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> I don't know about the advice to take the job where you learn the most. It's great advice for startup founders and company owners who can get naive young new graduates for below market rates. Not so great for the graduates themselves.

Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

For what it is worth I don't think a startup (or, for that matter, any place that treats you poorly) is the best place for a new developer. Having been part of a couple of startups, I don't know if they are the best place to learn (especially for new developers). Often, chaos reigns, it's hard to get direction, and stuff is often on fire. Not an optimal learning environment.

This varies for different risk profiles, learning styles and long term career desires, but if forced to choose I'd probably pick a small consulting company as the place where you'd learn the most. (BTW, you'd probably get paid decently as well, since there'd be no options at the end of the rainbow.)

I actually wrote about this here:

https://www.culturefoundry.com/cultivate/digital-agency-life... That said, my advice is anecdotal and based not on science or statistics, but on my experience. So it may not be worth much more than you paid for it.

Absolutley agree. Before working for a small consultantancy I worked for two startups and a big company. At the startups I had next to no guidance but I guess I learned self reliance. At the big company the pace of work was too slow (although good for me at the time as my first Job). Now at this agency I'm earning more than I ever have before, I get to work with a variety of technologies with different clients and different teams. All the engineers in the shop are very pragmatic. No over engineering because there isn't time for that. Plus at the one I'm at there is a nice atmosphere and social life. As a new engineer you don't get put on some bullshit intern project in the corner with no real world connection. You get put on a real project with real impact, you have to take responsibility for your work and you are trusted with stuff you're only just about ready for. Nothing compares to building a different key component of a production system 5 times+ a year. If it fails that's your responsibility so you learn pretty quickly how to build robust software fast and what counts towards that and what is just fluff.

I truly think it does. You will usually raise your salary most by changing jobs anyway and when you start out you most likely don't have that much need of a high salary.

A start up might absolutely not be the right way to learn though. Joining a mature and disciplined engineering organization might instead be a much better choice for learning.

The world is full of people trapped doing meaningless robotic things as it is. On top of it they are all living longer wondering what the fuck for. Just ask a friendly neighbourhood shrink for the stats.

Your kind of advice my friend contributes to the trap.

These days, there are not a ton of meaningless, robotic jobs that pay well, especially not in software.

I think Steve Jobs said the only way to be great at what you do is to do what you love. And I would add the only way to really amp up your income is to be as great as you possibly can be at what you do, and always look to be better.

I had a couple jobs I took mainly for the money. They were soul-deadening. Maybe some people can handle that, but for me it's a recipe for burnout.

The interesting thing is I made, by far, the most money running my own company and doing work I actually enjoyed.

I’m sorry if this is extraordinarily offensive, but my understanding is that, putting aside his extraordinary success in business, Steve Jobs was a mentally ill manipulator and child abuser. I don’t see why I’d put that much weight in his advice on things beyond maybe the above.

I'm not offended. Steve Jobs was unquestionably a flawed person, but also a genius. I personally try to learn from everyone, even people who may have had grave flaws.

I think the only way to increase your income is to figure out how to more effectively market your skills.

Some of the most talented people make squat and yet, lots of mediocre talent is making bank because they worked the system and leveraged what they could to make more money.

I don't know many really skillful, hard-working people who make squat. But, there are definitely other factors. Industry friends is a big one, people who can introduce you to opportunities. Good negotiation skills also matter. Being well-spoken helps a lot.

But the most important thing is impressing people once you get an opportunity. When you get on the stage, you gotta be able to sing. That opens doors more than any other one factor in my experience.

I think this advice is cutting your nose off to spite your face. I took my first job to learn. I was underpaid, and over worked. But I got to work on all sorts of stuff I wouldn’t have otherwise been able to touch for years, I learned a ridiculous amount, and when I left that job I took an enormous leap in salary. Since then I’ve managed to keep it going up and a very steady pace. Advising against such working conditions in general is narrow minded and short sighted. That company got a huge amount of value out of me, and they didn’t pay a fair salary for it. But in place of that salary, I got a huge amount of value out of them. My goal (especially at the time) wasn’t to get the fairest market rate, it was to increase my market value as much as possible. A goal I achieved, which has meant I’m now out earning most of my peers, and I generally have much more control over my working conditions than they do.

> I think this advice is cutting your nose off to spite your face.

Ah, the standard phrase used when people try to get you to work against your interests.

The rest of your post amounts to: "Doing the imprudent thing X worked out for me this one time, so everyone should do it."

Actually what you’re suggesting is working against your own interests purely for the sake of working against somebody else’s too. There was also nothing imprudent about my decision. I saw an opportunity to develop my skills and took it. If it wasn’t working out, quitting would have just put my back to exactly where I started. My advice is that if you see an opportunity to advance your career, you should focus on what you’ll personally get out of it. Countering your apparent blanket stance that you shouldn’t do things that don’t benefit you in the short term, and that you shouldn’t enter into employment agreements simply because an employer may be getting “too much” out of it, regardless of any potential long term personal benefit. Personally I find more success in looking at what I can get out of an opportunity, rather than what I can deny others.

It's very difficult to get young people to deeply understand this. I wish I had when I was younger.

I agree with you that it's not a good idea to pull overtime or work high stress positions for little compensation.

However i don't think that the only place where you can learn is at a startup. On the contrary, i think there is a lot more opportunity for learning at larger companies.

You would have to be very lucky to find a startup with devs that are both good and have the free time to mentor you well. But in a FAANG or a similar company in the second or third tier, you will be working with a lot of smart people who have both the time and a career interest in helping you grow.

Personally i am ambivalent on the value of wealth as an end in itself. For people who value knowledge as an end in itself, i do think it's reasonable career advice to deliberately seek out a company where they can get that support from their peers. It definitely makes going to work to earn the money every day less of a chore.