What it feels like to swim in sub-zero waters | Hacker News Reader

What it feels like to swim in sub-zero waters

1843magazine.com

145 pointsneonate78 comments

Back in high school when myself and fellow cross-country running buddies were full of piss and vinegar, we decided one morning to jump in a high school friend's pond (with permission of course). The trick was that the water was just cold enough to have really thin veneer of ice on top. Down to our shorts, and in we go. TFA says "your body goes into shock". I guess that's the best, albeit inadequate, way to describe it. It was like my heart stopped, and whatever makes my lungs work didn't work anymore. Gave it a second, and things kicked back in...sort of. I simply cannot imagine expending anymore effort than simple survival, let alone actually swim somewhere. I mean, how you gonna swim when you can't fucking move? After a minute, we got out and our friend had towels waiting.

Lessons learned: 1. That goes on my list of things "no matter how good it sounds, no matter how much peer pressure, do not EVER do that again."

2. You fall off the Titanic into the North Atlantic, you ain't gonna last long no matter what the movies tell you. Based on my one, brief experience, I wonder if I wouldn't just quickly give up and get it over with. At least death stands a chance of not being indescribably cold.

3. The guy in TFA is 100% USDA Certified Bad Ass in my book. I've been in water only slightly warmer. I literally cannot imagine attempting such a thing. It's like pulling half your spark plugs, watering down the gas, then saying, "now, go drive across town. If you break down, elephant seals will eat you."

Mario Vittone has some great factual information about the realities of drowning in cold water.

https://gcaptain.com/cold_water/

"It is impossible to die from hypothermia in cold water unless you are wearing flotation, because without flotation – you won’t live long enough to become hypothermic."

Great read.

Or it's in shallow water. I once fell through ice over a frozen creek and was close to hypothermia before I found another camp group after I'd been inadverntently left behind by my parents during a winter camping trip (each of my parents thought I was with the other). I was soaked in about 10F temps, but I was able to warm up, but not dry out, next to a fire. I was 9 or 10 at the time.

Holy hell, that must have been frightening. What was going through your head at the time?

His facts are a little off, but it is a good article. For example, he states, "When the water is cold (say under 50 degrees F) there are significant physiological reactions that occur, in order, almost always...You Can’t Breathe"

But he's painting with a too broad brush. In other words, some people experience those symptoms, others don't. For instance, my fellow swimmer Brenden Sullivan swam in Tahoe at 38º F (well below 50) and didn't experience the can't-breathe symptoms).

Few people in the open water swim club that experience the loss of breath: most people get in the water & start swimming without problems. I do experience the loss of breath when the water temperature drops below 52º F:. In fact, I have to do backstroke for the first 50 yards before my breath normalizes. But I'm the only one I know who suffers like that.

Also, body fat makes a big difference, but muscle, not as much. I've seen too many body builders shiver in the sauna after swimming in the Bay. Body fat makes a big difference; big-time open water swimmers are not svelte.

On an unseasonably warm March day on the Mississippi between Minnesota and Wisconsin I went tubing and water skiing with some friends. They went skiing and wake boarding, with a wetsuit on. I went tubing with nothing but my trunks and a life jacket. The water was ice cold. I knew they were going to try and toss me so I dragged my knees in the water. They were numb in a minute. Eventually they got me off. As soon as I slipped into the water I experienced exactly what you did. I couldn't breathe or move. If I didn't have a life jacket on I'd have gone under before they ever turned the boat around. Life jackets save lives. Especially in cold water.

We have a lot of issues near here (Olympia Washington) because it's really popular to tube/float/swim in one of the rivers here as spring and summer approach - but the river is snow melt from Mt Rainier and stays very cold until very late in the year, resulting in many water rescues.

Had the same experience, except it was a pool in one of the Dakota's. I could not move, and it was completely unexpected. I recovered in a few seconds and I'm sure the pool ladder is the only reason I got out without needing rescue.

I’ve experienced the same symptoms once... but it was in water that was about 74 degrees F.

as a kid I once jumped off a dock into a pond during winter on a dare. I know exactly what you mean by "whatever makes my lungs work didn't work anymore". I can't really out words to it, just instant complete overwhelming shutdown.

> I simply cannot imagine expending anymore effort than simple survival, let alone actually swim somewhere.

I've been in ice cold (including ice covered) water a few times, mostly voluntarily. So has a number of my friends, including some close friends/family who are more extreme and used to swim in the sea every week all through the Norwegian winter.

Focus on breathing seems to be the best advice I picked up (and also of course have friends nearby). Also testing it in a shower with the coldest cold water you can get might give you an idea of what to expect, as well help you get used to the breathing.

With the breathing during exposure to cold water I find focusing on slow and controlled exhalation is the most important thing. People tend to go the other way and do lots of shallow, gasping in-takes.

I was trying to get into kayaking but the local water was so cold that there’s a risk of drowning if you go over/in because it’s so cold that you involuntarily gasp.

I don’t think anyone explained to me the extent to which a dry suit dampens that response (only your head get the full force) so that little fact scared the crap out of me. I’m not gonna go kayaking solo if I can end up dead.

Now that I’m farther south (and have rooms longer than 17 feet) I may try again.

Meh. My Mum used to break the ice on our local lake and have a paddle quite regularly. She was in her fifties then...

> I've been in water only slightly warmer.

I think your water would have been significantly warmer.

Pond water with a thin veneer of ice on top would still be quite a bit warmer than -3˚C ocean water. People very regularly swim in lake water that has thick ice on top of it (after they cut a hole through).

> Pond water with a thin veneer of ice on top would still be quite a bit warmer than -3˚C ocean water.

Specifically, it would be pretty much exactly 0˚C at the top and 3.98 °C at the bottom. How thick the ice is does not matter. Whether than counts as "significantly" or just "slightly" warmer is a matter of opinion.

Wim Hof....

The reaction you describe is typical newb thing, your body will gradually adapt. I can swim in this kind of water without problems and don't get this shock when entering.

Thanks for relating your experience. I've wondered, but man, that just doesn't seem like something one's body would adapt to. But I am more than willing to just take your word for and not find out for myself. :-)

Still, if you were on the Titanic and not a regularly participating member of the Polar Bear Club...

Ice swimming is an eventually nice experience if you have a sauna nearby.

If you like that kind of thing, try a cryotherapy chamber too.

The one I tried was a step-in kind of room/chamber and went down to -110 Celsius. Clothing: swimming trunks (with extremities protected by woolen socks, gloves and a skiing cap). One just stands in the chamber, without touching the metal walls for obvious reasons. Blinking often is advisable to avoid freezing the eyeballs (or so they said).

There are three chambers with decreasing temperature, one passes through these somewhat rapidly to acclimatize.

The time in the coldest chamber was 3 minutes. Before the first minute was up, I thought I was going to die there. I calmed down and just stood there blinking as if sending morse code with my eyelids, listening to the eery sounds the walls made.

I felt time dilation. It felt forever between the minutes which were spoken by the operator through the internal speaker.

Later, when taking a short swim, a swimming pool with the usually cold water felt very warm but made me start shivering eventually. I slept very well that night.

The experience felt overall very primal somehow, on many levels. I can't quite put those feelings to words.

This is the first time I hear about cryotherapy. Wikipedia says that it has not been well studied. That does sound like a unique experience, I'd like to try.

Why were you recommended this therapy? How long does the feeling of relief last?

This was at Haikko Manor in Finland, years ago. I just happened to visit a spa which had such a possibility.

It was not for medical purposes for me, but nevertheless there was a very relaxed feeling (like that from ice swimming), which lasted for many hours afterwards.

Doesn't it hurts when breathing -110 C air?

Well, it did feel "colder" than a cold winter day of, say, -25 C and wind outside, but I don't recall it hurting as such.

Then again, I didn't do deep breathing. I'd guess diaphragmatic breathing would've probably hurt in some way.

Overall the impression was a kind an inverse sauna if you know what I mean. In my experience taking deep breaths at the top bench of a dry and hot sauna stings, so the breathing naturally adapts to this.

Finland has thousands of winter swimmers, just normal people, and Russia at least 10x more. The article makes it sound almost superhuman, whereas in real life it's something that thousands of old ladies do daily. No need to travel to the ends of the world and bring a film crew with you.

I think the difference is that he swam 1 kilometer in the -3 water. I don't think the old ladies do that.

Note for Americans (and some island nations) - that's 26.6° F.

I mean it could be both. I could imagine that people can become conditioned to it in such a way that they are functional in cold water if they do it on a regular basis and/or were brought up with it.

But I've jumped in glacial lakes before (not on the regular) and it would become life threatening for me very quickly. It's quite scary.

Yes, you condition yourself to it. You become more resistant over time and can stay longer and longer.

Respect to Finnish and Russian winter swimmers but I think most are swimming in fresh water that is still a few degrees above freezing (under the ice), not sub-zero ocean water.

I don't really think regular winter swimming (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_swimming for the ones of you that are unfamiliar with it) can be compared to swimming 1 km. The former is quite common, but people rarely go for longer swims in water that cold.

I'm sure SOMEONE'S done it before though. :)

Old ladies don't do it daily. The old ladies that do it often did not started old and gradually increased exposure from 1min once a week to longer swims. An old lady that started as old lady swimming daily for multiple minutes at once would be a dead old lady.

Also, general recommendation is to start from cold showers daily for 2 years and be under 50 years old. Then proceed slowly from there.

The whole thing does things with your body. Also, going to cold water after sauna is something completely different then cold swimming without being completely overheated prior. Hypothermia is an actual real thing that exists and so are heart problems. When you are exposing yourself to cold water untrained, the threshold is not that high for these to occur.

My mom is an old lady, does it daily, and picked up the habit in her 60s. She is very much not a superhuman. Her swim group is all the other old ladies in their 60s in the neighborhood. The "gradual" introduction is to start swimming a few short laps daily in the summer, and don't stop when the weather cools. They use a pump to keep the sea from icing over near the peer; the ice can be about a meter thick nearby.

The freezing water daily is really not recommended if you did not started years ago. It is quite popular around here, I do it too and I have already seen ambulances going. It is easy to overdo it. It is all fun and endorphins until it is not.

The age plays a role in terms of more likely heart problems. Not sure how about the adaptation, how it is affected by age. Muscles matter.

Young males end in ambulances too. The emphasis on old ladies here us because frankly old ladies are supposed to be least capable species. I know they can be tough.

But daily freezing water swim without prior training is bad idea. The processes in your body are supposed to run changed for multiple days and if you do it daily it is not getting recovery. Just like with weight lifting every day, beginners risk injury for doing so.

Also, there is no need to put gradual in scare quotes. The gradual as in continuing from summer is the recommended way on top of those daily showers and listening to your body.

If you ever fall into cold water, your instinct will be to swim hard. That instinct will kill you, because cold water shock causes you to involuntarily gasp for breath. The key to survival is to stop, float and wait for the shock to pass. After a minute or two, you'll regain control of your breathing and be able to shout for help or swim to safety.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OBCFEEZe1U

https://www.respectthewater.com/

I get so tired of the kind of hyperbole that opens this article. If an untrained person deliberately dives into 28F water mostly they get cold and quickly get out. How do I know this? Am I a physiologist? No. Am I survival expert? No. I took a trip to Antarctica and the tour operator let passengers dive into the water, swim to a nearby platform and get out. The group of braves souls was about a dozen in number and aged from mid-teens to mid-50's. I even have pictures.

Yes, if you unexpectedly fall into freezing water you can involuntarily inhale and drown. Diving in, swimming a few strokes and climbing out is nowhere near invariably fatal.

All the intrepid divers I saw survived unscathed.

I did it. Can confirm. My legs stopped working and it was a sensation like I’ve never felt before, but literally everyone was fine. And everyone did it.

Another issue is heart attacks. These polar plunges usually have paramedics nearby.

I twice jumped into a lake with multiple inches of ice on top for a short swim. It was for a charity event. I learned the following: when your animal brain decides your human brain isn't doing a good job, it will not hesitate to take over and save you.

The experience was:

1. In the air.

2. Hit the water.

3. Several seconds with no memory.

4. Swimming at the far edge of the water, even though I did not tell my body to swim here.

5. Getting out of the water, even though I did not tell my body to get out.

Instincts just took over entirely. I'm grateful the human body comes with autopilot in extreme situations. I've been saved from severe burns by the same phenomena: my instincts kicking in and dodging a plume of flaming oil that was headed for my face.

I've also had this work against me. In a former life, before I was a sedentary software developer, I worked as an apprentice lineman. When climbing a telephone pole, swaying in the wind, 45 feet (~13m) in the air, my animal brain desperately wanted me to get down. Eventually, you're able to convince your brain that this is normal, but it takes some doing. We had one person get stuck in the air because they couldn't get past it.

I am always impressed by my animals brain to identify anything that is heading straight for my eye, perception seems to focus in on the object, time seems to slow and you have that fraction of a second to dodge whatever was heading for your eye(most of the time). I imagine it as some kind of pre-processor for safety that evolved to protect the eye, it gets the data before the higher conscious functions do.

Lynne Cox did a one mile swim (25 minutes) in Antartic waters (32°F) in 2003:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/swimming-to-antarctica-12-02-20...

She swam in even colder Arctic waters (26.6°F) for 5m26s in 2007:

http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/page/Lynne-Cox/lynn...

Her book is a fun read:

https://www.amazon.com/Swimming-Antarctica-Long-Distance-Swi...

You might be interested to read about Wim Hof, aka 'The Iceman' who can withstand extreme cold for long periods of time (e.g. Guiness record, 2hrs standing packed in ice cubes).

He teaches his techniques, though he may exaggerate the beneficial health effects a tad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_Hof

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUQwFZ_xFdM

I went to a short training and a 90 ice bath but a trainer from his org. It was a great experience and taught me a lot about breathing. The whole battle for me was getting control of breath back and I could stay in the cold longer than I thought. One practice I took away from this is the ability to comfortably take a cold shower - which helps a lot with certain types of pain after exercise.

We make ice cream the old way with a ton of ice, some water, and rock salt. Plunging your hand into that ice bath is something everybody should do at least once. You'll get a new appreciation for the survivors of the Titanic at the very least. It's shocking just how stiff it gets, and how fast. The pain is quite severe after only a few seconds as well. It's hard to imagine anybody surviving when their entire body is submerged in something like that.

If you take a parenting class, this exercise is often used with both partners to learn how to deal with pain/discomfort naturally.

My wife could keep her hand in there for a few minutes. I was done after 30 seconds, if that.

Interesting. Can you explain a bit more what the excersie is done? i.e., each person puts their hand in ice qater... then what?

What's the explanation/link to dealing with pain? I mean, in terms of parenting.

I presume it's about preparing for the pain of the actual birthing process.

I remember when I was maybe 10 years old my family went to Florida for Christmas. There was a cold snap and daytime highs were maybe 60F? Kind of rare.

Anyways, I wanted to swim in the unheated outdoor pool. The thermometer said it was 50F (10C).

It felt like I had been punched in the nuts after 5 seconds in the pool.

Can’t imagine what 1C feels like.

Welcome to swimming in Lake Michigan!

Several years ago, went sailing on a friend's dad's boat during the air and water show in mid-August. That's about when the water temp is going to hit its peak, and about 1/2 mile out from shore, it was cold enough that we could only stay in the water for 5-10 minutes at a time.

If you go under water... Instant headache.

Have to mention Apetor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmIoZxdwLTY

There are a bunch more videos more or less just like that.

Sometimes I go into water around 2°C in a 7mm wetsuit, and when water seeps in it sends a jolt through my body. In summer I can stay in the water pretty much indefinitely (It's anywhere from 10 to 15°C, but in late winter it's usually limited to 45-60 minutes tops. 30 minutes is roughly when my hands and feet stop working.

I don't know how people in norther climates swim in even colder water with no suit.

I remember reading as a child about a man from China who bathed himself daily, even through winter, in cold water from a nearby stream. He'd carry a few buckets to his washing area indoors, sit in it, and clean himself. He thought it was wasteful to heat the water in winter, but it was well below 0°C.

I'm a soft, weak, comfortable person.

"Fat is a good insulator but so is muscle"

I never thought of that

I've tried Cryotherapy a couple of times. The first minute was cold, in a numbing sort of way, the 2nd minute you can feel the cold seeping in your bones, and the third minute I was plain shaking like a leaf. But once I was out, I felt like I was on cloud 9.

It’s probably adrenaline and natural opioids in your brain.

That's probably true, but unlike an intense workout session,where the affects are temporary, in this case were more longer, for a couple days.

>burns. It feels like you’re on fire.

>Within the first five seconds your body goes into shock; it’s very difficult to breathe.

Both of those things. It's a horrifying feeling. Your arms and legs go numb almost immediately. Every time you move your arms and legs it feels like they weigh a ton. I was only in the water about 5 minutes then around 0-1°C. I couldn't imagine swimming a kilometer like that.

I've also done swift water rescue training in freezing rivers. We wore dry suits for that. But you feel it even in the dry suit.

I've gone cliff jumping at Saint Mary's Glacier several times, and the cold shock is real. Even with all the adrenaline, hitting the water punches the breath right out. Once the spasms pass, it's really not too bad, and honestly quite fun.

That being said, if you were a weak swimmer or prone to panic, it could go very badly very quickly. Lots of respect to a guy doing it in essentially open ocean, with the added difficulty staying on course and extreme variability in conditions.

Have swam in ice cold water in middle of the winter, one thing I realized is to relax my body despise the pain in core of my body.

Dang. And I thought outdoor high school swim meets in Fort Lauderdale Florida in November were cold ;-)

Pffft. Outdoor swimming in Florida? Try baseball or running track in Montana. Snow is the norm, not the exception. In high school, I ran in track meets where you couldn't see from one end of the track to the other, the snow was that heavy.

Sure, but immersion in pretty cold water is different than immersion in very cold air, since air has way lower heat capacity than water does.

Pain, panic, shock, bring it on. Re-ascension of the testis, pass.

Interesting story... I always wonder how people fund these things.

A breath taking experience no doubt.

Cold?

Clicked hoping it was 0F.

Was hoping for 0K myself.

Eh, I thought it was OK.

In the Midwest there are polar bear clubs where swimmers enter a lake or river in the winter. Granted they don't swim, just plunge and hurriedly exit.

The guy in this story was swimming in 21 degree fahrenheit water. There are polar bear events when some years they're entering water thirty degrees colder than that! Nothing that I've ever been tempted to try.

https://www.jsonline.com/picture-gallery/life/green-sheet/20...

If fresh water were -9 degrees F, I suspect it would be solid ice (it could be super-cooled if it were absolutely still, but lakes and rivers are not that, and splashing in super-cooled water would turn you into a popsicle). The air temperature isn't even that cold in any of these pictures.

Actually if you read the link you'd see one of the polar bear events the temperature was -8 degrees fahrenheit. I've watched similar events on TV where they actually cut a hole in the ice to begin the event.

Do you mean the first photo where it says 8 degrees above zero?

That's air temp, not water temp. We are discussing water temp.

Those are air temperatures, not water. Being fresh water, the liquid water is not below 32F/0C.

Nit: flowing water does go below 0°C without freezing, as does water with impurities (sea water).

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