Comment by tpearson-raptor | Hacker News Reader

Comment by tpearson-raptor | Hacker News Reader

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tpearson-raptor

I have one.

How are you claiming open source firmware when your hardware requires signed, closed source binaries to even begin to boot? I refer specifically to the Intel Management Engine, which incidentally is why we gave up on x86 many years ago.

How did you solve the GPU closed, signed firmware problem for discrete GPUs? How about the WiFi card firmware?

I understand your decision to try to keep compatibility with games and Windows, but the result is only partly open source, and that is not what these headlines read.

I know we would be interested in assisting System76 (or other prebuilt system OEMs) to start offering POWER products as true open source, owner controlled alternatives to Intel and AMD. For instance, we currently manufacture and sell mainboards that would be a perfect fit for your existing Thelio cases, that work very well with (optional) powerful AMD GPUs -- there's also a 2D HDMI graphics option for true blob-free operation. All you need to do is qualify our mainboard in your devices, and offer software support -- it's a very low risk investment all things considered but would allow System76 to sell truly open source systems vs. partly closed ones.

Is there some possible room for collaboration here? The GPU, WiFi, etc. firmware questions are honest questions -- the firmware is potential issue, and the more OEMs/ODMs that work this problem simultaneously in collaboration the higher the chance of a solution being found that will allow even those devices to be freed up and made secure.

You two, please, set up a super-open-source-software-based video call and start to get this done. Then just say the price and I'll pay.

I want a laptop where the all of the design files are open source. It would be worth a serious premium in addition to the premium I would pay for the open POWER system. The few we have now are maxed out at 4GB. Someone is going to do it...

Have you already seen the MNT Reform? https://mntre.com/reform/

I hadn't, thanks for the link! It's an interesting possibility for a terminal device, though I'd prefer something open ISA -- if that was either POWER or RISC-V vs. ARM, I'd probably pick one up...

Heh, I hadn't either. My dream machine has 4x NVMe, 128G of soldered on RAM (with power control), a real SDR, plenty of GPIO, ADC/DAC. 2x ethernet, serial, CAN, novena style fpga, second SOC cpu with dma... basically a hacked up LX2160A (for which the design files are available... but not open as far as I can tell). I tend to stick to a box for a long time... typing this on a t420s. I dont care about the battery, just give me enough time to move the plug or suspend it. Supercaps would be fine.

Watch out for the LX2160A -- if you intend to use certain items, like any of the onboard high speed networking, you have to load blobs. This was one reason we decided (after careful consideration, which included bringing a box up and working with the firmware for a while in parallel with the POWER efforts) not to use LSI or ARM CPUs in our systems.

Your requirements probably aren't too far off of one of our Blackbird systems -- I suspect it's just the form factor (micro-ATX) that's the problem. You might even be able to do the pull plug for minutes trick with a suitably sized lithium battery tucked inside the slimline chassis. ;)

Yep it's totally the form factor. I looked at it again when I found that NXP system (thanks to #olimex:)... half considered asking about getting rid of the ram slots, ATX connector, PCI's and various tower plugs and adding the ability to run 4+ drives while still fitting it in a laptop-ish case. Also as far as I can tell, you dont provide the design files... yet:) I'm throughly excited about your systems, but I dont need a desktop (or another 24+bay box) atm. I would expect to spend ~$4k for the board.

Yep, I figured as much. We'd love to do a laptop, we're literally just stalled on the GPU. This is where a consortium of ODMs and OEMs could possibly effect change, the combined buying power is probably enough to get custom GPU silicon sans-DRM and locking created. Only question is, does enough willpower exist from the other ostensibly open vendors at this time to actually work toward that goal with us? ;)

Provide a path to a $1300 laptop that is POWER based (and not crippled "slow 1 core SMT1" stuff from IBM's dead-bin) and you might entice System76 and Purism.

Your products target "Freedom, no matter the costs" while their products aim for "better than what the market has right now, at consumer friendly price points".

Both are important: they demonstrate that there's mass market appeal, you demonstrate that there's an achievable ultimate goal.

If you want to join forces, there needs to be a common story that works for both. Right now, their story isn't sufficiently Free-with-capital-F for you and your story isn't sufficiently consumer-compatible for them.

> Provide a path to a $1300 laptop that is POWER based (and not crippled "slow 1 core SMT1" stuff from IBM's dead-bin) and you might entice System76 and Purism.

I just gave them a path to a desktop that is POWER based, with very low up front costs (basically take their existing Thelio chassis, swap mainboards from x86 to POWER, do some software builds of Pop!_OS, and do a trial launch). I think that's a far more reasonable initial trial than going for a full laptop. It's also relatively consumer friendly, especially in today's cloud era where the proprietary apps people are using might just well be behind a web browser in the first place.

If they were a laptop-only company I'd agree with your assessment (I'm not happy with the GPU situation at all, that's the primary blocker for a libre laptop), but they're a laptop and desktop company. That means there's more ways they can test market owner controlled systems than a full up laptop design with massive design + tooling costs for an uncertain return.

If the financials of that make sense, I think it's certainly something they should make part of their portfolio: make a point, gauge interest, increase volume.

I suspect that the laptops are their mass market driver though. Note how S76 has laptops + desktops, Purism has laptops + phone stuff, and Pine64 has laptops, phones and watches.

All of them do laptops plus some excentricity that may or may not translate in good future business: desktop systems are excentric these days and apparently they're not even the most popular pick when branching out, phones are.

kb9,

For embedded and laptop devices, are there power devices or other options for truly free firmware?

The desktop price point on current boxes are still high, do you foresee those prices dropping in the future?

Will newer POWER architectures create a large workload for you or is it more simple?

- cal

Laptop is a large problem still -- mainly due to GPUs. With desktop, we don't have to deal with the issues associated with a soldered-down non-free GPU; the mainboard works blob-free if desired but the user already expects to install a discrete GPU if they need one. With laptops, the GPU has to be integrated, and there are no GPUs in production today that don't require signed firmware (this is due to the DRM contracts for Netflix and Disney+, that kind of thing).

Price point is not likely to drop until we reach a largely self sufficient critical mass of users, developers, and software. Only x86 has crossed that threshold right now, so it's clearly a high bar. Still, the more users we have, the more possibility for pricing drops in the future!

New POWER is near seamless from a software perspective, just like on x86. Upgrade kernel, keep using your existing software installs. And since POWER is now an open ISA, that software will basically keep working forever -- if you needed to reimplement it on a 22nd century FPGA due to lack of hardware, you're legally able to do so. This is not the case for x86 or ARM.

If you don't mind me asking, do you use a laptop for work/personally? And if you do, what do you use?

I've been looking for one and I have the same concerns you do, and right now the only thing I realistically see if I want completely open is a thinkpad x200/t400 flashed with libreboot.

I've actually given up on using laptops for now. I still have an old x201 and t400 but they don't get out much due to the Intel silicon vulnerabilities.

Nothing I do with secure data hard-requires that level of portability, and for insecure (tracked, DRMed, closed + signed firmware) mobile use a Lineage smartphone is good enough for what I do. A laptop with closed / signed firmware simply doesn't gain me anything worth having over the phone.

My personal desktop is a Blackbird. The couple of old x86 apps I can't easily ditch (because they are open source but need MVC APIs and I'm too lazy to write the shim layer) I just forward X over SSH to an old corebooted Opteron box.

Thanks for the thoughtful (and quick) response! That was sadly what I was afraid of. Normally I wouldn't bother but I'm going back to school, and sadly the Novena I have just isn't supported anymore (I tried updating u-boot/kernel myself for a while, ended up not being worth the hassle).

My best recommendation might be a bit odd, but here goes...

Can you put a POWER "base station" of sorts in your dorm / apartment and use a low power secure terminal, like a corebooted C201, to access it over an encrypted link?

I've done something like this when I had to travel last -- was able to maintain a stable link back to one of my POWER machines so the lack of local computing power on the laptop didn't matter. Really hate that Chromebook touchpad though. ;)

Heh, that's an interesting idea! I'll have to look into finding a C201. Finding a POWER base station shouldn't be too hard to find.

What OS do you run on the Blackbird?

I run Debian Buster.

Are ISAs patented or copyrighted?

IANAL, but this is what I've been told:

Both. Copyright applies to some aspects, patents to others, and then you also get into trademark rights. With the US having embraced effectively permanent copyright, ISAs will not be freely able to be implemented unless their owner expressly allows it (my understanding is that the Oracle vs. Google case solidified this thinking).

Fundamentally, that means you get to pick from RISC-V, POWER, or SPARC when selecting a well known ISA for your new device, or start signing licensing agreements (which always come with restrictions and oftentimes significant royalties).

The Oracle vs Google case was not precedent setting, it was a patent court deciding the copyright applied, that is not something that causes a precedent to be set.

I think you need to go up one level, to the wholesalers who manufacturer the barebones systems. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clevo

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