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Comment by fortran77 | Hacker News Reader

Buzz Feed News (yes!) covered this same story with much more sensitivity several weeks ago.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/leticiamiranda/amazon-o...

Understand that the way Buzzfeed covered it obscures the very real fact that there's a huge amount of controversy regarding this specific Satmar Hasidic community. This is not a question of Antisemitism, there have been very real issues directly caused by prominent rabbis within this community. These controversies are known to pretty much anyone in the NY metro area, so it makes sense that the NYTimes (being located in NYC and publishing in the nyarea section) would cover it in such a way.

They say this in the Buzzfeed article:

>But on an economic level, this commitment translates into a 28% poverty rate among Orthodox Jews in New York, according to the UJA Federation of New York. Many Orthodox Jews find employment at religious schools and rely on welfare to support their large families, which have an average of seven children.

This completely ignores that welfare fraud has been a perennial issue in the Lakewood [1] and Brooklyn [2] Hasidic communities. The community knows it can take advantage federal, state, and local programs so they do. The same community has issues with overt employment discrimination [3], and is also known for being one of the more vocal anti-vaxxer communities [4].

I deliberately chose local, Jewish, and official state sources to appeal to your sensitivities. I understand if you aren't from the area and/or have never associated with members of the Hasidic community so I encourage you to review and understand why the NYTimes article was written the way it was.

[1] https://www.app.com/story/news/investigations/watchdog/2018/...

[2] https://forward.com/news/351162/wealthy-orthodox-couples-cha...

[3] https://www.dol.gov/newsroom/releases/ofccp/ofccp20170814

[4] https://forward.com/news/national/422354/hasidic-measles-out...

I think anyone who is not familiar with these particular communities in Lakewood and Brooklyn will see warning flags of anti-semitism in a lot of related comments about them. I would just like to voice some support for the people speaking up about them, because this is not a problem with Jews, or even Orthodox Jews. It is specific to these particular Hasidic communities and the fraud is rampant and expanding.

Thanks, I believe it's really important to call out and charge the leadership inside these communities. They know full well what is and isn't legal. If you shut down discussion on these sorts of issues, I believe you allow for abuses to happen and rage to grow against the larger community who are often innocent.

As others have mentioned, the Hasidic community is an insular community. I have interacted numerous times in business and I've never had an issue professionally. In matters of business they learn how to behave with customers and run things efficiently. It was why, until the discrimination charges were announced, I kept going back to B&H to spend thousands of dollars on gear over the years. When I was a kid I thought of them like Amish, but instead of farming and barn raising they just happened to sell stuff.

Unfortunately, just like other groups that rely on propaganda to hide abuses, the good rabbis inside it that act as whistleblowers end up attacked. This sickening NSFW/NSFL article [1] is about a rabbi inside the community that decided to speak out against child abuse. He was rewarded with chemical burns after bleach was tossed in his face.

[1] https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qbe8bp/the-child-rape-ass...

Is it any more "insular" than the Haskell community or the Scheme community?

One of these things is not like the other. One of these things just isn’t the same.

Good example of how justice should be blind to all but the law.

> this commitment translates into a 28% poverty rate

The table used to calculate federal poverty level doesn't scale correctly to high numbers of children.

You can make rather a lot of money, yet be considered poor if you have lots of children.

Additional children don't cost as much as the federal government thinks.

Can you back that up with some additional data?

According to this: https://www.healthcare.gov/glossary/federal-poverty-level-fp...

A family of 8 is under the poverty level if they make less than $43,430. I'd not consider that to be a "rather a lot of money" if raising 8 children is involved.

If you have 5 children already, the additional cost of raising another one is greatly smaller than is the cost of raising the first one. The most likely scenario is that there is already a full time stay at home parent, so they will get additional workload, but won’t incur much additional expenses beyond some more food expenditure, some extra clothing if whatever older siblings have been wearing is too worn out, and extra bed. If the cost of children for you is daycare bills, private school, after school organized activity and college fund, you’re most likely not the kind of person who ends up having 6 children.

$43,430 is the number that the federal government considers to be abject poverty.

Clearly it's not though.

But use your chart to check the 250% level often used as a cut off for services. You can make a 6 figure income and still be considered poor.

$43,430 split 8 ways is $5428.75/person/year, before taxes.

Yah, that's exactly the math the federal government does.

It's wrong though, the incremental expense of more children doesn't work that way.

There was also a notorious story of multiple kosher restaurants who had booked a lesbian comedienne only for the local kosher board, run by Hasidic rabbis, to blackmail them by saying that if they don't cancel on her they'll revoke their food's kosher certifications. [0]

FWIW, I am Jewish myself, as is the source.

[0] https://www.jta.org/quick-reads/brooklyn-eateries-cancel-les...

This story is mostly true, but what does it have to do with this group of Amazon sellers?

Not to mention child sexual abuse scandals in these communities in the NYC area.

Edit: hadn't seen an earlier poster's comment on this, my bad.

Edit 2: it's worth mentioning that the fraud/welfare issue is a massive political hot-button topic in Israel: many Israelis resent having to pay taxes to support hasidim who in many cases don't contribute to society: they don't serve in the army, they don't work, they don't go to university, but they have lots of children and get welfare for them and themselves. Current electoral brouhaha over there is at least partly driven by related issues and the overall religious-secular divide. It's fascinating reading!

In Israel the orthodox are 12% and growing rapidly, in 30 years they will constitute about 30% of Israeli Jews. In the u.s they are tiny and insignificant. Like the Amish.

Both of you are conflating Hasidic with Orthodox.

I think that says more about the complexity of getting and utilizing welfare services being used as a way to keep people who qualify away from the benefits they deserve.

One thing you left out is that despite their insularity, the Hasidim vote, in large numbers, and largely the way their rabbis instruct them to. Combine this with the fact that they have very large families, and you can see how they can quickly become very politically powerful.

I recently feel like I want people to be left alone. Everyone always seems to be intruding into communities that don't want to be intruded on. I disagree with this.

Even if they're committing crimes? What if the victims want your help?

And fast company did this story back in 2013

https://www.fastcompany.com/3021229/chaim-pikarski-the-amazo...

Honestly asking what due sensitivity was missed here.

They talk about the Hasidic community as if they were Martians.

Got any examples? I didn't see anything like that in the article.

"Alexander Rapaport... often serves as an informal guide for reporters to the insular Hasidic communities"

Hasidic communities are extremely insular...

I didn't feel that it represented them like that at all. They are walk unique way of life and outsiders have questions, I felt it did a good job conveying why some of their religious practices make them ideal candidates for Amazon businesses.

My commercial tenant is hasidic and he and his brothers might very well be from mars. It's a very insular community and they don't mingle with outsiders as much so it can get a little strange or awkward. If I stop by and one of his brothers is there they act as if they are afraid to talk to me or dont want to. Feels awkward. If he's there, he hands me a beer and chews my ear off for an hour while chain smoking. Very cool dude and usually the convo is about interesting stuff like culture, art, life and politics. Though he admits that he is the black sheep of his family and half a pariah in the community because he does what he wants. Has more energy than the sun.

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