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Comment by sreque | Hacker News Reader

Am I the only one that thinks Blizzard is in the right here and they are being made into a scapegoat due to the political climate? Blizzard says "don't talk about divisive things using our tournaments and communication channels." Why can't they be allowed to do so? What would happen to someone if they protested similarly at the Olympics?

If you are really upset about what's happening in Hong Kong, why don't you boycott, I don't know, all of China? But that would take too much effort for most airmchair activists.

Edit: several good responses from people, including links to actual olympics protests, and links to blizzard pushing political agendas.

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> Blizzard is in the right here

I don't believe this, because their knee-jerk reaction to one party doing this was to fine them for $10,000 and ban them from competition for one year, but to another party (with an objectively worse message from Blizzard's point of view) it was "keep going, you're fine." Oh, and the tweet on the official Hearthstone account to reassure the Chinese government and citizens that they will continue to protect Chinese interests.

Fixing it after the fact doesn't change that their initial reaction was fucked up. Even the "fixed" penalty is completely out of proportion with the offense (when compared to other sporting groups that have similar rules).

> Why can't they be allowed to do so?

My personal opionin: Because they are based out of the US, and the US supports free speech enough to bake it into many of our laws. So long as Blizzard takes advantage of US resources to run their business in China, they should espouse many of the same morals as the the US.

> If you are really upset about what's happening in Hong Kong, why don't you boycott, I don't know, all of China?

Why can't someone justifiably do both? Blizzard is supporting China's policies for the opportunity to take advantage of China's mobile market, and Blizzard's support is one (of many) reasons that the US will not use the amount of force necessary to enact changes against China.

> But that would take too much effort for most airmchair activists.

Ad hominim attacks aside, doing things like talking about the protests in Hong Kong, and encouraging companies with ties to China to allow this free speech is doing something.

> So long as Blizzard takes advantage of US resources to run their business in China, they should espouse many of the same morals as the the US.

They also use Chinese resources to run their business (I.e, all the money they make there), it's a real melting pot of morals here.

> Blizzard says "don't talk about divisive things using our tournaments." Why can't they be allowed to do so?

Because they built their entire empire upon appealing to equality/wokeness/justice.

There is a plaque outside Blizzard HQ that reads "Every Voice Matters". That is the foundation of their success. They don't get to yank it back without blowback when the CCP throws some cash at them.

News flash: Every company that says "Every Voice Matters" is only pandering and never sincere. They just want your money. Right now, touchy-feel-good stuff is in vogue.

Yeah but it's a bit hard to run a PR campaign backing off that when you have it engraved on a fcking plaque outside your HQ.

That plaque has done more damage in light of their recent actions than any directed media campaign ever could.

The reason Blizzard is up shit creek without a paddle is because they simultaneously tried to virtue-signal and pander to developed world sensitivities while selling out to CCP for views opposed to those.

Blizzard knows their core audience doesn't care anything about this stuff. Just a few angry people on the internet. Sure, they did some pandering to sucker more people into liking them, but they know who's paying the bills, and it's not the outrage mob.

Ah yeah. That must be why they're on the front page of HN and stuck between a rock and a hard place with having to cancel Blizzcon after Mei became an international pro-HK meme.

Sure. Just like i suspect a lot of people lie, it isn’t really a surprise. But if you get caught in a terrible lie while being hypocritical in public about it, expect to be called out on it.

Then they need to be called on every instance of hypocrisy in word and deed. If every company lies... maybe there's a learning point there.

Huh? The foundation of their success is some excellent video games. I’ve never associated Blizzard with justice or “wokeness,” not that it would be a bad thing to be associated with.

Yeah, whenever I read stuff like that I feel like I've been living in a parallel world. I've always grown up around people who played video games and they've never cared about anything other than the games themselves. They might passively agree or disagree with a company's stance on something but they'll still keep that entirely separate from the games being produced.

I think people could argue that modern Blizzard does specifically lean into being diverse or "woke". Overwatch got a lot of praise on it's release for having such a diverse cast and they have continued to lean into that over the years since. I also think people could argue they started being more inclusive and diverse with some stuff they did in WoW, but I think they really got attention for it starting with Overwatch.

With that said, I kind of agree with you in that the foundation of their success was making fantastic PC games.

Fair enough. Overwatch and WoW happen to be the two Blizzard games I never really got into, so it makes sense that I missed that connotation. I've kept up with the competitive Starcraft 2 scene (mostly in Korea) and I haven't really noticed any association of Blizzard with being particularly concerned with social justice.

They removed Raynor’s cigar in some situations, and removed some skeletons in WoW, both for Chinese audiences.

>Am I the only one that thinks Blizzard is in the right here and they are being made into a scapegoat due to the political climate?

I feel it'd be one thing if they had just asked for no politics to be brought up on their official channels, but based on events that have happened in the past week, it seems quite obvious to me that they're very cozy with the Chinese authorities.

Like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Olympics_Black_Power_salu... ?

>Blizzard says "don't talk about divisive things using our tournaments and communication channels." Why can't they be allowed to do so?

Obviously they ARE allowed to ban people if they want to, but I assume you wonder why people are so upset about it?

The issue is simple: Blizzard has repeatedly allowed (and even endorsed) political statements in similar situations in the past yet decided to ban a player and strip their winnings instead of simply telling them "don't do that again or we will need to ban you".

Their enforcement was extremely selective and, importantly, they were allowing China to dictate what could or could not be said in a game interview that took place OUTSIDE of China.

The Olympics have a long history of protest. As an example... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Olympics_Black_Power_salu...

Using a sport as a platform for protest is very common and has been a positive for the world.

The point wasn't that sport isn't used for protest, but how the people who use their sporting platform to protest are then treated.

The Australian runner on the podium with John Carlos and Tommie Smith in 1968:

> Norman was not selected for the 1972 Summer Olympics, and retired from the sport soon after.

The way Blizzard handled the situation was absolutely tone deaf and seemingly malicious. Of course they are going to be a lightning rod for a greater outrage.

Their PR handling was disastrous (though perhaps forced by the Chinese government [1]), but they're absolutely entitled to not have people hijack their events to spread political messages, regardless of how valid the message may be.

[1] https://twitter.com/Grummz/status/1183215204525412352

Blizzard is perfectly fine with politics if they think it won't hurt their bottom line. They've been fairly supportive of the LTGB movement in their western markets. It's why the statement about China having no influence over their decision is such obvious bullshit.

> Blizzard is perfectly fine with politics if they think it won't hurt their bottom line.

This applies to most business unfortunately.

They totally have that right, and we totally have our right to call them out on that. So they can ban political speech in their events, and according to the Streisand Effect, that is guaranteed to garner them a lot of negative attention, with plenty of people willing to cross their line to make a point.

At anyrate, Blizzard has done a lot for the HK movement since you can’t have civil disobedience without the disobedience. They’ve conveniently provided the context that such disobedience can exist in (and if it wasn’t them, it would be someone else).

China probably didn't force them directly. That's the thing about authoritarianism. You learn what you think the government wants, and you enforce it on yourself, potentially going above and beyond what they'd ever even think of demanding upon you. You stop being willing to say things that are critical of the central government out loud, and eventually you even stop THINKING things that are critical of the central government through practice.

Of course they are. And if everyone wants to protest them because of that, so be it.

This is the thing about the whole "free speech" or "private platform, private rules" debate. You can absolutely do whatever you want, and the entire rest of the world is able to react in whatever way they want. You're allowed to think they're entitled to have a platform they moderate. Other people are allowed to freak the fuck out about the moderation or the behaviors that lead to moderation, or whatever.

This is just a pet peeve discussion point of mine as it feels less about the topic and is often used to just dismiss the discussion outright. "They're allowed to do whatever they want, so please be quiet and sit down" type of thing (not saying you're doing that here).

TL;dr- everything is political to someone, so and common sense is almost always cultural.

I wouldn't want to be responsible for suggesting legitimate protest be quelled, but there's a large, if not super majority proportion of their customerbase that isn't interested in this latest controversy, and would like to see Blizzcon/random eSports tournament without interruption. Blizzard is obligated to that group as much as they are everyone else.

Blizzard isn't obligated to anyone but Blizzard. Isn't that the point of capitalism? They just get to do what they want (assuming it's legal) and "the market" will decide if they're doing the right thing. They could start making pro-nazi propaganda huge part of the WoW experience if they wanted. But the point is that whatever market they choose to service will affect how people feel about them.

Again: they can do whatever they want, but once you've made your bed you need to lie in it. You can't make everyone happy all the time, and that's fine. Some people are always going to think Blizzard is shitty because of this, and will swear off their products. Other people will be pissed for 20 minutes and come back when <dope new game/feature> launches. And other people are just going to be annoyed that corporations are pandering to vocal mobs.

Blizzard don't owe me anything, and I don't owe them anything either. Welcome to capitalism. Good fucking luck, it's terrible out there.

> but they're absolutely entitled

No, they are not entitled to that. No player broke any laws when they did that. It is fully within anyone's legal right to make political statements, and it is fully within consumers legal right to be upset about whatever they want.

I think it is reasonable for them to disallow divisive topics from being discussed. I don't think it is reasonable to take a contestants prize money because they broke that rule, or to fire the interviewers who didn't say anything controversial. And even if it was a perfectly fine thing to do, they are doing it because the Chinese government wants them to, which I don't agree with.

>Blizzard says "don't talk about divisive things using our tournaments and communication channels."

There would probably be less uproar if

a) the rule that he broke was written in a less dumb way or

b) the rule wasn't enforced in an arbitrary and selective fashion

I mentioned this elsewhere, but the guy who said "Free Hong Kong" got a harsher punishment than people who have been caught cheating at Blizzard's tournaments. To me, that says something very sad about Blizzard's priorities. I think if Blizzard had initially given him a more proportionate punishment there would have been much less of an uproar.

You might partly have a point if it wasn't applied so unevenly. If a gamer said "Bernie 2020!" or advocated the free state project, would the same thing happen?

Blizzard wants money and is pandering to the Chinese government. It's not there result of actually caring about that type of rule.

Its hypocritical when they themselves push politicized agenda, (PRIDE month), through the same channels (Overwatch League) that they say need to stay focused on only the games.

> Am I the only one that thinks Blizzard is in the right

No, I think there’s quite a number of people being used to the whole world doing censoring on behalf of China. Status quo is comfy. “It’s been like this for long, nobody is getting hurt, why we should do anything about it”. Heck, I’m sure execs at blizzard are saying right now “everybody has been doing this for so long and nobody cared and now everyone is against us”. But the line has to be put somewhere. “It’s good to be decent”. I wish more people started trying being decent.

And regarding your ending - that must be some kind of a fallacy. Yes, everybody knows it’s impossible to start “boycotting China”. Too much manufacturing being done there etc. But change has to start somewhere.

And the approach “it won’t work anyway so why bother” is simply despicable.

How did you feel about the NFL kneeling situation? I'm not trying to stir anything up, just curious.

Blizzard decided that "free hong kong" was:

"Engaging in any act that, in Blizzard’s sole discretion, brings you into public disrepute, offends a portion or group of the public, or otherwise damages Blizzard image"

I suppose what is offensive is always up for debate, but I don't see any reason there wouldn't be consequences from folks who live in a free society when they see such a light level of speech clamped down on, presumably because on oppressive regime wanted them to.

The internet gaming community is addicted to outrage. This is probably the most substantive outrage of the past few years because there's actual international geopolitics at stake, but the target of ire usually changes month-to-month. Last few months it was Epic, next Month we'll probably be back to EA or Ubisoft, and this saga will fade into the background.

It's almost like we want the world to be a better place!

I'm tempted to agree with you, although in the case of Epic it was about stuff like a Chinese company owning a minority stake, or devs choosing Epic as a launch platform (for actual upfront money).

This time someone on a public American stage was shut down to cater to a foreign, Big Brother-like government. It's a little less forgettable.

> The internet is addicted to outrage.

FTFY

>"don't talk about divisive things using our tournaments and communication channels."

Turn off the mic and switch cameras.

They responded with one year suspension and clawback of winnings.

> Why can't they be allowed to do so?

They are "allowed" to make whatever dumb policies that they want.

And consumers are also equally "allowed" to be upset, to engage in boycotts ,to protest their conventions, and to generally cause as much economic damage as possible.

They are a private company and have every right to do whatever censoring they want.

Players have every right to protest their games because of that decision.

If Activision/Blizzard thinks they can make more money in China than they can in West, then they have absolutely no obligation to listen to what Western players want. That's just capitalism.

Is it dumb for them to do this? Maybe. But they have every right to make that mistake.

Do many people interact with China on a daily/monthly basis?

How do you justify the statement that came from their Chinese subsidiary that states "We will firmly protect the pride of the country!"

They have a right to do whatever they want but we also have a right to do whatever we want including not buying their games.

China's authoritarian government works. And that scares the shit out of the West. But instead of channeling that fear toward some productive outlet, we decided to bury our heads in the sand. Trump is just a symptom. So we continue to let our infrastructure and cities crumble and use the spectre of China to block any useful reform. Freedom!

I believe you're partially correct. Blizzard does go to an effort to keep politics out of the game, and has a history of being fairly impartial about it. You will be banned for having either Trump or Obama in your name, among most other trademarked names[0].

However, the issue most people have with Blizzard is that they didn't ban someone for bringing politics up in game--they banned someone for bringing it up in a Twitch stream--specifically a post match interview[1], or the tournaments and communication channels as you put it. While I think it's fully within Blizzards rights to moderate whatever goes through its servers, I believe banning someone for the content of an in person interview is outside of their purview, and probably touches on a free speech issue or two.

A similar issue/question to this would be "Can the NFL ban kneeling during the national anthem?" The issue of NFL players kneeling before the (American) football games seems very legally similar to Blizzard players mentioning politics outside of actual games, but on a "company" stream.

I tend to err on the side of always allowing peaceful, non-disruptive protest, regardless of who owns the media channel.

[0] https://www.reddit.com/r/Blizzard/comments/82g25i/having_tru...

[1] https://www.businessinsider.com/blizzard-reduces-pro-hong-ko...

1+ billion people in China vs 17 people on the internet boycotting Blizzard? I know which side I'd choose if I was running the company.

Right, because 1 billion in China uses Blizzard products, while in the US it is only 17 people who are paying customers and are outraged.

If those “17 people” in the US bring more revenue than a billion in China, then Blizzard might want to be concerned.

1. China accounts a small fraction of their income

2. The government's demands are only going to get more onerous from here.

3. The Chinese government isn't going to let an American company have open access to their markets for long. I guarantee they have a plan to replace Blizzard (and the NBA and every other foreign company) with domestic companies.

> China accounts a small fraction of their income

100% probability that Blizzard is making more keeping Chinese customers than angering a few angry people on the internet.

> The government's demands are only going to get more onerous from here.

Proof?

> The Chinese government isn't going to let an American company have open access to their markets for long.

I see. "They" have a "plan." Sure. These are just empty words.

The last 20 years are littered with examples of China allowing foreign companies in, forcing them to share IP with domestic partners, and then shutting out those foreign companies once domestic companies no longer need their foreign partners.

There's even huge knockoff Blizzard theme park in China.

It's not some hypothetical concern, it's standard practice. The Chinese market is not a good bet for foreign companies.

>100% probability that Blizzard is making more keeping Chinese customers than angering a few angry people on the internet.

Even if you're right, so what? Is profit the only thing that should motivate us?

The reason people won't boycott China or other companies that are doing far worse than upholding rules agreed to by those breaking them is because it will impact them financially. Blizzard is doing the same thing. They are only doing the same thing everyone else does already.

Case in point: where were these people prior to Blizzard banning the player? They weren't up in arms about companies supporting China. And where is the boycott of Apple and their removal of an app amongst other things (giving the keys to iCloud to the Chinese).

The reality is, while some people might have quit, Blizzard isn't do as much because they probably aren't losing as much. The boycott is coming from people who aren't giving them money. Who are subscribe to their games, or playing Hearthstone. Gamers weren't playing the games before, and boycotting them now means nothing happens.

I'm not suggesting that you can't take a stance, and I'm sure someone will post here how they quit Blizzard games and they were actively playing. Great. And I know someone who started playing WoW Classic while this was going on, so whatever.

Point is, Blizzard isn't doing anything more or less than what people are already doing. If anything, we should be ashamed of ourselves first.

IDK man, I only have so many hours in a day. Saying "why weren't you actively engaged in this cause yesterday" isn't really saying much. Some people were pissed with Blizzard before this for <reasons> and this is just the final straw. Other people just found out. Some change is dramatic and immediate, other times it's the slow drip of water cuts the stone.

Most people don't spend their time researching every action and behavior every company has performed ever.

If your point is just that everyone everywhere is terrible and hypocritical, I mean I don't feel like nuking the world or killing myself so I guess I'm just going to try my best to be a good person and do good things?

>>>Case in point: where were these people prior to Blizzard banning the player? They weren't up in arms about companies supporting China.

I think a lot of Blizzard fans were "on edge" after the mobile Diablo game was announced at Blizzcon last year instead of Diablo 4[1][2]. It was considered to be pandering to the Chinese market at the expense of Blizzard's die-hard and long-supporting western fanbase. The "Hong Kong Incident" is just the straw that broke the camel's back.

[1]https://youtu.be/Ik8efxXXUvo

[2]https://youtu.be/z3jxB7gx8ms

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