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Comment by kwizzt | Hacker News Reader

One man? If you are just trying to sound dramatic, sure. However, I'd urge that you go and actually read more about how CCP works and the actual reaction of Chinese people on Weibo and other Chinese social media. The reaction to NBA and Hong Kong is not merely the government's manipulation, tho I'm sure there are some being done.

When people see the news and make a judgement, it's often times the judgement the media want you to make. I'll give you another video about Hong Kong protesters for a different perspective: https://youtu.be/ZPYuGYLesx0

This video by no means represents all of the protesters, but I hope people here can see the same event from different angles.

Edit: fix typo

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> the actual reaction of Chinese people on Weibo and other Chinese social media

Why do you think those people react that way? Nobody is born with an opinion. What politics they were exposed to growing up? What did the schools teach them? What behaviour did the government punish, what did it allow? Which information sources where they given access to? Are the "actual Chinese people" who disagree with the party allowed to share their thoughts on Weibo without fear?

And it's only going to get worse:

> Director of the SOAS China Institute Professor Steve Tsang said: "One way to improve, or re-earn a positive social credit score could be to report your neighbours for speaking against President Xi Jinping. This could be seen as helping to defend the honour of the country, or the honour of the leader, by alerting the party to someone who is potentially going to destabilise the country."

Source: https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1153414/china-latest-ne...

Like you said, nobody is born with an opinion. Same questions you asked above can be asked of Americans. Democracy != Good and Communism != Bad

Things aren't as black and white as people make it out to be.

Now, I'll tell you I'm Chinese, but I've been in the US for almost ten years now. I've seen perspectives from both sides and the truth is far from what western media tells you. The unfortunate problem is the language barrier. Many people in English speaking countries cannot read Chinese, thus relying on "Chinese experts" for their opinions, without realizing many of the so-called experts themselves cannot speak Chinese.

I tell you that I don't support the Hong Kong protest, this is not posted on Weibo or any Chinese social media. This is my own feeling and judgement. It's sad I even need to make this disclaimer. Now you have this one data point from me as a Chinese citizen, if that's worth anything.

You're of course entitled to your opinion on the HK protests, but I don't think that's what people are looking for. You're just one random person on the internet. What I think we're interested in is figuring out what public sentiment actually is, and what's causing it.

For example, is it that most Chinese people are genuinely, organically outraged? Or is it a small, vocal minority that is being amplified by state media? Or is it mainly groups like the 50 Cent Army manipulating public opinion? It's hard to say, and I don't think the Western media is equipped to answer that question.

As an example, there are reports that Chinese media outlets are dishonestly painting the HK protestors as largely a violent group that (among other things) are separatists. If people in China hear that, and believe that, I'd say outrage is completely understandable... but it's based on a false premise. But I don't -- and can't -- know what's actually happening over there, so it's just one explanation among many possibilities. How do we, as foreigners, get to the heart of the matter? Is it even possible?

To your note about the language barrier: I think about that a lot. I speak/understand a very tiny amount of Chinese, and can read basically none (something I'd like to improve at soon). I was watching a recording of a clip of a Chinese news broadcast, and of course there was a translator speaking over it in English. How do I know the English translation was actually what was said? Even if the translators were acting in good faith, how do I know that the translation accurately expresses the intent of the speaker? I don't, and recognize that there are limits to how much I can understand what's going on.

I think, also, for context, a lot of non-Chinese people naturally distrust China's government. Personally, I have trouble believing anything at face value that comes out of an authoritarian government, or the media apparatus that it controls. The US has many, many faults, but at least I can believe with reasonable certainty that the media outlets are saying things (whether right or wrong) because they want to say them, not because the government is forcing them to say things.

I appreciate your level-headed response.

To address your first point: are most people genuinely outraged? That I do not know tbh. I can only represent my own opinion. However, I have Chinese friends that have voices their discontent with the NBA and Hong Kong situation. That's all I can tell. For me personally, I'm against Hong Kong protest, but again, it's my own opinion.

About the news reports in China, ofc they are biased. Most if not all media are biased imo. But that doesn't mean you can't get information out of it. By getting your news from multiple sources and cross checking, you can be more confident in your judgement. By multiple sources I don't mean from CNN, Fox, etc., I mean sources from China, US, Europe and all other places. This again brings me to the language barrier point. It's hard for you to access the Chinese media without it being translated and presented to you, that I don't know how you can solve.

For the media being controlled by the government point, I'd like to agree on the Chinese part. The US media tho, while they seem to be saying what they want to say, sometimes it's not true. Case in point: https://youtu.be/yUGPIeE9kMc

About censoring, I'm not denying Chinese social media is heavily censored. However, I find the situation in western forums and social media are rather interesting. Whenever people post anything neutral/good about China, they get bashed and down voted to oblivion. People call them wumao/50 cents to ignore their opinions. Just my observations. Maybe there's a name for it, but I think it's a different form of censorship, but I could be wrong.

Again, I appreciate your response. I don't know why I'm getting down voted. Just because I hold a different view or something else?

This analysis is whataboutism[1]. It is an attempt to create a false moral equivalency by drawing vague, factually inaccurate parallels between two radically different information dissemination structures, as a nationalistic apologetic for the PRC.

Any means of propagating information is directly and heavily censored by the government itself in China, as you yourself readily acknowledge. There are well known, open, severe criminal penalties for failure to comply. This applies not only to media outlets, but even to ordinary people posting personal opinions on the internet. None of this is hidden or controversial.

Categorically, nothing remotely similar to that use of "widespread coercive criminal penalties to control the spread of information, as a government sponsored social control apparatus" exists in the west. (This does not imply anything about the status of biases existing or not existing in western media. That is a logically unrelated issue.)

It is not a question of different degrees or forms of what's basically the same thing; it is two totally different structures: one system uses the state's monopoly on the use of violence to directly and openly enforce and restrict the spread of information. The other system explicitly prohibits this.

What the moral goodness of each structure may be is a seperate question. What is objectively clear, though, is that their respective moral analyses must necessarily be wholly differently conducted, since they are structurally different at the most basic level. There is no possible moral equivalency.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

But people in China can't really cross check things with sources that aren't controlled by their government. I've been in China for the entire duration of the Hong Kong protests, and unfortunately I often have to watch CCTV news at night.

They didn't even cover the protests for something like two weeks. They waited until they had some negative things to cover and their talking points all sorted out, then started hammering away about how violent the protestors were and how they were all that way because of foreign influence. It was truly absurd.

The Overton [1] window in China and amongst Chinese people is therefore very far from the truth. Combine that with social pressure, and poor reporting by Western sources, even overseas Chinese people have trouble understanding other opinions on the matter.

I don't agree about your different form of censorship idea. It's completely different to have the majority of people disagree with or ignore your opinion than to have top-down censorship of different ideas. I can easily find Chinese opinions on social media and educate myself about your beliefs. Not so easy in China. To me it just shows weakness - if the government of China can't trust their people to make up their own mind, what does that say about their arguments?

I haven't tried to bring up the Hong Kong protests with many friends here in China, just because I'm afraid of losing their friendships. How must it feel for Chinese people who have sympathy for them?

As far as the NBA, some friends have actually broached the topic with me. They tend to be upper-middle class, educated types, and while they might disagree with what that one guy said (and apologized for), they aren't angry at the NBA, and they feel the government response is ridiculous and counter-productive.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window

Definitely agreed that you can get a lot more information about something by comparing what different news agencies, especially in different parts of the world, are saying. It's sometimes difficult, since there are so many options, but it can be done.

But the problem is that, internally, Chinese people don't have access to all that. They pretty much -- as you well know -- just have access to what the government allows. If the government tells everyone that the protesters in HK are doing terrible things, they have nothing to compare it to to check those "facts".

Regarding the video you linked, I got a good chuckle out of it, but I don't think it really suggests what the speaker thinks it does. He asks:

"Is it laziness that causes reporters to copy each other?"

In some cases, yes. Many (most?) news reports are based on one of several feeds. Often the end publications who write up pieces about it will use a lot of the same language. And in any case, journalists talk to each other, probably a lot, in the course of getting their work done.

"Is someone coordinating the message?"

Maybe? But the implied conspiracy angle here requires extraordinary evidence, and a bunch of news outlets all using the word "bracing" to describe how HK feels about the coming weekend is, well, circumstantial at best.

"Are these reports all just coincidences?"

Probably not, but that doesn't have to indicate that something nefarious is going on.

He goes on to state: "Freedom of speech means you can finally feel free to trust the media."

Wellll... kinda, but not really. Freedom of speech means that you, personally, can express your opinions without government interference. That also means the media can do the same. It means that you can feel free to trust that the media is saying what it says without the government pulling the strings. But, as you point out, everyone has their own biases, so you can't trust what the media says to be the hard truth, or at least to not be heavily slanted or spun in order to promote a particular narrative. Again, as you pointed out, reading from difference sources, from different places, can give you a better idea of what's really going on.

The news compilation at the end was also pretty funny, but not all that surprising. Remember that most television news in the US is owned by... maybe five(?) parent corporations. I'm not particularly happy with that, but the reality of the situation is that, for the most part, individual stations have a ton of freedom to report on whatever they want to report on. Sometimes -- as in this particular case -- the parent company will require that they run a segment on a particular topic, and I guess even provide suggested wording (which I figure most will probably just take as-is, if they don't find anything too disagreeable about it). And yes, this can be used for sketchy purposes. In this particular case -- talking about how spreading lies and incorrect information as truthful news is harmful to democracy -- well, that's true, and I don't really mind them passing along this message. But we have to be vigilant to spot an evil required message if and when one comes through.

Regarding "a different form of censorship", I don't really agree with that. It's very different for a government to not allow you to say something on the threat of jail, versus you saying something and your peers telling you you're wrong and you should shut up. I wish people wouldn't be so shitty about that, and try to engage in a more productive discussion, but... well, humanity isn't really all that great sometimes, I guess... to put it mildly.

I'm not sure why you're being downvoted either. I hope it's not just because people disagree with you, but unfortunately that does happen sometimes on HN. I really appreciate that you've taken the time to have a conversation with me here!

As an anecdata point, I recently asked a person who lives in Shenzhen the same question -- what is the broad public sentiment about the HK protests in the PRC, and how much information do ordinary people in general even have?

I was told that people who live near HK can get HK TV and radio, which carries substantially the same news information about the protests as in western media, and this group has a variety of opinions.

Outside that area immediately adjacent to HK, I was told around 80% of people are unaware that protests are happening in HK at all, and most of the other 20% believe the protests are a western plot to undermine Chinese sovereignty.

I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this information, of course. It's one data point from one person.

I'm sure a majority of Chinese citizens support the PRC's Holocaust-scale campaign of genocide against the Uighur people in Xinjiang, but that doesn't make it okay to imprison hundreds of thousands of people in concentration camps without trial (and there are now reports of extreme torture, killings, cremation of bodies to cover it up, etc.).

The U.S. and Germany (and many other countries) have learned from horrific experiences (e.g. internment of Japanese Americans) and I think that has yielded greater freedoms that make it less likely that these tragic and disgusting actions will be repeated in the future. Hopefully when China learns the same lesson, it won't be too late.

> the actual reaction of Chinese people on Weibo and other Chinese social media.

That isn't the actual reaction of Chinese people, that's the reaction that the Chinese social media companies permit to be displayed. Do you think that a post supporting the Hong Kong protesters would be permitted by the censors?

But the tweets and posts to support HK polices on Twitter/Facebook were deleted, how would you explain that?

Do you mean the recent tweet supporting the HK protesters? We know why that was deleted, because the Chinese government threatened the NBA. The NBA quickly caved, but it seems to have been too late: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/08/china-state-tv-suspends-nba-...

The opinions in HK (which is not being censored) is widely divided also. It is not about the WHAT that they're asking, it is about HOW. If they are protesting peacefully, nobody would object - even the police. But then again, youthful protester would then claim that the only way that the government only listens when they use violence. The truth is, their voices were heard, it was just couldn't be agreed upon on. The younger generation's perspective in HK is like this - If I don't get what I ask for, you are not listening. Since you are not listening, I would do whatever it takes to make you listen to me, including breaking the law (destroying properties, set up fire in subway, beat up, lock up, surround or threaten people with different opinions). The enforcement is there to oppress me because they attempt to stop me from letting my voice be heard through breaking the law. Since they oppress me, I need to fight them back by throwing bricks, metals, slingshot, petrol bomb to them. Since they oppress me, their family deserve to die and their children deserved to be bullied at school.

THAT is how they think and what they are doing currently. Certainly not all of the protesters are like that, but none of the protesters are willing to tell them that these radical protesters doing / thinking is wrong.

That too can be manipulated. Peaceful protesters could be infiltrated with violence quite easily and the message gets automatically diluted into something like.. the protesters want violence, the protesters are bad

> I'll give you another video about Hong Kong protesters for a different perspective

The video shows one person being frustrated that a road is blocked by protesters: "if you kill people, set fires, I don't care. But you're blocking the road."

I'm sure if you look at any protest throughout history, you could find an anecdote of someone being inconvenienced by it.

But do you see how the protesters treated this old lady? Pointing lasers at her eyes. Giving her the Chinese flag to make her look pro China. You still only seem to see how frustrated this lady was being while ignoring the behaviors by the protestors in this case

I think it's a pretty understandable reaction on the part of the protesters. "Hey, we're here fighting for our freedom -- and yours -- and you're pissed off that the road is blocked? Get bent, lady". Sure, perhaps they could be more patient with her (though I doubt I'd be in their situation) and shining the laser pointers in her face is not cool, but she's not exactly being friendly and nice to them, either.

She also fundamentally does not get how protesting works. "Tell me, why do you people need to block the road?", she asks. Because if you sit in a corner and protest where no one can see you, and it doesn't affect anyone's day in the least, you're completely ineffective. It's not great that random people have a harder day because of that, but as a protester, you need to occupy space in a way that causes problems, or you aren't taken seriously. It's a shame that's how it has to be, but that's how it is.

And beyond that, she's just lying and treating them poorly: accusing them of throwing things at her when they aren't, saying that they're armed when they aren't, claiming they want to beat her to death when they don't, and just overall acting completely irrationally. She even tells them that she doesn't care if they set fires and kill people, but just don't block the road. Even if she's being hyperbolic, that's a really shitty thing to say. Then she starts acting condescending, calling them kids who don't know what they're doing. Meanwhile, the "kids" just take it all, offering the truth in response, and she just ignores them and gets more agitated.

Meanwhile, her only real complaint is that "the road is blocked". My sympathy for her is basically zero. I only watched the first few minutes of the video because of how utterly annoying and unreasonable I found her to be.

What the lady frustrated was not about the road being blocked, it's about he livelihood of many families in HK were disrupted. The protesters have the right to fight for the freedom that they think they don't have, but they don't have the right to disrupt others livelihood with the cost of other peoples' freedom.

> the actual reaction of Chinese people on Weibo and other Chinese social media

People are censored and punished for disagreeing with their government and its dictator-for-life.

Do you think I'm censored by posting in HN? Do you believe I'm a wumao? I'm here speaking out of my own free will. I'm in the US and I don't agree with a lot of what CCP has done, but in terms on NBA and Hong Kong issues, I can see the reason why Chinese people feel differently from Americans, and I sometimes feel the same.

Do you believe HN and Weibo have the same level of censorship? You are talking about the reaction on Chinese social media platforms, which have a long and detailed history of censorship.

I agree with what you said. And the point of my previous post is trying to say that I'm not posting on Weibo and I'm not censored, yet I still have the similar sentiment that people who do post on Weibo have, tho not as extreme.

You have a similar sentiment to what is permitted to be displayed on Weibo. As we have agreed, there is strong censorship on Weibo. Do you believe that pro Hong Kong protester posts would be permitted by that censorship? Clearly there is a strong anti Hong Kong protester reaction on Weibo. But with the heavy censorship we have no idea what percentage of the Chinese population might have a different view.

You may personally have "no idea" what percentage of the Chinese population have any particular view. However those of us who know more than one mainland Chinese actually are not totally ignorant about this. We can simply talk to our friends to get some idea. And it's always hilarious to me when Chinese people post on HN and are immediately dismissed by the armchair experts here and downvoted into oblivion just because they don't conform to expectations.

If you can voice out your opinions only if they agree with the supported policy, then it's hard to tell that it's legitimate Chinese opinion. You are standing before a giant selection bias.

apparently that is not true for HK.

Yes, one man will have the final word regarding a ban on Apple. I didn't say that Chinese people wouldn't approve of the ban. But it will be for one man to decide one way or the other.

You might like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs

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