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Many studios and many musicians are not wealthy enough to throw out a roomful of working equipment just because it doesn't conform to industry trends.

And they shouldn't have to. Developers should support their working equipment by updating drivers. They've known about the transition to 64-bit for years and it's not something that can just be ignored because all the hardware is now 64-bit. It's not like this was done on a lark.

This was addressed earlier in this subthread. It's not just an upgrade to 64-bit — they're also changing the low-level interfaces, and the new ones are apparently not well documented. So while it probably wasn't done on a lark, it doesn't sound like it was done in a very well considered manner either.

>the new ones are apparently not well documented

The low-level interfaces in question were changed almost 4 major versions back. There aren't any new interfaces or APIs that haven't existed for 6+ years already. The only people complaining are the ones that procrastinated because Apple continued to support their outdated apps.

Apple introduced new low-level interfaces four major versions back, and Apple couldn't work up the interest to document them in the intervening years, and then Apple decided to cut off the interfaces that are documented, and somehow any problems resulting from this sequence of choices Apple made are the fault of third-party developers for not jumping to new technology that Apple didn't care enough to document? That interpretation of events seems a bit obsequious to Apple.

If everyone should have been prepared because this change has been in the works for so long, then surely it's inexcusable for Apple to have left the new stuff in a poorly documented state all that time. If you do feel that Apple's lack of preparation is reasonable when they had even more warning than third parties did, then it seems unreasonable to fault developers for also not being prepared.

True, but a lot of those devs ignored the 32- to 64-bit transition for so long that now they're having to do both at once. Authors that moved to 64 bit several years ago have a lot more free time right now to concentrate on supporting new APIs.

As a independent dev I would rather spend my time working on new features and projects on an OS where my older projects continue to work fine rather than spend my time constantly playing catch up with Apples policies. This combined with the notarization requirement has pushed me to stop developing for Mac OS.

This isn't just an OS thing, though, so I think that's crap. This change is a hardware change that's been forecast for literally years. To dismiss it as "playing catch up with Apple's policies" is nonsense.

You have a point, but another thing to note is that the quality of Apple’s developer docs for audio drivers and CoreAudio has been decreasing. Some major behaviours/quirks of new frameworks like AVAudioEngine on OS X are not documented at all. It’s a lot harder to chase the target than it used to be. This is IMHO one of the likely reasons that MOTU chose to implement as much as possible as an on-device web interface on their newer gear.

>new frameworks like AVAudioEngine on OS X

AVAudioEngine is not a new framework on macOS. It was first available on macOS Yosemite which was in beta in 2013 and released in 2014. Developers have had 6+ years to develop and test using these frameworks.

This literally just boils down to developers complaining that Apple isn't further letting them procrastinate.

That illustrates the problem though... It’s not a new framework, but the documentation is still poor, and important limitations of it on OS X are not documented at all, years later. (I picked this example specifically because it was a subject of traffic on the CoreAudio mailing list last month.)

Apple expects developers to adopt new technologies, but often never gets around to documenting them well enough to drive adoption. It’s been a real issue for low level audio work on the platform.

As a former MOTU engineer who worked on the software side of the new interfaces, the built-in web server was really about cross-device and multi-user access, not avoiding CoreAudio. We still had to write CoreAudio server plug-ins for Thunderbolt and proxy the web server through the driver as well.

I hear they are planning to update their 32-bit drivers for the older MIDI and audio interfaces with the exception of the PCIe devices. (There are no existing Macs that can run Catalina and the old PCIe interfaces with the exception of the new Mac Pros, but there will be no driver so...)

MOTU just released a statement indicating that they’re only working on new drivers for the hybrid and newer devices. Firewire gear like the popular 828mk3 classic aren’t getting drivers.

> This change is a hardware change that's been forecast for literally years.

Huh? What x86 processor doesn’t support 32bit code?

If they move to ARM, everything will get broken, regardless if whether it’s 32bit or 64bit. Is breaking things twice really better than breaking them once?

> What x86 processor doesn’t support 32bit code?

That's the wrong question to be asking. The relevant hardware change is when x86 CPUs that don't support 64-bit code finally disappeared from the market and eventually from the install base.

There is only a very narrow range of use cases for which running 32-bit code on a x86-64 processor is preferable to running the same code compiled as 64-bit. For everything else, going 64-bit is a clear improvement if not an outright necessity. Even if it didn't require any ongoing maintenance, continuing to ship 32-bit versions means wasting storage space and network bandwidth, and leaving on the table the improvements enabled by going 64-bit (eg. better ObjC runtime). For the entire existence of x86-64 processors it has been clear that retaining 32-bit compatibility through the entire software stack has significant downsides and that the cost/benefit balance has been inexorably moving toward eventually dropping 32-bit support.

"forecast for years" is distinct from "totally a good idea."

Time and resources a software publisher spends on the upgrade treadmill is time they can't spend on other efforts, whether or not there's advance notice. Essentially, it's a cost Apple imposes on developers for their platforms. And either that shows up in costs for users or the software folds.

If there's a counter to upgrade treadmill criticisms, one of the few that makes sense is if there are compelling benefits with the upgrade to weigh against the cost.

At the moment, it's entirely unclear to me what benefits I'm supposed to derive from dropping 32 bit support, and moreover, I can't think of a single compelling benefit I've derived from macOS updates since Snow Leopard.

This distinction does not seem very useful. Regardless of whether it was a good idea, developers had to decide at some point whether they should prepare for the transition or cease macOS development (unless they wanted to continue supporting old versions with a dwindling userbase). This decision could have been made years ago. It seems to me that anyone complaining the change is too soon or too sudden is forgetting the sheer amount of time they had to decide their best course of action. It should be a question of whether to continue development at all, since that should include a transition to 64-bit. If not, then deprecate the project. I understand may situations will not be this black-and-white, but it seems like many of them are.

> anyone complaining the change is too soon or too sudden

Notably, that's not my complaint or my point. This isn't about the timing (which is why the distinction was important).

No matter how much time someone has to prepare for a change, there's a cost to making it. And if the benefits of the change don't outweigh those costs for the developer (and the user), then a complaint sure makes sense from those perspectives.

This does intersect the issue of timing, because in a resource-constrained situation, you inevitably have to defer some efforts until they're absolutely necessary (and simply rule out doing others). But timing is not the fundamental issue, cost-benefit tradeoffs are.

> [development] should include a transition to 64-bit.

Why? What's the benefit to ending 32 bit application support?

Counterpoint: BareBones software has continuously updated BBEdit as Apple transitioned from:

- 68K Classic MacOS

- PPC Classic MacOS

- PPC OS X

- x86 MacOS

However BareBones did drop TextWrangler, and that's one of the thing that's going to keep me on Mojave for a while.

What's the issue with using BBEdit in free mode?

Didn't know it existed - thanks!

BBEdit is not a real time audio engine. It’s a text editor. And they’ve released thirteen versions which all require a relatively substantial amount of money to upgrade.

And what’s the problem with paying for software you use?

Nothing. But it's in their best interest to keep it working since they're going to charge you for the upgrade that continues to work.

Isn’t that also a good thing - that a company has a business model that allows them to keep supporting an app for almost two decades?

What alternative would you prefer? That Apple ships the latest MacOS with a 68K emulator, a PPC emulator, all of the 32 bit libraries, classic MacOS in a VM, and all of the Carbon libraries forever?

A caveat: the notarization is not forced. Apps can still run even if they aren't notarized, it just takes an extra click.

> Why are people so reactive and sluggish? People should be ready for change.

I'm not sure if you'd be so ready for change if it meant replacing expensive gear that is still totally functional.

But the point is 32-bit apps aren't functional anymore. You either keep up by thinking ahead, or you find yourself suddenly stumped. There's no option to just ignore it.

> But the point is 32-bit apps aren't functional anymore

No? How come I can use Ableton Live 10 in 32 bits to make music then?

On macOS Catalina?

The main objective is to make music. Running macOS Catalina is optional.

Ok but we were talking about running on macOS Catalina here - you need to be 64-bit to run there. And if you don't, you're likely to get left behind.

Or, you know, having to upgrade anyway, people might switch platforms to one which has a better track record in supporting old software.

It's not if you're buying a new Mac from today.

I'm pretty sure you can't. There seems to exist only 64 bit versions of Live 10: https://www.ableton.com/en/trial/

When you open Live 10 in Mojave you get this alert:

https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/articles/360003076340

Interesting. So it's still mixed and has disadvantages of a 64 bit program (no 32 bit plugin support 1) and of a 32 bit program (no compatibility with Catalina) while pretending to be a 64 bit program. Sounds great!

1 at least on Windows

Is there a reason you don't freeze the version MacOS, disable all the updates(if possible), disconnect it from internet to prevent the zero-day attack on it and continue using it in mojave or whatever your gear works the best with?

That's one option, but at some point one will want to get a new plugin or something that will require a new macOS version.

studio hardware can generally last 20+ years (and can cost > 5000$ for one rack) - you really don't want to throw it all every 3 macos releases

The hardware isn't the problem, though. The software is. All of these vendors have had ample time to update their software to work with the hardware.

Assuming the vendor is still in business, still supports the product line, and still develops software updates for models that have been obsolete for over a decade.

Apple isn’t exactly known for backwards compatibility.

I could never justify a long term hardware life knowing that I’m signing up with a short term software life cycle. Not only a short term software lifecycle, by a short term computer hardware/OS lifecycle. Want more memory or a faster processor? Not with that old OS! Btw, you have to rewrite all of your software if you want that extra memory.

Because firewire interfaces that were purchased a long time ago still work fine in professional settings.