Ploopy: An Open-Source Trackball | Hacker News Reader

Ploopy: An Open-Source Trackball

ploopy.co

95 pointszdw84 comments

Some of us have been waiting for this trackball. Not just any trackball, this particular and exacting design of trackball. Twenty years ago Microsoft came out with a $35 trackball called the Microsoft Trackball Explorer. The single most awesome input device ever designed. Then for some reason they stopped selling them. The price for used ones and lost inventory has been increasing ever since. Just check out the amazon page for it. Read some of the reviews.

https://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-D68-00007-Trackball-Explore...

Over those twenty years I've acquired three of them for parts. Two of the people I've gotten them from asked to buy them back once they spent time without them. The design is simply that amazing and to think it came from Microsoft and was originally $35, often a combo buy with their 'web' keyboard. So it will be interesting to see how much this reverse engineered version will feel like the original.

I just switched to a trackball last week and spent a lot of time looking into these; the Microsoft one came up a LOT, but so did a cheap one from Elecom called the Huge.

I ended up getting the Huge (since I live in Japan and it's easy to get here) and I'm liking it a lot. I'm wondering if it hits the same buttons that you like with the Microsoft one.

I've had that in my wishlist for a couple years now but haven't bought it since my MTE hasn't broken again since my last rebuild. The key difference between all other trackballs on the market is that they are all thumb controlled on the ball. The Elecom is an index finger ball like the MTE, and if you read the reviews has a lot of MTE converts. I've probably bought every trackball style and keep going back. Kensington Expert Mouse was a good contender years ago but their quality dropped sharply once they got semi-popular in the late 2000's. Logitech trackballs are pretty much all garbage.

Also on my to-try list is a rollermouse. https://www.contourdesign.com/product/rollermouse-red/

I've only been using the Huge for a week or so and I'm really loving it. The padding and size are just right for my (admittedly small) hands, but the best part of all is that there are TONS of buttons, which can all be re-aliased.

The only down sides I've run into so far are:

1. It's a bit clicky

2. The wheel being thumb-driven is a bit awkward for me

The utility I'm using (SteerMouse) sadly doesn't seem to properly support chording for using the trackball for scrolling, but I've contacted the dev about that and if he can get it working, then I'll be 100% happy with this.

If you can find a Huge at a decent price (they're ~$37 USD here in Japan), I'd highly recommend giving it a shot. The Ploopy seems like a far worse deal in comparison to me (though I don't have the nostalgia connection) at $200 CAD.

Have a link to where you can get the Huge for ~$37 USD? I checked out a few places, but it was generally around 5000 JPY w/ tax.

https://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B079FBN9VQ

Edit: And here it is for 800 yen cheaper, but no free shipping through prime so you pay 700 yen for shipping: https://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B0735584RM

ah thanks! didn't think to check Amazon. I don't have JP prime anyway so that's perfect.

Why is it surprising that Microsoft did it? They had produced some of the best keyboard and mice back in 90's.

These and the Ploopy are right-hand use only, which seems unfortunate. I use trackballs with my left hand (I am right handed, but on the left is much closer to the letter keys, and my right hand joints are worse).

I currently use a Kensington Expert Mouse (well, three of them!), which despite the name is a trackball. It has a great ambidextrous design, and a scroll ring that's really easy to use (you can use thumb and finger to walk it around, or go round and round without lifting your finger). That Microsoft/Ploopy scroll wheel would destroy my thumb in no time.

I previously used several (cheaper) Logitech TrackMan Marbles, which have a smaller ball, but their main problem is the lack of scrollwheel/ring.

Cheap trick: keyboards without numeric keypad.

Also die hard Kensington Expert Mouse user, it sits immediately right of my Return key, drastically reducing motion needed to use.

// For those reading along, if you haven’t used this device, it’s amazing for accurate work on dual 4K screens. The trackball is the size and weight of a billiards ball, so you can “fling” the cursor with physical momentum, yet due to its diameter, position with sub pixel accuracy.

This is my current setup (Expert Mouse + numpad(-) keyboard). However, it was kind of hard to find a good keyboard without the numpad. Lucky for me, I'm one of those people who kind of likes the Mac wireless keyboards, so that's what I've got going now. (I also had a similar cheap wired chicklet keyboard, but the 'a' stopped working reliably).

What keyboard did you settle on?

Kinesis Freestyle Pro:

https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle-pro/

Goldtouch:

https://www.goldtouch.com/ergonomic-keyboards/

> Logitech TrackMan Marbles, which have a smaller ball, but their main problem is the lack of scrollwheel/ring.

In X11 you can use an EmulateScrollWheel option by holding the little button with your thumb. I cannot for the life of me figure out why this isn’t the default or even an option in the Mac / Windows drivers. I LOVE the Logitech Marble Mouse, but only with this option.

Curious what makes this design amazing compared to the alternative offerings shown in your link, which look quite similar and are much cheaper.

The same for the classic Microsoft Wheel Mouse Optical. Best mouse ever but they just don't make it anymore. They did resurrect the IntelliMouse briefly recently due to demand, but it has stupid extra side buttons and isn't symmetric. :/

I was always a fan of the humble Microsoft Intellimouse Trackball, mechanical though it was. It's the only finger-trackball I've ever seen which dedicates the ring finger to scrolling, which works very well in practice.

Have you tried a logitech Trackman Marble?

https://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/trackman-marble-busin...

I use one all the time with a utility that maps one of the little buttons to turn on mouse wheel emulation.

What OS? I do this in Linux and X11, but was unable to figure out Wayland. Also, macOS was no joy for me.

I'm no Mac using a hammerspoon script.

https://gist.github.com/arlaneenalra/a3ea9cf2d3a57397bda14a7...

https://www.hammerspoon.org/

This leaves room for a trackball that requires the pointer finger to move the pointer. This way of pointing feels much more precise, and leaves the strong thumb to thumb the main button.

And for the question on scrolling: let me press an additional button that enables scrolling with the ball, both horizontally and vertically.

The Logitech TrackMan Marble would, in my opinion, be a wonderful example for such a trackball. (Here, the described scrolling behavior can be configured with the Logitech driver on Windows, with Karabiner on macOS, and by mapping a scroll modifier button in xorg.conf setting in X, see https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Logitech_Marble_Mouse#S... )

> And for the question on scrolling: let me press an additional button that enables scrolling with the ball, both horizontally and vertically.

I mentioned this in another comment, but on macOS, there's a utility called SteerMouse (http://plentycom.jp/en/steermouse/index.html) that apparently supports chording for scrolling with the ball and is compatible with a number of different trackballs.

Sadly, I've found that that particular feature isn't working properly on Catalina with my Huge, but I contacted the dev and he said he's looking into it. So fingers crossed...

In my experience, it's even more precise to use multiple fingers at once. I use two or three on symmetrical trackballs like that.

Using software for a scroll button like that is often annoyingly flaky and inconsistent in practice, as too much software isn't expecting it or tries to do its own special thing (websites in particular for the latter). I haven't used a trackball that does it in hardware, but that may run into issues too, as a lot of software is built to scroll in whole numbers of lines, and so feels unresponsive to more precise scrolling methods (e.g. scroll button or touch screen).

Kensington Expert Mouse, designed to point with your fingers.

The ball has weight and diameter for both speed and accuracy, surrounded by a ring for scrolling.

// See mkl’s sibling comment, also elsewhere in this thread.

I used trackballs pretty heavily years ago, but as that was a TrackMan Marble (PS/2, three buttons, no friggin scrollwheel), I got some issues with my thumb after a few years.

I used a huge old one for a while (with a serial adapter I think), which probably could've accepted a billard ball as a substitute. After a while, you got pretty intuitive and just "threw" it in the right direction, then made a minor adjustment. Loved it.

I also remember when it was all the rage with FPS players…

Something like this [0]?

I have the same model, I try not to pick the(stock) ball and fidget with it too much - as I'm worried about damaging it - it's a fun feature nonetheless.

I'm still using trackball for FPS(e.g Battlefield V), not sure if it gain me any advantage. (Beside snipping, where the ability to click eithout causing a move is useful)

[0] https://www.trackballmouse.org/kensington-expert-trackball-i...

Hah, not that modern, although I think I thought about getting that Kensington model. I think it was a version of this: https://i.imgur.com/T4MQsEj.jpg

Actually, I am a huge fan of Logitech's TrackMan Marble Mouse and can recommend it wholeheartedly. I use it since about 20 years, renewing it every couple of years. I am sorry for your thumb, I luckily haven't had problems yet.

Before that, I have used various trackballs (Microsoft Trackball Explorer, several Kensington, Logitech Cordless Optical TrackMan) but came to stick with the TrackMan Marble. Especially, I dislike those requiring the pointer finger for clicking - I prefer the pointer finger to move the pointer. It is much more precise. Leaves the strong thumb to thumb the button.

And for the question on scrolling: I press one of the small buttons, then scroll using the ball both horizontally and vertically. This can be configured in Windows, macOS, and X.

Logitech is horrible when it comes to names, apparently every trackball they make is a "Trackman Marble". I think you're talking about the ambidextrous one with two big buttons, two small buttons and the ball in the middle.

I had the one where the trackball is operated by the thumb[1], which was quite great, at least until I "felt" it. Probably not that bad, but I was worried enough about RSI, and had to use a mouse at work anyway...

I actually bought one of the ones you mentioned recently, let's see how that works.

As for scrolling, I only rarely use a scroll wheel and do most of my paging with the keyboard, so I always missed a proper third middle button more. So the original design was quite close to my heart. (I also once had a Kensington trackball where you scrolled with a ring set around the ball. Not that great for scrolling, but I think I managed to connect it to the volume in Linux back then…)

[1]: https://i.imgur.com/K8tDHfN.jpg

My main Marble Mouse dates from 2003 and still works like the first day (I clean it with alcohol from time to time) The only issue it's the vanishing Logitech logo :-)

Doing pretty well with Logitechs MX Ergo which also looks more polished than this open source alternative. I am fine with paying for closed source products if they are good and can be used without a hassle.

afaik they still use cheap switches for the main buttons in those, which lead to problems with the previous model of that line. (mostly the left mouse button failing after 2y). I will still use them, but I am definitely looking for a good alternative with better parts.

Mine must have or reach 2y soon. I got one just as it's been released for work. Doing a lot CAD with it. Doesn't look like it's getting worse.

I love the Ergo. Bought two (in case they stop selling them at some point) and forced my employer to get me one (for H&S reasons). I've been using the pointer finger track ball for years but this feels so much better.

Also it's good for people with big hands.

The only downside is the rubber downside of it. It got unstuck so I had to glue it back onto the metal part. They really didn't think much about that.

I'll probably get crucified for this, but does someone actually want to use trackball mouse? Has anyone even seen these after 1990s?

I never had a trackball, so I'm curious about what benefits a trackball mouse has. Why or why wouldn't you use it over a regular mouse?

The main draw is that you don't have to move your entire hand / the mouse along a surface.

That means your wrist sees less strain + motion, and you have no need for a mouse-pad, to name two possible benefits. Some people find it to be more precise as well, but I don't know if there's any evidence apart from personal preference.

Of course, your wrist still moves some as you manipulate the ball with your fingers, and if you use a trackpad you already don't need a mousepad-like-surface.

> Some people find it to be more precise as well, but I don't know if there's any evidence apart from personal preference.

On CAD applications is very annoying when the mouse unintentionally register a movement while clicking a button which never happens with a trackball.

> Some people find it to be more precise as well, but I don't know if there's any evidence apart from personal preference.

Well, for me it is much more precise. Or at least seems more natural.

But... ergonomic warning... I switch up between three different trackballs to keep “trackball thumb” from setting in. I get pain in the base joint if I don’t vary the angle, and also spend some time using a finger-positioned trackball.

It also takes up much less space and you can use a trackball anywhere because you don't need a surface.

Trackballs date back to the 60s, at least. The original design advantage of a trackball was pursuit and target acquisition. They were developed for military radar operators to quickly move the focus to an inbound bogie, potentially supersonic. If they could acquire and track the target on air search radar, they could mark it twice on two consecutive sweeps of the air search radar, giving the fire control system a course and speed so the fire control radar had a better shot of getting a lock.

My first four years out of college I spent a lot of time in that space, so I got quite comfortable with trackballs. Now I use them exclusively on my desktop. My only complaint is they aren't embedded flush in the desktop :)

The trackball always does stay on the same place. You can have the trackball close to your keyboard, so you can click the "Enter" key from your numpad .. sometimes this is useful. I use mostly a trackball on work and at home.

I have a trackball on my main desktop. They work just fine, and take up less space than a mouse, because you don't need to move them around.

I'd actually love a laptop with a trackball instead of a trackpad, but nobody mainstream makes those.

I only use them. It's just more comfortable and accurate for me. It's like using a track pad, but with real weight and momentum. And I never got into bolting vim bindings on every app I use, so my trackball gets a good amount of use.

Yep - switched to one last week: https://twitter.com/_______kim/status/1179937109357953025.

I use a keyboard for most interaction (XMonad, vim shortcuts in most apps) so YMMV, but really enjoying it so far. The weighting is beautiful, there's four map-able buttons, but the nicest element is a ring that sits around the ball. Spinning it in each direction acts as a scroll and is one of nicest feeling inputs I've used.

I solely use the Kensington SlimBlade on my desktop.

It's fantastic especially for general purpose work and browsing, browsing is so much more easier with the SlimBlade, turning the ball to scroll.

The only time I find a mouse more efficient is if doing lots of selecting text and copy/pasting or diagram type apps. I have a backup mouse for when a mouse is more useful but almost never use it.

I was getting minor RSI which is why I originally thought i'd try a trackball. Glad I got one, it's so much more comfortable and wrists / arms now stay relativity still. It's just a shame the form factor isn't that great for carrying about with a laptop.

Another Slimblade user here - it's the best pointing device I've ever used. The scrolling with the ball itself is a killer feature.

I'm using it for ~2 years now, before I had the expert mouse for about 10 and before some PS2 trackball. The Slimblade is by far the best - both ergonomically and and mechanically. (previous trackballs tend to collect a lot of dirt and required frequent cleaning, this one have a hole beneath the ball that prevents accumulation)

I've been using the Slimblade for years. I even contributed a small change to Xorg evdev input driver (the Emulate3Button option) to work around the weird internal numbering of the buttons on the device.

On my couch / entertainment computer I use a Logitech M570, but for work nothing beats the Slimblade.

I usually get people to start with the Logitech M570[0]. If they like it they usually stick with it and since its small they tend to set it perpendicular to their body in front of their keyboard. So far only one convert has upgraded to a larger Logitech one with a wrist guard.

I am rocking CST2545W(GL) BLUE[1] now-a-days. With plenty of other track balls you can see over on r/trackballs[2].

[0] https://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/wireless-trackball-m5...

[1] https://www.clearlysuperiortech.com/cst2545w-gl-b

[2] https://www.reddit.com/r/Trackballs/top/?t=all

still using my original logitech marble fx, bought 17 years ago. it travels with me from job to job :)

I still consider this model the apex of trackball design, and I have regretted selling mine for over a decade. The way it allows the use of both thumb and index fingers for pointer control is something I haven't seen replicated elsewhere.

I've been using a Logitech trackball (where you control the ball with your thumb) for years, since the TrackMan Wheel Optical iteration all the way to the current MX Ergo line.

My hands are too big for most normal mice; trackballs are just way more comfortable for me.

It’s a good question. I’ve been exploring various dual handed input/UX patterns lately. For GIS/mapping applications, being able to use a mouse with a secondary trackball in the other hand, has shown dramatic results in testing. I can see why 3dConnexion has done well in CAD/3D apps, but I think a resurgence in designing creative combinations of input hardware is long overdue.

Yes, I've used the logitech one (with the blue marble) for probably over 15 years now as I was getting wrist pains from using a mouse. Advantages are that you can just rest your hand in one spot, and even rest the trackball directly on the laptop (bottom right corner) if it is large enough.

My only complaint is that the trackball (on the M570) should be 2X it's current diameter, I don't know why they make them so small.

I managed to get half of my department to switch to a trackball. Even the secretaries got one (after that the department head stopped buying them because MX Ergo are expansive compared to a cheap mouse that comes with the computer...).

I also got my SO and her parents to switch. My SO plays games a lot and had started getting problems around her wrist. She never came back to the mouse.

It's fantastic.

I have used them for years, and almost exclusively for the past three or so. I own about 8 (3 in active use, ~2 only useful for parts). Kensington Expert Mouse (USB, not wireless) is my main model - I use three of them daily (2 at home, 1 at work).

Yep! I like that the mouse is always in exactly the same place on my desk (s), so muscle memory always lands on it (especially useful in my home office, because the keyboard tray doesn't have much room to move a traditional mouse.

My mice have thumb trackballs: my fingers stay on the mouse buttons while I use my thumb to scroll, so I don't need to lift them to move the mouse pointer.

What’s up with all the tiny metallic holes in their circuit board? It looks like they are there waiting for components to be soldered in but the finished product isn’t using them. Do they serve some other purpose?

Those are called "vias", they connect traces on the top copper layer to traces on the bottom.

Thanks! It looks like a lot of them have an associated circuit track and they are placed where they are needed and not according to any kind of greater pattern, which makes sense.

However, lots of others are placed regularly around the edges of curved surfaces. Are they “via fences”, to block electromagnetic interference?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_fence

Could be! Sorry, I'm not an expert and I have not looked at the schematics...

EDIT: On further inspection, they look like they are "stitching" two copper pours together, presumably ground or power, in order to decrease impedance maybe.

It could be this, mentioned in the schematic:

“Spark Gaps - Case: Since the case has gaps in it we expect [electrostatic discharge] to worm it’s way in via creepage and perhaps other ways. To protect the board from this eventuality, we place spark gaps along the edges.”

https://github.com/ploopyco/mouse/blob/master/hardware/Elect...

So technically a via fence, but not quite as sophisticated.

Sometimes, the vias are used as thermal bridges, it is used to draw the thermal energy away from its heat source towards a heat sink. However, I don't it is used as thermal bridges in this situation.

i would love to see one of those in the shape of the Kensington Expert Mouse, the square mouse with the ball in the middle, with the scroll wheel as a ring around the ball.

it's the best mouse I've ever used...

Microsoft should really do another batch of its Explorer trackball mouse - paying >$500 for a used one makes me cringe, once mine finally bites the dust, after almost 20 years of use.

My personal favorite is an Elecom left-handed model:

ELECOM M-XT4DRBK Wireless Trackball mouse for Left-Handed, EX-G series L size 2.4GHz 6 buttons Black https://www.amazon.com/dp/B016QCPRBM/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_0j...

I've got one at work, one at home: very comfortable and intuitive to use.

Id probably be in if it were wireless. I miss my old trackman and the Microsoft design was almost as good (for me). I don't have room for yet another USB connected device. I already have two hubs feeding various components and using a standing desk stand thing means I move the position of the keyboard and mouse quite often. Love the design. Will keep watch. Thank for sharing.

This is an interesting project - my first thought would be to flip it, as I am left handed and would benefit from it being oriented that way.

I use trackballs left handed - there are several symmetrical ambidextrous models available. I feel like I'm promoting overly much in this thread, so please just see my other comments for what I use!

I have just found the one you use - will do some research! I do a lot of Fusion 360 work and I always feel like a trackball would help.

From the code repo (https://github.com/ploopyco/mouse/blob/master/firmware/produ...):

   // Startup delay. This sometimes prevents a USB handshake lockup.
   delay(1000);

Hey, at least they're open about it. I would be surprised if most of my hardware didn't have something like that in it.

finally some honest code, read a HN thread a while back about the Excel source code, and how some comments in it said "dont touch this" and something about how they didn't really know why it worked, but if that line was removed the whole loop broke.

Another gem at (https://github.com/ploopyco/mouse/blob/master/firmware/SROM_...)

    // This is the firmware that is uploaded to the PMW3360 each time the mouse starts up.
    // Don't mess with this. Just...just trust me. Don't do it.

The irony of that comment is that me and buddy are porting QMK to it right now and had to add to it :)

You'd have to buy up an awful lot of $25 Logitech trackmans over the years to match the hefty $200 purchase price of one of these.

Don't let the folks over on deskthority, geekhack or r/mechanicalkeyboards catch a whiff of this reasoning.

Try finding any kind of mechanical keyboard, no matter how old or for what obscure platform, for $25 these days.

I love open & new hardware stuff like this. Currently using an Ergo Dox keyboard & I firmly believe it has saved me lots of wrist pain to date (plus I look hella cool typing without looking now, and my WPM has gone up rather nicely).

Excited to see who this fairs!

> Everything is there for you to see. What parts did we use? How did we design the case? What kind of swear words did we use in the firmware code? It's all there, including build documentation.

I must have missed the swear words...

Didn't look at the code yet, but some Reddit usernames in the testimonials section are spicy!

No minimal kit so I can print the case myself?

As a owner of a 3D Printer i was asking myself the exact same question. Also: The printed parts on the pictures look ok, but not exactly good. I understand that you have to take print time into consideration while mass production, but this is a device that directly interacts with a users hand. Sanding is needed in this case. Or: Printing it by myself in a decend resolution. Would be nice to have this option and pay a bit less for the kit.

Soooold.

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