A History of Chop Suey
historytoday.com
historytoday.com
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/food-and-wine/chop-suey...
Another dish that bears this name has a even more direct connection - Indonesian Cap Cai. This is clearly a localised version of the original dish that either slightly precedes or is contemporaneous with the westernised dish.
So maybe this article is a history of Chop Suey in America, but definitely not Chop Suey as a dish in general.
So in UK restaurants, 'Char Sui' is the same thing?
[1] https://www.waitrose.com/ecom/products/waitrose-chinese-char...
Just to be clear, that's not related to chop suey.
As counter examples I've found references the char sui chicken [2] and venison [3]. But I think you're right that it started off as pork, and not chop suey.
So I could 'legitimately' order char sui tsa sui? How am I pronouncing the 'tsa'?
[1]https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.tesco.com/groceries... [2]https://www.google.com/url?q=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv... [3]https://www.google.com/url?q=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv...
Not really, for a couple of reasons.
The "r" in "char" is a rising tone, which is distinct and different from the "tsa" in "tsa sui" (Mandarin) or "tsap" in "tsap seui" (Cantonese).
> How am I pronouncing the 'tsa'?
The "tsa" and "tsap" are (and I can't confirm this 100% since I only speak rudimentary Mandarin) most likely sharp falling tones, like when you say "Shit!" If you say "cha" with that tone, odds are that it'll sound like "chop" with the p not being very strong. The closest approximation is probably saying something like "it's a" but without the "i" and in the tone/falling pitch of a curse, like "Fuck!"
They're very distinctly different in most Chinese dialects, and Cantonese and Mandarin are distinctly different dialects themselves.
The other reason you couldn't say "char sui tsa sui" is that "char sui" (correctly, "char siu") is from Cantonese, but "tsa sui" is from Mandarin, so you can't really use them together.
Another issue is that foods don't always work like that -- imagine trying to go to the pub and ask for "salmon and chips" someone unfamiliar with pub culture and English might imagine that it's just fish and chips with salmon being the type of fried fish specified (not knowing that you can't specify the fish), or someone else might expect grilled salmon with chips on the side, but odds are you might not get anything at all because it's not something anyone usually serves. :)
People do that all the time. My favourite example is Lake Windermere. Where Windermere is lake in 2 other languages. And half the rivers in the UK seem to be named river in another language.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_river_name_etymologi...
Here, you have two different names that you're trying to use to order a food that doesn't exist, so it's a bit different than something with a shared etymology and history. It would be like walking into a pub (again) and asking for "tako and chips," where "tako" is Japanese for "octopus." There's no guarantee that the dish exists or that the person you're talking to even knows what "tako" is.
Mandarin and Cantonese are essentially completely different languages, so you're just mixing phrases that the other person probably doesn't know.
So maybe I could try ordering a char sui tsa sui, then I can regale my grandkids with stories about how I invented the world famous dish :)
I suppose food is literally a melting pot, of cuisines and culture.
Ps, I think octopus would go better with French fries.
It is typically served as a dish on it's own, together with rice or noodles, as a filling in buns and pastries, in fried rice, or mixed in with other stir-fried or slow cooked dishes to give it a meat component.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Char_siu
In a takeaway, it's is usually the meat on it's own, possibly stir fired with some sauce (and maybe other ingredients) as the cha siu would be made previously.
In authentic Cantonese restaurants, it would be typically made on the same day, and cut from the skewer on order. Served on it's own, with maybe a bit of cha siu drippings and trimmed blanched vegetables.
Then again, I'm not sure what makes 'chop suey' anything else than 'toss a few vegetables in a stir fry pan and serve on rice', as several recipes I found are just that. In my experience, for it be recognized by people as 'chop suey', it needs a certain brown liquidish sauce, for which I use a mixture of Shaoxing wine and light soy sauce - but even there, there seems to be a lot of leeway (e.g. sauces based on fish sauce, Indonesian soy sauces etc).
I don't know where you're based, chop suey isnt really a Chinese restaurant staple. Growing up I remember a takeaway called Thai Garden advertised it, but I always associated with American films.
For takeaways the format was overwhelmingly headings with the meat, then items with different veg. Eg X with cashew nuts, X with water chestnuts, X with oyster sauce. Then an Egg fried rice section, then a Chow Mein section.
But that could be a regional thing within the UK.
When I was living in the UK (Staines, south-west of London - but this was 10+ years ago) I remember recognizing it on menus, I hadn't had much Chinese at the time and this was one of the few I knew. But yeah I don't know how wide spread it is. Maybe the same decline in popularity the article talks about has happened everywhere.