Comment by parsimo2010 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by parsimo2010 | Hacker News Reader

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If you're not aware of the drama, then it really isn't meant for you. The following threads have some background (and dang has linked a few more threads leading up to these): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21175225 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21176712

The tl;dr (but still pretty long) is that Stack Overflow instituted a new Code of Conduct that required the use of a person's [preferred] pronouns. This change in the Code of Conduct was well intentioned but some people took issue with how it was implemented without much community input. A mod (Monica Cellio) had some level-headed discussion/questions about writing in a gender neutral style vs. affirmatively using a person's pronouns. She was fired with basically no due process, and it's pretty clear that she wasn't being mean or intentionally violating the Code of Conduct. A bunch of other mods got upset with how she was fired and they quit. SO has now issued two non-apologies and is rushing out a new Code of Conduct with a short timeframe for feedback, which is almost sure to make more people angry- plus they haven't been very concrete about which, if any, mods will be getting their jobs back after this fiasco. I don't envy SO's position- they have to keep mods happy, but if they walk back their original CoC change they would be telling the entire LGBTQ+ community that they are valued less than a few mods. However, this is entirely SO's fault with the way they have handled things- including not firing a mod that used more hateful language which makes their enforcement of the CoC inconsistent- so don't feel too bad for them.

I've been trying to sort out all these recent posts today and I think your summary is a pretty good one.

At the risk of being downvoted, as a cisgender same-sex attracted member of the "LGBTQ+ community", I suspect only a relatively small number of outspoken transgender activists would have a problem with revisiting this policy change with the aim of restoring goodwill in the community. We are so often lumped together by broader society as LGBTQ+ (and variations) that many people outside the world of gender and sexual minorities don't realize how much conflict there is between the LGB people and the T people.

It seems ludicrous to me that anybody should care about the pronouns of anonymous question-askers on the internet. But then again I also don't see much sense in performing tons of free moderation labor for StackExchange.

It seems pretty simple to me.

If you don't know what pronoun to use then the correct one is "they", and if you do know then using the wrong one or deliberately going out of your way to avoid one is just rude.

Obviously, lots of answers will flow perfectly naturally without using pronouns and those should be fine like that.

I understand your intention is positive, and I enjoyed the nuance of your post.

As a member of the 'entire LGBTQ+ community', we're not monolithic, or even close to it. SO is the first mainstream website (at least in the circles I run in) that has even attempted this kind of thing.

I'm willing to cut them a little slack as they navigate a topic which has been incredibly fraught.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that rolling back to the old CoC would make every LGBTQ+ person feel unvalued. Everyone, regardless of community membership or not (you can probably tell that I'm struggling for appropriate language here), has differing levels of sensitivity to any issue. Some people are glad when others make an effort to do the right thing, others won't be pleased unless their individual needs are met 100%, and some are angry that society is moving in one direction and they can't be openly bigoted anymore.

However, if you're looking at it from a policy perspective, rolling back the CoC or not can be viewed as a signal, which every person is free to interpret as they wish. This is probably going to be dependent on whether you like the changes or not (some LGBTQ+ people have spoken up and said that the changes to the CoC are actually harmful). My interpretation: rolling back the CoC signals that SO wants to go back to a point when the mods were happier, work things out with the mods from there (there are several other complaints the mods have), and that the LGBTQ+ issues take a backseat. Not rolling things back signals that SO wants the LGBTQ+ community to feel valued and included, but tells the mods that their complaints won't be dealt with the way that they want. I don't think it's possible for SO to send the message that everyone is valued equally- even if they say it their actions won't reflect it.

Sure, fair enough. Sorry to make you have to contort so much to provide a correct-seeming response.

but if you "cut them a little slack" then there is only overflow left

that's why it explodes

> fired with basically no due process

> mods will be getting their jobs back

Are mods paid for their work? Is it a formal 'job'?

Mods are volunteers, but most mods on SO take their responsibilities very seriously. The terminology that has been used during the last few days has been "firing" rather than "removal of moderation privileges," so I stuck with that.

Monica mentioned in her post that she was the second choice candidate for a community manager position, which is an actual job at SO, but I'm not clear on whether she was actually offered a job and if she accepted. Either way, this indicates she was a fairly active mod if she was being considered for a job.

What is being fired in this context? Are these moderators employed by SE? Or do we mean she was banned as a moderator?

I refuse to use pronouns for people outside the binary and I'll only use the pronouns they have claimed.

I think this is a state and corporate power issue. I have never in my life been compelled to say certain words or risk losing my professional reputation, access to SO and more, but I can't, in good conscience, participate in this Orwellian social experiment I have never been asked my opinion of and for which, even the slightest deviation from the company line earns one virtual persona non grata status.

I'll use 'they' and be done with it.

This should read 'the pronouns of the binary identity they are now claiming.'

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