British holidaymakers 'traumatised' after arrest at US border
bbc.com
bbc.com
By breaking the law, these travellers got sorted into the "criminals" bin and are now treated like shit. In addition, the high punitive nature of merely being arrested means that probable cause has replaced due process in our system. If a LEO treats you like a criminal (i.e. like human garbage) and has probable cause to do so, you are left with essentially no legal recourse.
1: There's also a 3rd bin of "law enforcement" but that is tangential to this article.
Going beyond that, border patrol has special leeway above and beyond what regular law enforcement can do. They don't need a warrant or even probable cause to search you or your property, and they've been known to intentionally mislead people about their rights and detain them without access to an attorney or a phone call. It's pretty much anything-goes.
I find this to be a dangerous oversimplification. I have never met a single "bad person".
All humans are driven by desires, fears within the constraints of their environment. Some of decisions turn for the better, others for the worse. All criminal activity I have seen comes from people who have manoeuvred themselves into bad situations, from which they can't entangle. So they resort to violence or other kinds of criminal activity in order to bring themselves to a seemingly better place. I don't want to make excuses for anyone, but the idea that someone is a "bad" or "good" person, just does not make any sense.
(Which also explains the shock white people experience when circumstances result in them being sorted into the “not white” bin — suddenly they’re experiencing treatment from law enforcement they otherwise would never see.)
The racism comes in when you compare reactions to casually dressed white vs casually dressed PoC. And it gets dialed up even higher if the PoC is showing any ethnic styles.
If you use a model of "Random officer X encounters random citizen Y" if citizen Y is a PoC, they are more likely to be prejudged into the "criminal" bin, but this is not the only factor (gender, inferred socioeconomic class, &c. will also play a role).
This is very different than labeling the bins "not white" and "white"
fixed wording
But second, to your point, polarization is studied, and it has grown in American as well as elsewhere on the planet. I've been listening to the Argument Ninja podcast [0] about the topic, as well as reading the series by Tim Urban [1] to better understand what's happening, and hopefully learn what, if any, solutions (and hope) exist.
Only its immigration law so its civil not criminal law.
That's the biggest mental divide I come across, there is a certain group that is very quick to label people as "illegal immigrants" or "illegal aliens" or just plain "illegals". Of course the intent is to convey and suggest illegal = criminal. This group can't wrap their mind around the fact immigration status isn't a crime.
IANAL, but up to 6 months in prison for first infraction under Title 18 (which is US Criminal code).
There are additionally civil penalties.
Nevertheless, these people were not charged with a crime or illegally entering the Country, nor does Immigration Court have jurisdiction over criminal cases.
They are currently being held in an Immigration Detention Center and facing removal (deportation), thats civil, not criminal.
If they were charged with a crime, they would 1st go to criminal court. It happens all the time, an undocumented person commits a crime (of fraud or moral turpitude), gets charged, found guilty, serves time, then upon release from jail/prison ICE is there to meet them, detain them in a Immigration Detention Center/facility while they face the civil Immigration case.
[edit]
> The occupants were arrested for illegally entering the US without inspection. During processing, records revealed the two adults that had previously been denied access to the US, CBP said on Tuesday.
Source:
Yes and the point is we don't call those folks "illegals."
You responded to my comment, specifically:
>This group can't wrap their mind around the fact immigration status isn't a crime.
Your pointing to a criminal charge that has nothing to do with my point. Sure citizens and immigrants alike can commit crimes, including illegal boarder crossing, but illegal border crossing has nothing to do with immigration status. Immigration status is itself not a crime.
>> By breaking the law, these travellers got sorted into the "criminals" bin and are now treated like shit.
> Only its immigration law so its civil not criminal law.
[edit]
And to respond to your second half, colloquially the word "illegal" is used to refer to civil matters all the time (e.g. illegally parked car). Not all undocumented immigrants are here illegally, but those who would be legally deported if discovered are.
That's referring to a thing not a person. You would not label the owner of that illegally parked vehicle as an "illegal", "illegal car owner", etc... If a person illegally breaches a contract you don't call them a "illegal contractor". The term "illegal" is applied to undocumented immigrants because it fits a narrative.
>By breaking the law, these travellers got sorted into the "criminals" bin and are now treated like shit.
Going back to your illegally parked car, do we put the owner of that illegally parked car in the criminal bin and treat them like shit. Of course not, that would be ridiculous. Undocumented immigrants should be extended the same courtesy, and even if detained and put into civil removal proceedings they should not be treated as criminals or like shit for that matter.
> Not all undocumented immigrants are here illegally, but those who would be legally deported if discovered are.
Sorry, I don't know what your trying to say here. Any undocumented immigrant can be detained and subjected to removal/deportation proceedings at anytime...they don't need to commit any crime for this to happen.
if you kill someone with the intent to do so, you are commiting murder. if you didnt intend to harm someone, but were intentionally negligent with your parking brake and someone dies, you didnt intend to harm , thus notmurder, but manslaughter, or negligent harm of some sort is the crime.
these people didnt intend to cross the border illegally, most certainly the passengers didnt, and i would estimate, they all would have surrendered to inspection and turned around to disembark,given the choice
2- the act of traveling on the road was intentional, even if they were lost. What you are arguing would be more applicable if they were in a wreck, and pushed across the border. But even that is a stretch.
They may have been advised of this, hence playing up the "swerved to not hit an animal" part of their story.
in that region there are herds of caribou, buffalo and sometimes quite contrary pods of moose. The traffic delay can be extreme as you have to wait for them to move on, as it is a major offense to interfere with wildlife migration, even tangentially. a lot of people get lost or stranded on a fire/logging road trying to skirt around the crossing.
Ive encountered such people many times and helped them out to the road. I do have to wonder if there was a hue of skin that was stimulating to those border agents, no mention of anything like that, so im left to wonder about it. Most border agents in those areas are quite cordial and deal with hikers and hunters all the time, usually its just a matter of showing passport, explaining what your doing and where you crossed, then turn around and dont make the same mistake for a long while.
Which maybe goes to show they're being a bit over-ambiguous. Or maybe I just read it wrong.
>a hue of skin that was stimulating to those border agents, no mention of anything like that
If they weren't white, they almost certainly would have mentioned it, with the story being so sympathetic to their victimhood. The media doesn't pass on the chance to play up racism for stories like these.
No. As a preliminary matter there is no such thing as an immigration infraction.
>Disobeying any immigration order...
There is nothing special about an "immigration order" its a court order, the same as any other court order and has nothing to do with ones immigration status.
>or being deported and then returning is civil and criminal.
This 2nd part just goes to my point about mental divides, no where did you mention after deportation the vast majority of deportees have a temporary bar to return and thereafter they may return legally...again this goes to your attempted point about "first infractions." People get deported multiple time, it doesn't become a criminal case after the first deportation.
This is/was generally waived as a matter of policy for a first offence.
The status of being/remaining in the country is a civil matter, and not necessarily criminal.
But crossing the border illegally is criminal.
>court order
It's an immigration "court" order, which is administrative/executive (under the DOJ), and which is not an article III court.
So immigration order might not be 100% accurate, but it's no more wrong than calling it a court order.
That isn't an Immigration Law, that is a criminal law. An Immigration Court wouldn't have jurisdiction over those cases. Whether you are a citizen or non citizen if you illegally enter the country thats a crime, and in either case you would go before a criminal court not an immigration court. Again immigration status is not a crime.
>So immigration order might not be 100% accurate, but it's no more wrong than calling it a court order.
Federal Immigration Judges would disagree, Immigration Court is a...Court, and Immigration Judge's issue Court Orders, subject to the same penalties as violating any other court order.
>Federal Immigration Judges would disagree
They can disagree all they want, but only do it when it's convenient. They're arguing right now they don't even have decision making making capabilities, and can only do what's directed by the executive branch (for the sake of keeping their union). The DOJ can single handily over-rule any order signed by an immigration judge. They're a completely different animal than Article III courts. And so are the orders that they generate.
Can they be enforced by federal officers? Yes, but that's my point, the whole immigration system is complicated and is comprised of many different aspects of government and law.
But you can't split hairs on the intricacies between civil and criminal law (when for immigration, they're highly interwoven) and at the same time argue that a subsidiary of the executive branch should be treated as if it's part of the judiciary branch.
>Again immigration status is not a crime
The article is about crossing the border. By foreigners without a visa. Illegally.
Its not splitting hairs, its how the law and courts work. There is a difference between civil and criminal laws and courts.
Point to a single Immigration Court case where the Court has sentenced someone to jail/prison for a criminal act. You can't because Immigration Courts don't have jurisdiction over criminal cases.
>The article is about crossing the border. By foreigners without a visa. Illegally.
No criminal charge was brought against these folks. They are NOT in a federal prison awaiting a federal criminal case. They are in an Immigration Detention Facility waiting to appear before a civil Immigration Judge.
Could criminal charges be filed? sure, but then the Immigration Court would lose jurisdiction, they would go to a Federal Prison and appear before a Federal Criminal Court for the criminal case. Even if they were sentenced for the crime of illegal boarder crossing and sentenced to prison, they would serve their term in a federal prison not in a immigration detention facility, and likely ICE would be waiting outside the prison the day they get released and ICE would re-detain them, put them back in a Federal Immigration Detention Center pending civil removal (deportation proceedings) in Immigration Court.
Not saying it justifies the treatment, but it does explain the binning, to some extent.
That's if they let you fly there in the first place. I know someone who was denied access because they had a criminal record from over a decade ago, even though it was a minor offence (no prison sentence). This is a UK citizen, so you can imagine how much more difficult it is for someone from a less favourable country.
This is advice for Brits from the US Embassy: "Can you advise me if my arrest, caution, conviction will prevent me from traveling visa free and registering under ESTA? We cannot advise whether a traveler’s specific situation will have a bearing on their eligibility to travel visa free under the Visa Waiver Program. Our advice is that if you have ever been arrested, cautioned or convicted you apply for a visa."
Cautioned! You don't even need to be convicted or even arrested for an offence.
> A police officer then pulled them over, told them they were in the US state of Washington and arrested them.
Horrible and inexcusable experience to be sure, but the explanation for how they ended up in the US needs some work.
There's an even more extreme example to the east near Vermont where the border runs through individual buildings in the town of Stanstead [1,2] and there are just white lines on some streets you're not supposed to cross.
[0] https://goo.gl/maps/XasmFG9Ms6FJUUsRA
[1] https://goo.gl/maps/5aWrrN5TjuE8ennS7
[2] https://www.canadiangeographic.ca/article/stanstead-town-bor...
Over the last few months there have been a lot more stories about the US/Canada border. Apparently a lot more people are getting barred arbitrarily from entering the US.
I would normally expect these sort of incident should be resolved with a warning and returning to the other country. It seems for some reason someone decided to make an example out of these guys.
Edit: I'm not sure that these still exist as a standalone thing. They may have been phased out after 9/11.
> Michael turned onto an unmarked road and moments later, multiple police cars and Border Patrol agents appeared and told him: ‘You crossed an international border’, the family claim.
From: https://metro.co.uk/2019/10/15/british-family-jailed-swervin...
Is something people say over and over to try NOT to accept bad things happen a lot to innocent people. It's not always in bad faith and I am not saying it is for you (though it increasingly IS online especially), since we are generally taught as long as we are "good" that it will all be ok and that authority are the good guys. But real life proves that not to be the case much of the time and this disconnect is hard for people to accept so they say things like the above...blame victims...call it fake news etc.
Sometimes the story is completely right, but a lot of times they're omitting key details that make it much more sensible.
Did this across a European border by accident. Took us 10 minutes to notice the different style of road furniture.
There's just some small road signs here and there notifying of the need to cross into Canada via the checkpoints on the main roads, but they're often posted where you enter the unmaintained gravel road - not right at the border. These back roads were established long before we cared about crossing the Canadian border. If you happen to be camping or canoeing in the area for an extended period, it's very likely you'll get turned around and accidentally go north instead of south on one of these back roads and find yourself in Canada when you get back to driving.
Furthermore since they're not really well maintained, it's possible you'll be taking turns to avoid washouts or other obstructions like fallen trees. You might stray into Canada just to reach your destination because the preferred route is out of service.
Might have a case for lawsuit arguing alienation of affections:
Immigration and the political climate in the US is very hot right now. It’s not the reason I read HN, if you want your rage fix read elsewhere.
> Hacker News Guidelines
What to Submit On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.
Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.
Edit: The second sentence was referring to the significance of the event (and why it would therefore be interesting to people on HN); I didn't mean to say the HN post itself was an outlier in some way.