody is making him stay in Norway.”

My ears still flag that as racist.

Race probably not the issue there, at least not tonthw degree some assume it is. I've seen the very same santiment "you will never be X" from the people which emigrated to the countries where the wast majority is of the same race.

If you happen to be in a visually homogenous society (i.e. rural America, or Japan), you're gonna be treated differently because you stand out.

This common occurrence for American-born children of non-white immigrants in American.

"Where are you from?" "Kansas City" "No, where are you really from?"

This being said, America's had more immigrants come in than Japan, so by collective experience, America should be more open-minded about outsiders than Japan. Which is what we see in big cities like New York.

The same thing is true for anyone in the US though. They always describe themselves as being [insert grandparents’ nationality before coming to the US].

Separate but equal? Or not even equal?

Downvoted; the author clearly doesn't have much problem with not be seen as Japanese, he has a problem with being seen as a human being one should not sit next to.

I see this type of attitude applied to non western countries a lot and I never understood it. It also bothers me a great deal.

I’m ethnically Chinese but have lived in either the US or Canada for most of my life. I’ve been the beneficiary to the changing attitude towards minorities here and have seen how things have changed for the better in my time here.

Imagine if the pervasive attitude has been “You are being discriminated against? So what, life is good here. You are never going to be Canadian / American. If you don’t like it go back to where you came from.”

I’m not a Western Imperialist. I don’t particularly like the way China is run but I’m not under the illusion anyone cares. If you as an American feel like imposing your culture in China by all means go for it but please wait until after I leave.

The opinions of foreigners about a countries internal affairs are relevant insofar as they are backed up by heavy weaponry, except as literary exercises.

No one is talking about imposing anything and certainly not about externally. The article is someone living in japan discussing cultural / racial issues in japan. I’m of the opinion that these things should be raised and discussed instead of just “if you don’t like it go back to where you came from”.

Well they are being discussed by Americans. He reached his intended audience.

Baye McNeil is famous for finding racism where there usually isn't any.

Now you are famous to me for finding absent racism in Baye McNeil. Congrats!

There's always an explanation where the answer is racism, even if it isn't the correct explanation.

Wider than the average Japanese person and crowding the seat(s) next to you? They must not sit next to him because he's black.

You’re really clinging to your “he’s too wide” rationale. Read the article. He’s subject to racism. It’s okay for him to comment on that, and the response over time should be that a society better upholds the idea that each human is equal.

But I’m sure you’re still convinced it’s something to do with the width of the seats.

Only on HN. Honestly.

Sure, Japan is a ~monoracial country and there isn't the level of racial awareness there that you have in the US. I feel like you have to accept some of this if you choose to live in Japan as a person of color.

I experienced this myself when I wanted to do the "teach English abroad for a year" thing in Japan after college. I have Top 1% English skills and have won literary prizes for my writing in college, and speak in a normal American accent that you might find in a news anchor. But everyone wanted a white person.

When people talk about a mono-racial Japan it's worth mentioning that the census data for Japan doesn't record ethnicity. Depending on where the statistics come from data may have been calculated by assuming that everyone with Japanese nationality is ethnically Japanese too.

Japan is also definitely not a monoracial country - people are ignoring for example the Ainu people.

Added a character to clarify.

I think there is a lot of over-interpretation of his. It never seems to happen to me. When you want to be the victim, you might seem to notice it happening. And certainly, there might be some people who don't like foreigners. But as far as I can tell I don't notice it. Perhaps the author has some other features that might make one want to sit beside someone else. The discriminative feature might not him being a foreigner. Furthermore, as a kid I did not like to sit beside foreigners (anyone I did not know) either. I was scared of anyone.

Perhaps, but the discrimination one feels living in Japan is more about the sum total of a bunch of separately innocent actions that, taken together, feel kind of crappy.

I've lived in Japan for about ten years now and certainly sympathize with the author. It's a great place to live, but there are still things that just plain suck about it, too.

It's kind of like this. Imagine, if every time you started a conversation with someone they, just once, wrinkled their nose. If it happened a single time, you might not even notice it, and even if you did it's not really a big deal.

However, after it happens day in and day out with pretty much every person you interact with, it's easy to start doubting yourself, "Am I making a weird face, too? Do I stink? Am I the one causing this for some reason? What's going on?"

The same sort of thing happens with the empty seat. It's relatively harmless as an individual instance. However, after it happens a thousand times, after having anything you share get interpreted, for the thousandth time, as a This Country vs Your Country Compare and Contrast session, after getting ignored in favor of people trying out their English on you for the thousandth time, then it just gets a litte exhausting.

Any of those things is fine in isolation, but the straw that broke the camel's back is the same as the million that didn't.

I just do not understand this mentality. We live in a primarily homogeneous society. There will be friction there. It comes across as overly sensitive.

I've been living in Japan longer than this guy and I can say that these sorts of things happen, but I find it totally ridiculous to get upset about them. If you are angered about the way your are treated, you really should return to your home country.

I say this because the level of self-absorption in this mentality is astounding. People are naturally going tend to feel a range of emotions around a foreigner that they wouldn't feel around someone who looks like them. Rather than being upset or lambasting the Japanese culture for "racism" it is much more productive, I feel, to treat people kindly and let them discover that there really is nothing to fear.

While he did do that with the little girl in the article, he also went ahead and wrote an entire newspaper article that effectively condemns Japan.

The overt cultural aggressiveness that I see dominating the airwaves thanks to websites like twitter more often than not leaves me feeling sick to my stomach: I have no respect for people who feel they have to right to forcefully make someone else do or act a particular way regardless of how "correct" they feel their way is. It is a seat on a train for gods sake.

If you don't like racism, go back to where you came from..?

Are the Japanese also against freedom of speech? Writing an article about racism is not "forcefully" doing anything.

This guy should cash in on the empty seat by having a staged Japanese friend break the ice and sit very conspicuously during his approach and settling in to claim that empty seat. Maybe even with verbal announcements along the way, walking through a crowd from an adjacent car to meander next to the expected to be empty seat. If they could stage cameras about to capture reactions from the crowd that could be slightly entertaining, possibly more.

> verbal announcements

At this point the foreigner is more Japanese than the local friend.

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