Hacker News Reader

Comment by SEJeff | Hacker News Reader

I'd never in my life have thought I'd have bought a car > $50,000 and here I am with a AWD LR Model 3 and loving it! My other car was a 2011 Ford Fiesta. If you don't want to purchase one, don't do a test drive. Once my wife and I did a test drive in a Model S, we were both sold on a Tesla.

View on HN

To be honest, the Tesla interior leaves me cold. It feels corporate, like being in a nice chair driving a 17" laptop to work. Feels soulless to me.

I really hate touch screens and have opted personally for a similarly expensive car with lots of switches and dials that I don't have to look at to make sure I'm on the right one. (Mini Clubman, with basically every option, literally months before they added a touchscreen entertainment system)

While I agree with you about the interior looking rather spartan and the superiority of physical dials and knobs, one nice thing about the Tesla touchscreen is that things are laid out in a somewhat intuitive feature.

I had the experience of sitting in a few other cars at the pricepoint (BMW 3 series, and a Mercedes C class), and the infotainment systems in there were way behind. Mercedes uses a touchpad along with a touchscreen for navigation, while the BMW uses a dial along with the touchscreen. I much preferred the Tesla touchscreen only to their weird physical/virtual button hybrid systems.

I can't disagree, most of the other touchscreen UIs in cars are worse. I fear I'm going to start sounding like the cranky old man when it's time for the next car after this one whining for a more tactile UI. :)

> while the BMW uses a dial along with the touchscreen

I have a Bmw with both, and I never use a touchscreen, using the idrive joystick is so much easier than reaching for a touchscreen

It is great, same system exists in my Mini with a pre-touchscreen and I use it with Spotify all the time. I love it to pieces. (edit: Yes, I know Mini is owned by BMW and that is why the same (literally) tech is in my car.)

I believe mini is owned by Bmw, a lot of the stuff is borrowed from Bmw

It's nice to see somebody taking risks in interior design; it's definitely not for everybody but it's nice to see a design that doesn't feel like they're trying to copy German luxury cars.

Of course I don't want companies innovating on design at the expense of safety but it does appear that Tesla has a fairly well thought out set of physical controls. Is it enough? Good question.

Mini has historically had the most amazingly satisfying physical switches/knobs/dials. I mean, the Start switch is fantastic [0].

But unfortunately, it looks like their newer models are now adding a touchscreen :(

[0]: https://external-preview.redd.it/DQgq34IMDr2WUwv-x1_X-JVsjge...

Yeah that's an entirely fair critique (I mentioned the Audi and Mercedes interiors being way nicer in a followup in this thread).

I'm ok with a more spartan interior as driving is just so much more enjoyable. The regenerative breaking takes some real getting used to, but once you've gotten used to it and you do 1 pedal highway driving (assuming you're not using auto-pilot) it is just so much less work. Most of the real fanciness in the Tesla is around making driving more enjoyable. I got the Model 3 AWD LR (not the performance model) and know I can out accelerate virtually ever other non-Tesla on the road. If someone wants to be a jerk and cut me off it is pretty much impossible unless they're in a super car (or another Tesla). Not being a gear head or car fanatic it just gives me more options when driving. That is worth a simpler interior. I was also fine with the crappy interior of my 2011 Ford Fiesta however, so we have different tastes.

The Porsche Taycan is the first electric car that seems to start to compete with a Tesla. The soon to be released Volkswagen ID.3 also looks like a pretty solid Model 3 competitor. The future holds a lot of options in this space, so you don't have to drive a Tesla to enjoy the all torque all the time driving of an electric drivetrain.

I also do one-pedal highway driving... and that is my other use case problem with Tesla (that I originally chose not to bring up as it takes me out of the category of potential buyers).

I live in Colorado; my highway driving includes driving 400-500 miles over mountain passes sometimes in the winter down to parts of New Mexico. I have all-wheel and an 8-speed sport transmission; so the Mini eats mountains for breakfast, doesn't drink its fuel supply extra fast when it's 0F in the snow over mountain passes, and doesn't need me to spend time recharging somewhere in the unpleasant cold. Highway speeds (85mph), I can go 400+ miles before refueling.

To each their own. That's the beauty of choice! The range is certainly less in the cold, but it is manageable. We drove from Chicago to Kentucky (~385 miles) when it was subzero or so last winter and stopped at the same place we normally do south of Indianapolis to charge and eat dinner. Do you drive straight through 400-500 miles or do you stop to eat and take a restroom break? I live in Chicago and know of this cold you speak of, but not so much of mountains. I don't think EVs are for everyone, or will be capable of every use case for a few years, but they certainly are incredible for the right use cases. Most of the country is blanketed by superchargers and there are in fact 14 of them along the highways in CO (checked via https://supercharge.info) and 9 in NM.

You can watch Netflix while charging in the warmth of your car if you choose (It is called Theater Mode). If Elon is to be believed, and you should always take what he says with a grain of salt, Tesla will have 400 mile range vehicles by the end of next year. The use cases Tesla are bad for are dwindling quite quickly.

Conversely, batteries don’t lose power at altitude. Test driving a model 3 performance and doing day trip to Vail may change your views a bit.

The same can be said of turbocharged ICE vehicles, which are quite common now especially with direct-injection.

Forced induction only minimizes power loss at altitude. Higher boost pressure can make up for the lower oxygen density, but at the expense of increasing intake air charge temperature, hurting power output.

The all time record holder of the Pikes Peak hill climb is an EV.

> If someone wants to be a jerk and cut me off it is pretty much impossible

Why such an adversarial mentality? Why not just let people change lanes if there's enough room in front of you?

Well, you see, we used to be apes.

I lived in Los Angeles for 6.5 years, where people are utter nightmares on the highway. You have to be very aggressive in traffic. Not because I want to be, but because I would put on a blinker and someone would speed up just because I was trying to get over.

Oh, you mean they cut you off when you're trying to change over. That's terrible, we get that here (Vancouver) a lot, but I doubt the ability to rapidly accelerate would help much. There's usually a car in front and racing the jerk for the limited space behind it would create all kinds of dangerous situations.

To drive in LA is to drive in dangerous situations sadly, playing it safe will only put you at a higher risk of being rearended or cut off and someone slamming their brakes on you. It sucks, but I don't see any other way. Once enough selfish people are in the batch, it forces everyone else to be selfish.

Compared to a Fiesta there's no doubt it impresses, but a comparison to an E-Class, 5-Series, or other comparably priced luxury vehicle would be more apt.

> like being in a nice chair driving a 17" laptop to work

This is the kind of content I'm looking for lol :)

Last year I took a ride in a 4-5 year old Model S. I loved everything about the car except the interior. It was very drab, parts of the interior were hard where it should be soft, and the carbon fiber accents did not look as great as cars half the price. It was very plain, not quite Toyota plain but I felt it was missing something.

For Porsche money the Model S should be on point. All the above critiques would be fine on a Model 3. I hope the recent Model S’s have improved.

Exactly the same for me. Had never spent more than 22K on a car in 20 years of driving. The model 3 changed all that and just feels like the car of the future. So much fun to drive. Like the first time using an iphone.

I totally get this. I have a new phone after about five years and it is such a pleasure to use. Really enjoying it. Felt like an outrageous amount of money, but it truly is pleasant using it.

If I had the money, and needed a car, I would give it serious consideration.

Alas, I only buy used cars and The most I’ve spent is 17k.

I’ll pony up more cash next time just to be sure I have some of the driver aids/safety features that might help me from rear ending someone because I glanced at the gas gauge in stop and go traffic.

Just wait a couple of years for the used market to really open up, and pick up a standard range +

I'm shocked you love a 50,000 dollar car when your last car was 8 years old budget car.

Reminds me of comparing this year's iPhone to a no name Android.

Op, did you realize you did this?

Exactly. As an Android user, I always used to laugh when (10 years ago) people would upgrade to an iPhone from a flip phone and say "the best phone I've ever had".

Ridiculous :).

Well of course the Model 3 is amazing, but my point was I would NOT spend this kind of money on a BMW or a Mercedes or any other existing luxury car. I am not a luxury car owner and never planned on being. I saw the idea of what Tesla is going for and want to see the future Musk and his cult of personality are trying to build. Self driving cars sound cool, but they lead to all kinds of interesting societal changes. My cousin was killed by a drunk driver. Self driving cars means less drunk drivers. My father had a seizure while he was driving and almost died in the resultant wreck. I'm not saying he (Musk) will necessarily meet all of his goals, but if he hits even 1/2 of them, it is the future I want to live in. I purchased the Tesla to help him make it so.

I jokingly have been comparing the Model 3 to an A10 Warthog. The A10 Warthog (famously) is literally a plane built around a really big gun. The gun is the primary focus of A10 designers and it shows. When it comes to a Tesla, it is a computer with amazing batteries that happens to live in a car. It isn't like any existing car on the market, because primarily, it is a computer. This is really exciting, and very different.

> it is a computer with amazing batteries that happens to live in a car

hum pretty sure the value of your Tesla will drop to zero if it can’t drive anymore. What are you talking about?

I don't see how this comment ties to the parent comment in any way? What part of their comment are you referring to?

Like how the Tesla is an amazing computer? Besides the ML chip.

You fundamentally didn't understand my comment. Like the A10 being a gun with a plane built around it, Tesla vehicles are computers with amazing batteries and a car built around them.

My Model 3 didn't have an alarm system or dashcam when I purchased it in November of 2018. I got that later as an OTA update. How many vehicles can do things like that even today in 2019? Precious few that aren't Teslas, mainly due to dealer network legalese. They wanted us to bring our Ford Fiesta into the dealer for them to load a new version of Sync on it via a thumbdrive. Such silliness.

I was telling my family this yesterday. This is the first car I have ever owned where it is unquestionably a better car a year later then when I purchased it.

This is the thing that always drives cognitive dissonance for me. Computer professionals know how buggy and unreliable computers are more than anyone else in the world, so why would we want to actually drive a computer and put our (and others') lives in the hands of software to this degree? "It's a computer" is always my explanation for what I DON'T like about Tesla.

The problem with this point of view is that people drive incredibly poorly. I went back and hit my dashcam over the last week, and there were _5_ illegal actions, two of which could have resulted in potentially fatal outcomes if one more thing went wrong.

Yes, software is limited. So are people, so I choose to combine both systems for safety. I use autopilot, but my hands stick on the wheel. I spend much more time on total awareness as opposed to just what is immediately in front of me.

Compare the Tesla's system to the current flawed system, not a utopian system where people don't make any mistakes.

What I always tell everyone is that the car and I together driver better than either of us on our own.

Because we know how buggy (imperfect) and unreliable human being are, and we are more concerned about other human drivers than we are about computer drivers.

Humans are just as buggy, they're just buggy in ways you're comfortable with. I can almost say with certainty that a tesla will never rearend another car while self driving while texting humans do it often. A tesla on the other hand will see a half painted line and veer into a concrete barrier while a human probably won't.

They both have their risks so it's whatever you're comfortable with. I ride a motorcycle in los angeles and own a tesla model 3 so I have a pretty good feel for how drivers behave and I've been equally pissed off at both drivers. haha.

I will say that the Model 3 is definitely an amazing car by what it does already. Last night I had it pick me up in front of my grocery store and I loaded the trunk and took off. It honestly makes me giddy what it can do now considering the flaws.

IF you're this spooked about a computer in a car, let me tell you about what runs the airplanes and ATC's...

Any car past the year 2000 probably has a computer in it, and virtually all modern cars have them. Your 2013 truck or 2016 sedan are all using computers to balance gas, traction, gear shifting, and other critical functions.

Did you compare it to a $50K Audi or BMW? They’re also pretty fun

I sold a 2017 Audi TT convertible for a 2019 Model 3. I've previously owned an RX-8, a BMW M3, and an MX-5, and the Tesla is my favorite car just barely squeaking past the M3.

Turns out this is part of a trend of luxury car owners switching to Tesla and its driving down costs of pre-owned luxury cars:

https://www.capitalone.com/cars/learn/finding-the-right-car/...

I compared it to my buddy's Mercedes GT sports car and an Audi A5. The Tesla's instant acceleration is like driving a roller coaster. There is simply no comparison.

My stepfather asked "So Jeff, how many gears does this have?" right as I pushed the accelerator to the floor. The glasses ontop of his head flew off and he said a few choice words. There are no gears in a Tesla and it is instant torque. The interior in both the Audi and Mercedes were nicer no doubt, but you I care about the driving more than the interior. The Model 3's interior isn't terrible, but isn't luxury by any stretch.

Does that make sense?

>There is simply no comparison.

The numbers would indicate that Dodge makes several points of comparison though making such a comparison would certainly get everyone to recoil in horror as though you brought up Bud Light in a discussion of micro-brews.

Which one? Isn't the Hellcat their top-end one? A Dodge Hellcat's 0-60 is 3.6 seconds. A P100D Tesla Model S's 0-60 is 2.28 seconds. Tesla doesn't win max speed against really any of the muscle cars until they actually produces the Roadster v2, but I was referring to acceleration.

The Demon does 0-60 in .02 sec more than the P100D for $50k less (83k vs 133k according to Google). The Hellcat does 0-60 in .4 sec more and costs ~$10k more than the Performance trim Model 3.

In any case, nobody ever won internet points (or the approval of snooty coworkers and neighbors) by driving a Dodge.

You also get to cry every time you fuel up several times a week. I owned many performance gas cars before. BMW M3, MB C63s and now have a Performance Model 3 that is a joy to drive.

The best part? it only cost me $20-30 a month in energy cost.

I don't think anyone buying a $50k+ car that specifically caters toward performance (i.e. excluding work vehicle owners) is going to be doing much crying over fuel economy.

Tesla Model S Performance is currently $99.990, not $133k.

0-60 is a much more practical metric as it lets you get away hairy situations and you get to use it everyday.

How many times have you drove a car at max speed really? You'd be lying if you tell me all the time. Unless you track it every weekend.

Even this is misleading, since in terms of TCO, the model 3 is _not_ a 50K car, it is much more comparable to a 35-45K car, depending on your own mileage.

While the electronics are good, they are somewhat limited, no "birds eye view" for example, and the interior fit and finish are not equivalent to 50K cars, IMO at least.

However, people look at the sticker price, and get shocked by what it costs, and don't think about the TCO.

Just to be clear, I am not saying that this is a cheap car, far from it, but it is cheaper to own than the sticker price would suggest.

Disclaimer: I _do_ have a Tesla. They are great cars, but they are not sticker price comparable to other luxury cars, at least not in fit and finish. Driving on the other hand…

>I'd never in my life have thought I'd have bought a car > $50,000 and here I am with a AWD LR Model 3 and loving it! My other car was a 2011 Ford Fiesta. If you don't want to purchase one, don't do a test drive

What about the Model 3 swayed your opinion enough to spend 2-3x more on a car than you previously had? I love that Tesla has finally brought "cool" electric cars to the market that don't look like they were purposefully designed be a science experiment (Honda Insight, older Priuses, etc...). However, as a long time auto enthusiast I can't help but wonder how many people who share your sentiment of "once you drive it you'll need it" would end up in a different car if they had also test driven other similarly priced performance cars like the M3/M4, RS3 and C63 AMG.

I find it interesting that a tech company has been able to convince people to spend significantly more on a car than they ever would have, and the only two reasons I can come up with are the convenience of charging at home and the big screen. I'm not suggesting Tesla makes sub-par products by any means, only that exciting cars packed with features have been around forever. Many driver's assists like auto pilot and self-parking that people rave about have been offered by Mercedes and BMW for longer than Tesla has even existed, so I don't think that's it, but of course people could be unaware of those features. I'm excited to see what other boundaries Tesla pushes, because every other manufacturer has no option but to play keep up now.

I answered this a bit:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21181145

and:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21181755

TL;DNR: I buy in to self driving vehicles being good for humanity as well as electric vehicles being good for humanity. I purchased a Tesla to help make the future Elon opines about into closer to reality (even after the Elon distortion field is removed).

Interesting. From what I've read is it fair to say that you're not primarily concerned with the driving experience, but rather the convenience a Tesla provides and supporting them as a brand? I hope I'm not at all coming off as judgemental, I'm genuinely curious about what draws people to the cars they own. I'm a huge auto enthusiast and I too couldn't care less about luxury. The driving experience is about 90% of my consideration when I'm shopping for cars, so I find it interesting to see what factors other people consider. I ended up with a GT-R, which I'm sure a lot of people think I'm absolutely insane for being willing to shell out that much for a Nissan. I can't wait to see the Tesla Roadster in action, it's really going to shake up the world of drag racing.

No the driving experience is utterly incredible. It is unlike anything I've ever driven, but the fanciest car I've ever driven on a regular basis was an early 2000s Camaro Z28 (in the early 2000s).

Tesla is not remotely unique in having a lot of nice driver assist functionality, but the stuff they have does a great job to reduce driver fatigue. It is the little stuff, like the wheel vibrating when the autopilot sensor suite notice you're drifting off into another lane (either side).

It is the radar that bounces under the car in front of me to the car in front of it and back. The tesla alerts me that the car in front of the car in front of me (via the radar) just slammed on their brakes. I slow down and about a 1/2 second later, the car in front of me slows down. This has prevented me from rear ending people 3x now.

Some people see autopilot as a party trick, but I see it as something that enhances me as a driver, but doesn't replace me. I'm able to get a better situational awareness of what is going on around me while not really worrying about the accelerator / brake pedal or turning the steering wheel. Much like when I was a UAV (drone) pilot in the Army, I've developed an "instrument scan" while on autopilot and part of my scan involves checking cars to my sides and behind me. I'm literally more aware of the road because of autopilot and end up after long drives more refreshed and less exhausted. The only thing that I'm not fully a fan of (yet) is the auto lane changes. Sometimes it gets spooked by shadows and will swerve back into the lane you started from. This seems to have stopped since the major V10 software update a few weeks ago, but traditionally has been a pain point.

Things like Caroke and Theater Mode (netflix mainly) are huge hits with my daughter and keeping the kids happy is a huge part of making a drive enjoyable or utterly miserable.

As I've also said elsewhere, the OTA updates are a real game changer. When I first purchased my Model 3 AWD LR, it didn't have a Dashcam or an Alarm system. I setup a gopro for a dashcam and was considering an aftermarket alarm system. After someone tweeted Elon and asked, he directed his engineers to create TeslaCam, which is an always on dashcam using the autopilot cameras (of which there are 8 I believe). Now if there is something bad, I can push a little icon and the last 10 minutes of footage will be permanently saved (it deletes old clips in a rolling fashion to keep free space on the disk). Then Sentry mode was rolled out and suddenly, I've got a free vehicle alarm system which will send notifications to my phone when it is triggered. This is great! The features of the vehicle continued to increase. It is kind of a pain in the butt to crack the windows because after you close the door the car rolls all of the windows up. The new V10 software has a "vent" mode where it will open all of the windows a crack with 1 push of a button in the app (this can also be done remotely if you so choose) and ditto to roll the windows up remotely. Then there was the time consumer reports said the Model 3 had poor braking distance and showed it. About two days later, a software update was released and Elon admitted the algorithm driving the braking wasn't ideal so they'd fixed it. Consumer reports re-tested and agreed the problem they brought up was indeed fixed. How many cars get safer after you purchase them? This really is the future.

There are lots of reasons to love a Tesla, believing in the future Elon is attempting to build is one of my bigger ones. It isn't the only one however :)

Hopefully that helps answer your question?

I don't drive a lot and aim to drive even less, I guess i shouldn't take a test drive...

Reply on news.ycombinator.com