No company should be expected to back or foment a revolution somewhere, from my perspective they're looking out for their own beet interest and the best interest of their customers.
If there is one myth that the past couple of weeks have conclusively debunked, it is the idealistic conceit that the presence of western businesses in the Chinese market will inevitably liberalize China.
However, Hong Kong is a special administration region, and has historically enjoyed high level of judicial independence. When Apple takes the clue from a Chinese government newspaper - not even a legal request - and do the CCP's bidding proactively, it crosses a line. This is not compliance. This is self-censor.
You can argue that Hong Kong is part of China, and therefore Apple's operation in Hong Kong should comply with Chinese law. But what is next? China also claims sovereignty over Taiwan, will Apple self-censor Taiwanese App Store soon? Will Apple removes the Taiwanese flag from Taiwanese iOS users if China government demands so [1]?
It's also sad to see Apple pushes back on US government requests because they can, and kowtows to the Chinese governments without their having to even sending a take-down request! If one day Apple fires some employee because the Chinese government thinks he/she "hurt Chinese people's feeling" in a personal tweet [2], I will not be surprised!
[1] https://www.engadget.com/2019/10/09/apple-removes-taiwan-fla...
[2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nba/nba-statement-diff...
Taiwan is an independent country, no matter Chinese gov admits it or not. It has their own government, laws, military etc.
Hong Kong is not, it’s only a special area belonging to China. When British handed it over to China years ago, China promised the situation will not change for 50 years. Although it’s a lie, it shows that China will have full control of HK eventually.
Huh?
> No company should be expected to back or foment a revolution somewhere, from my perspective they're looking out for their own beet interest and the best interest of their customers.
Profit is not an adequate moral compass. I deeply disagree that by forming a corporation, individuals who would otherwise have ethical obligations are somehow no longer obligated to behave ethically. You're literally claiming that it's okay to enable the violation of human rights for profit.
I imagine the app cached a lot of the map data locally and used a native renderer.
I don't believe that more people -- especially on HN -- are focusing less on the web as a means to get around the "wall garden" than focusing on sideloading.
This is the line you want to draw? "I didn't help them tear gas the protestors, I just made it harder for protestors to avoid being tear gassed?"
I'm curious about how you came to this conclusion.
Are you saying that would have no effect on freedom for the users?
This is really the key phrase here. What we know for sure is: Google and Facebook services do not work in China while Apple and Microsoft's do.
(And yes, either way the phone's baseband will be adulterated by Chinese ISPs at the government's behest, but modern smartphones isolate themselves from their baseband pretty well, so this only matters if you're using your phone as a phone [calling/texting], instead of as a tablet with a data modem.)
So Apple has made it clear that if China wants something, the tech details won't matter. "Oh, I'm sorry, we don't have that information to give you." "Well, start keeping it from now on, but don't tell them, because telling them would offend us, and you don't want that...."
2018:
"The iPhone maker’s latest Transparency Report reveals it received 32,342 demands from governments around the world to access 163,823 devices, with 80 per cent of the requests granted."
Come on, seriously? This is what they ADMIT to worldwide.
Here's on China: https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/cn.html
Again, what they admit to. And that's only on the second half of 2018. With all their regular anti-consumer practices on hardware, you're really going to imagine they're champions of individual freedoms and privacy?
This is an interesting statement and has important implications here in the United States as well: who's the bigger entity? The Multinational Megacorporation or the Country? Who dictates terms to whom? If a company wishes to do business in a country shouldn't they be expected to follow their laws? We need to be very careful in how we answer this question because we're at risk of losing our own democracy to a corporatacracy.
Yes, the iPhone has the best secure enclave.
However, there is nothing stopping Apple from making separate builds with extra "features" for the Chinese market, and installing them. Same keys, OS version chosen by region. Boom. Chinese version acceptable to Chinese government, rest of the world secure. Easy.
From my experience in this area, I would expect the Ministry of Industry and Information Technology to accept nothing less.
I'm sure you think you just explained this, but it completely escaped me. How is yanking this app in the best interest of their customers?
Let's break "their customers" into 3 groups:
1. Protestors in HK. It clearly isn't in their best interest . So not those customers, right?
2. Non-protestors in China (including HK). You're argument is that this way they can still enjoy Apple products? Even though those products can no longer be trusted not to betray them to any whim of a hostile government?
3. Customers outside China. The argument here seems to be that Apple makes lots of money in China and that an Apple that makes tons of money in China and outside of China is better for non-Chinese customers than an Apple that makes tons of money outside of China but not inside of China.
This third group and justification is the most interesting to me. I stipulate that I have put words in your mouth. So let me take those words out of your mouth and just say this is the only way I can make sense of what you wrote.
When I follow this train of thought the only way I can see it being true is if Apple's very existence is threatened if some other company were able to fill the void in China, then leverage that to gain so much market power outside of China that they could squash Apple. And even that alone doesn't make things worse for (former) Apple customers. The only way that would be worse is if this hypothetical competitor's products were actually worse than Apple's and only able to dominate the market because of the market power they enjoy due to Apple's absence in the Chinese market.
That is such a stretch that I feel your argument should be dismissed. Can you fill in the holes of my understanding to help me see things your way?
I think this is an extremely important discussion because it seems to be the mindset held by a lot of decision makers. Is the NBA worried that they will stop making many $millions if they don't expand into China? That is, not only will they not double or triple their profits; they will actually stop making money outside of China? Is Disney worried about this? Are Microsoft and Amazon? Is it a fight for survival? Or is it pure naked greed?
I hope you’re joking.
How does Apple advance freedom in China?
1: https://www.cyberscoop.com/android-malware-china-huawei-zte-...
Chinese local chat app like WeChat, or customized Android from Xiaomi or Huawei, they have back doors, which allow Chinese gov access data directly.
Spyware from unintentional vulnerability vs. intentional back doors are different.