Telecom Lobbyists Successfully Remove Canada from Wireless Pricing Report
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I tried living there and that sheen quickly fades. Especially after living in a US city. It's a joke if you think anyone in the world is even attempting to try to imitate Quebec. Montreal is nice because of what is left from the past greatness in the pre 1970s and because of its decline it's now a dirt cheap urban playground with economy-class hipster NYC lite for the unemployed artists whose parents can afford paying their $400/m shared living rent.
Otherwise the economy is incredibly behind the times and incredibly lucky for the political influence it's established over the years being the special child who gets preferential treatment despite having none of the excuses the have-not east coast provinces have, despite receiving the most aid of all of the provinces.
There's a very good reason MTL rents are 20x cheaper than NYC despite the large stock of high quality old buildings. And it has nothing to do with what they’ve achieved recently.
It annoyed me to no end when I lived there but the locals didn't seem to worry.
It seemed like everything you might want to buy that had a brand attached to it was like 20-40% more expensive in Australia, for no particular reason. (Apple products, Intel CPUs and commodities like RAM, SSD and GPU pricing were exempt - those have pretty straight-forward global pricing.)
But.. say, random things like B&H Speakers? Or whatever else. Probably 40% more! Etc. So many things were so much more expensive in Australia for seemingly no particular reason. Freight costs didn't make up for all of that cost disparity - there was something else at play.
I almost left the day job I was sent to do in Melbourne to work on building a price search engine for the Australian market. I couldn't really find anything that was useful/structured enough back then (2012).
I'm curious, has this opportunity been filled since then?
As a Canadian living in Australia since 2011, I have to disagree. Politically Canada is much more of a protectionist nanny state than Australia.
For mobile service in particular (i.e., the topic of this dicussion), Australia is much more competitive than Canada despite also being a very large, sparsely populated country. I pay $25/month for unlimited calls and 18 GB of 4G data (https://www.aldimobile.com.au/plans/value-packs/). Unlike Canada, Australia allows strong, foreign competitors to provide mobile service (e.g., Vodafone and Optus).
Other ways in which Australia is less protectionist than Canada: - parallel private healthcare system - parallel private education system (although not at university level) - buy alcohol anywhere, not just at government owned stores - no dairy and poultry "supply management" - foreign owned supermarkets (e.g., Aldi)
Australia is far from perfect (e.g., the natural gas cartel is far too powerful) but on the whole there's far less government interference that protects cozy domestic oligopolies compared Canada.
I think where Australia suffers is in things like imported goods (often there's an extra 20-40% markup beyond the maybe 5% higher shipping cost. Or sometimes it's shipped directly from China, but still way more expensive. I think many brand owners have just decided Australia will be able to tolerate a higher cost than the rest of the world.
Oh yeah, crazy that somewhere in the middle of nowhere is more expensive than one that is not.
Want to play country music on your radio station? Woah there, podner. There's already a country station in this town, and if you play country music, too, there won't be enough advertising money to go around. So the incumbent stays, and the idea of competition allowing the better station to survive can go pound sand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndQv6wwaNyM
Needless to say that Verizon backed out of the deal immediately.
When I was travelling in the U.S. a few weeks ago, I was able to buy a month's unlimited data and North American calling and SMS on some random MVNO from some random phone shop in middle of nowhere NY, including a new SIM and activation, for less than one pays for a month with a cap here in Ontario.
Even the corrupt, cronyistic telecom arrangements in the U.S.† are dramatically better than those in Canada.
† Not that the U.S. is particularly bad for this, by world standards.
The situation in Quebec is slightly better thanks to a 4th telecom company, Videotron, which brings mobile plans and internet prices lower than in the rest of Canada.
It's funny how sometimes you'll see the exactly same "promotion" offerings from the Robelus trio...
Tons of ways to Paris. Not so for Vancouver.
And both AC and WestJet were heavily invested in developing a 737MAX fleet...
Saskatchewan also sees better prices and promotions due to the presence of Province-owned SaskTel iirc.
Edit: also, the three major carriers (Rogers, Telus, Bell) generally offer different packages in SK than they do for the rest of the country, to remain competitive with SaskTel. Another fun thing: while Rogers has some towers in the province, the LTE towers are all generally owned by SaskTel and there’s an agreement in place to let the other use them. In exchange, SaskTel customers get to use Bell and Telus towers in the rest of the country without incurring roaming charges. That used to not be the case and we’d be limited to 250MB of data out of province.
More than telecommunications, it’s irritating how much of cable and network TV is owned by these companies, with lucrative US licensing and distribution rights for many properties so they can sell you a four-way bundle of home phone, cell phone, TV and Internet. So few companies can offer all of the above, and while it’s nice that we’ve CRTC-mandated limited competitive sharing to a limited extent on Internet lines, for everything else the CRTC is incredibly anti-consumer, only going after the worst behaviour when it’s been happening for a decade as “normal”.
Canadian airport usage is supported through user taxes rather than general revenue.
There are some startups now in Canada offering lower fares but it's not that much cheaper and they frequently fly to international destinations, which are more lucrative anyhow.
Canada has 33MM people with like 8 airports spread out across the size of continental europe (700MM+ people)
An example? Cheese. Under CETA (the Canada-EU free trade agreement), only Canadian dairy producers can import cheese from the EU into Canada. These producers will set its price artificially high as to match the price of Canadian cheese plus a premium. This way, they ensure consumers will buy Canadian cheese instead, as it appears to be cheaper.
It's just crazy how much lobbying can do.
Should Canadians pay a bit of a premium to be able to supply some of the things that we depend on to live ourselves, in our own way, on our own terms? For food I think yes. I am happy to know that the milk and cheese I consume did not come from American mega farms with all their problems.
Sure, but how much is this subsidized from general US tax revenues?
I'm actually one of the people who don't have much of a problem with Canada's dairy (and poultry) regime, with its supply-side management:
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_management_(Canada)
The fact of the matter is that just about everyone (US, EU) subsidies their farmers from general tax revenue. The US supposedly gives as much in subsidies as the entire Canadian market.
If Canada were to open its market to foreign product, Canadian farmers would probably be wiped out because of cheaper imports. So if Canada would want a domestic industry, they too would also have do subsidize their own farmers--and that would be done from general tax receipts.
So the taxes of someone who is lactose intolerant would be going to help produce milk. Someone who is vegan / vegetarian would be helping to grow chickens.
With the current system, the only people paying more are the folks who actually by the product(s).
The comment I wanted to make there is the main reason why Rogers signed that agreement was they got unused Toronto spectrum licenses from Videotron.
The big 3 are monsters, but the set-asides that the government does in spectrum auctions imo does more damage in making spectrum more expensive than it does in supporting anyone not named Rogers/Bell/Telus.
I moved back to Quebec a month ago and was doing a survey of the mobile plans: Videotron, Bell, Rogers, Telus, Virgin Mobile, Koodo, Fido and Fizz. It was hilarious, 6/8 companies had the exact same 4 + 5GB for 55$ deal.
In the past, every single graph of pricing I've seen shows them all moving together in lock step. It's unbelievable to me that after all these years nothing has been done to solve this. Here's hoping this election this will get more attention from the politicians...
[1] https://www.google.ca/amp/s/globalnews.ca/news/5149144/bc-in...
[unAMPed link] https://globalnews.ca/news/5149144/bc-inter-provincial-liquo...
With ISPs, the CRTC (~FCC) has at least forced the incumbent telcos so allow independents access to their Layer 1:
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-access_network
I think the US would benefit from such a policy, and it did exist for a short spell around 2000.
Doesn't help much in the area of mobile phones though.
With regards to air transportation, I would think that most traffic flows more north-south and less east-west, so I'm not sure how many airlines can survive given Canada's population and the distribution thereof. Certainly we do have some 'regionals', Porter out of CYTZ being fairly well-known.
I remember only 10 years ago that Canadian telcos still considered moving between state lines as ‘roaming’. I don’t know if it’s still the case.
Whereas US family all still have the same phone number they got in HS/college.
The only mobile phone innovation in Canada is new ways to charge customers in ways that nobody else does. E.g. charging 15 cents for an incoming text message unless you have a text messaging plan.
Edit: did the low UK price offend someone?
Wouldn't it be much more efficient to start a telco with just 1 plan: unlimited everything for a fixed price.
Literally just charge $30/month or so (I haven't done the math on what is economically viable) for a flat fee plan. No strings attached, except maybe rate limit after a substantial amount of data to prevent abuse (like 50gb/day).
Also: no contracts, let people cancel when they want. And don't sell devices, just the SIM card.
This way you'll have:
- no need for usage metering systems
- very simple billing systems
- minimal need for marketing
- much less support calls (at least no angry customers due to unexpected costs)
- a very simple self-service portal
Now, I know I'm being naive here, it'll be next to impossible to start a service like this because the physical infrastructure (the base stations) are owned by the ancient behemoth telcos that have roamed the earth for past century.
But just imagine how great a telco can be if you were just to trim the fat, legacy and greed away.
Maybe. If you look at the total available bandwidth of the satellite systems vs their potential subscriber base, I think metering will probably happen at a lower level than many people expect.
Perhaps they'll upgrade to much better radios in the future and the whole issue will be resolved.
Here's a recent review of available unlimited plans in the UK: https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2019/09/comparison-of-...
30mbit is enough to stream 4K video, so there is currently no actual use-case for more bandwidth on mobile devices. Those who are 'abusing' the unlimited plan to replace their wired internet connection at home will now have a choice: 30mbit 'slow' internet from their mobile plan, or get a separate fiber/cable/adsl line for more bandwidth.
The base stations are very much capable of sharing their available bandwidth equally through TDM, so it wouldn't impact other users that much.
Again, I'm probably being naive here...
More generally, I think claims that there's no valid use-case of X are essentially always wrong. It's fine not wanting to provide a service if you're upfront about it, but framing it as anyone who does this is doing something dodgy is just a way of diverting blame.
Well I typically only use ~1GB or so per month, but I want my webpages and RSS feeds to load at the fastest speed my device supports.
They seem to have stopped offering my plan, but I pay around £22 per month, SIM only. Ihave used in excess of 100GB per month a few times (we used it as our home internet while the cable line was being sorted out), and am very happy. I even get the "Feel At Home" package that means I can use up to 12GB a month in the US, Australia and a ton of other countries for no extra charge.
But as a small business customer I have no access to their web portal (!?) and they seem to have stopped selling this plan.
In France, you can get an unlimited subscription for 20€ / month.
As far as I remember, no strings attached, no phone either unless you want to, unlimited voice, texts and data. There is some kind of data cap, it is pretty high and if you reach it, you don't have to pay anything, your speed might just be limited for the month (although it has never happened to me afaik).
It is also unlimited in many other countries.
I was in California for this summer - I paid about the same for a cell service there as I do here...
All numbers in USD.
For a quick comparison of "premium" cell providers, an unlimited (15gb before throttling) verizon wireless line is $70 per month [0]. A comparable Canadian plan for Bell is $56 per month for 10gb before throttling, or $71 per month for 20 gb before throttling.
Most people don't pay that much in reality, because of group discounts and so on, but that applies in both cases.
The story is similar if we look at budget cell phone providers. Google Fi (US) provides unlimited talk and text for $20gb/month with data for $10gb/month. Freedom mobile (Canada) doesn't provide as much flexibility, and you have to select your amount of data up front, but for any amount of data it's cheaper. E.g. for 2gb it's $30/month instead of $40. [2]
[0] https://www.verizonwireless.com/plans/ - change the number of lines to 1, this is 15gb data before throttling per their faq https://www.verizonwireless.com/support/verizon-plan-unlimit...
[1] Remember to convert CAD to USD https://www.bell.ca/Mobility/Cell_phone_plans/Unlimited-plan...
[2] Click on "Freedom Plans" here, remember to convert CAD to USD https://www.freedommobile.ca/en-CA/plans
Good prices and terms at least
I'm actually tempted to switch, but already on an okay plan from Public where I've learned to ration.
Just wish Freedom sold a trial plan or something for a month so I could see what it's like living with them. Paying $50 + $10 SIM + taxes discourages me.
Is it a relatively new thing?
PS. I used to be a customer but switched away because of their very limited coverage.
Meanwhile, residents of other countries just go to the mall, walk out with a plan that'll meet their needs and improves every year, and doesn't think about it again :)
I would invest in a carrier pigeon or something at that price. Sending tasty memes by pigeon...the future is now.
No, they buy major-league sports teams with the extra money.
What do your telecom providers do? Just provide telecom services?
What would you say if your PM/president candidates said they'll cut your cell phone bill if they get re-elected?
Ours just did. We only laugh because we don't believe them, not because it's a problem.
Yeah, to be believable it would need to be a explicit promise to significantly and permanently reduce the revenue of BCE Inc. - and that kind of promise would have BCE shareholders in an uproar.
As far as I can tell, they don't seem too concerned.
And US/international roaming... is so high that I just go without or buy a local SIM.
I've found trying to function internationally without my normal SIM to be essentially unworkable due to losing my ability to receive 2FA SMS codes, and since moving from the Lumia to the Pixel line-up, the phones I use no longer have dual-SIM capabilities.
The problem with Freedom is that their network is tiny, but even Telus and Rogers are both offering 10GB for $75 right now.
(In the interest of keeping numbers in a format we can all compare and relate to).
I would point out that 95 CAD is 71 USD though, so you're paying about the same as the verizon line I linked.
And once you hit 15gb, you’re still getting 600kbps.
Freedom limits you to 256 (or 128 outside their limited footprint) once you go over.
T-mobile’s $40/month plans (if you can string in 4 friends/family) will have unlim streaming video, 5gb of roaming in Canada, an SD Netflix subscription, 1 hour of in-flight wifi and start throttling you at 50gb.
edit: That's $40 with taxes and fees included. They advertise it that way!
Each of the above are unthinkable in Canada. We choose phone plans based on their restrictions, not their extras.
I know, population density and all, but compare to Australia, Russia or Iceland, and Canadians are still getting hosed.
Don't even get me started on France. Going in a month and will soon order a SIM card. And the provider will mail anywhere in France at no charge...
2. Through Voip.ms, you could setup a local Canadian number and give that out to people to call you. It'll cost you a dollar a month and about 1cent/minute for forwarding the calls.
I have one that goes straight to their voicemail-to-email gateway for calls I never want to answer :)
But the prices in e.g France, eastern Europe and Taiwan all put us to shame.
There were some dawn raids on these companies last year by EU antitrust authorities, but they didn't find any actionable evidence. :/
But, uh, Sweden has a higher cost of living, and a lower population density.
Sweden has a population density of 23 people per square kilometer, Canada has a population density of 4 people per square kilometer.
For a plan with exactly the same conditions and data amount, I am paying 10 GBP = 16.43 CAD instead of 46 CAD after tax. And that was a competitively priced plan in Quebec.
Telco in Canada is embarrassing.
That's the thing: A luxury plan in Canada is a basic plan overseas.
When I visit France and buy a 10 EUR plan that's "Good for a Canadian" for my 1-2 week stay from a random provider, people look at me funny because the brand is associated with the unemployed and refugees.
Come on. There is no provider associated with the unemployed and refugees in France. 10€ pre-paid should get you unlimited call and texts and something like 1Go of data and no one will bat an eye.
Plans are actually quite cheap too. I pay 15€ for unlimited everything and you can get as low as 2€ for 2h of call, unlimited texts and 50Mo of data.
I just wish free.fr would mail me a SIM.
Absolutely not. We aren't importing data from the US. You can't tie exchange rate to CoL.
Electronics cost the same amount regardless of what currency you buy them in, which is at least a good portion of the cost of running a cell company. Wages are also similar in the US and Canada.
The Canadian GDP per person is slightly greater than the American GDP per person after we convert everything to the same asset (e.g. USD) [1]. So it's not like we are poorer than americans and we need to adjust for that. It just happens to be the case that a loonie is less than a dollar bill, and a toonie more than a dollar bill.
[0] There is precedent for doing this, though not in Canada, typically it is done after hyper inflation to make amounts of currency seem more reasonable.
[1] https://www.google.ca/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&m...
He said something that no Canadian ever says in this situation: “Go wild, it’s unlimited”.
My prior trip to BC scouting for a home (a month earlier) cost me hundreds of dollars in international calls and data usage. The phone plans in Canada are shockingly bad. Being able to circumvent them was a godsend.
As a reference, typical European pricing was around $2/MB at the time, IIRC. The US of course had their typical "plans" that made price comparisons hard.
It's fascinating that the network owners in Canada have managed to keep prices so high, for so long.
We were launching a mobile J2ME-based service back then; I remember thinking we'd get back to Canada when they'd got their data pricing in order but that never happened...
The NPR app keeps pre-buffering several hundred mb of audio when I start it and chews through my data. Ugh.
And then there's the time my bank forced me to update their app and I wasn't on wifi...
Things have diverted more. French plans now have 25x the data for lower prices than Canadian plans...