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Comment by james-mcelwain | Hacker News Reader

The key difference being audiophiles often fail A/B tests comparing audio quality. You would definitely notice how nice an expensive mechanical keyboard feels. Whether you think that is worth luxury pricing is another story, but the quality is at least more immediately appreciable.

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I would be interested in seeing an AB test of keyboard enthusiast between say a 200$ keyboard and one that is 5x as expensive. Audiophiles also claimed that they would definitely notice a difference.

You would have to be careful. Most people buying cheap kits get the same stabilizers that everyone uses in every high end build, its like a $20 upgrade. They also clip the stabilizers, make sure they are lubed properly, and some people put pieces of cloth band-aids under them to soften impacts and make it more quiet. Some people also lube switches which is a little harder to do right and takes some tools.

If you wanted to test, it should be on equal footing. A $200 keyboard with the same switches and modifications as a $2000 keyboard. Same keycaps as well.

If we're talking kits, honestly you might even want to use the same board and just have the case be different.

Even with all that, there's a good chance they will be able to tell that the keyboards are different, simply because the acoustics of the cases are going to be different. They just won't be able to subjectively measure the quality.

$200 might be too low though, I think the realm of it not being noticeable is probably closer to $300-400+.

I can't speak for him and I'm not saying I agree with this, but I believe what he means is that what they buy it for is actually what they get.

Audiophile are buying it for better audio, but the quality isn't actually better.

Keyboard enthusiast buy it for different materials, finishes, color scheme, sets of switches, sets of keycaps, etc... They all can be done in a better or inferior quality.

I wouldn't agree with it because it's mostly defining the object by its aesthetics features.

Yes, this is what I'm saying. I'm not suggesting that the margins of quality are worth a 5x price point (it's not), but it's not quite the same as some of the voodoo beliefs among audiophiles that a 20k tube amp makes an appreciable difference.

As a disclosure, I own expensive audiophile gear, but, again, for the aesthetics primarily. I would be much happier with audiophiles if they just said they like the aesthetics.

The main factors that affect keyboard feel are

1. Switches (can be lubed or spring swapped to customise feel) 2. Plate (holds switches together, can be aluminium, carbon fiber, brass, polycarbonate and more) 3. Case (heavily affects acoustics) 4. Foam (put in case to affect acoustics)

And you can definitely notice how nice an expensive pair of headphones sound compared to cheap models. If you meant stuff like buying expensive cables for no measurable benefits mechanical keyboard enthusiasts often spend hundreds on keycaps which won't provide any benefit beyond looking good compared to cheaper sets. Mechanical keyboard enthusiasts and audiophiles are very much alike.

When I think audiophile, I think beyond high end, like Sennheiser's $59,000 headphones.

Of course even a non-audiophile can notice the difference between $30 and $200 headphones, but I wonder how many people could tell the difference between $2000 and $60k headphones.

I'm curious how many could distinguish a $400 keyboard from a $1200 keyboard. Once you get into a certain price point, the returns diminish so quickly that I figure most would be unable to tell a difference.

There are switches that cost several dollars each that feel distinctly different. In general though I agree, with a specific set of switches, there is likely not a quantifiable improvement to be had by spending $800 more.

However, each keyboard case + switch + keycap setup is going to feel and sound slightly different. So it isn't really an objective improvement but they will likely be distinguishable from one another. Some people are into it for the way it sounds.

Its not necessarily that more expensive switches = better experience, its more about getting exactly the type of switch you want. IMO the best switches I've ever used were $30 for a 61 key compact keyboard's worth.

> However, each keyboard case + switch + keycap setup is going to feel and sound slightly different. So it isn't really an objective improvement but they will likely be distinguishable from one another. Some people are into it for the way it sounds.

This sounds pretty much like what headphone audiophiles say.

> However, each driver + housing + amp setup is going to feel and sound slightly different. So it isn't really an objective improvement but they will likely be distinguishable from one another.

Brands like Sennheiser have a very different sound from Audio-Technica which have different sound than Campfire Audio etc etc. Which is "better" is very subjective but there is a difference between say a pair of Sennheiser HD650 and Beyerdynamic DT1990

For headphones, the audiophiles are right. They are even right about quality for a $2000 set of headphones, if its the right model vs a fashion brand. Each price tier tends to have a certain level of quality, and within that tier you can expect different sounds still. Some of the super high end stuff has noticeable amounts of detail over a wider range, so it can be actually "better" than a specific $500 set of headphones. Some people still might like the cheaper one though. However, when it comes to the $2000 cables they are full of shit. People have hooked super high end audio equipment to spectrum analyzers and other instruments and audiophiles are objectively getting taken for a ride when it comes to really expensive cables.

IMO, people that spend $2000 on a keyboard are overspending, but they are also aware that its a fashion accessory.

Oh yes, I 100% agree with you on that. $2000 cables are just stupid. However, you can spend around $100 or so on really nice handmade cables that look and feel better than the stock cables, which seems comparable to spending lots of money on artisinal keycaps, no?

Its more comparable than you think. Those artisan cables with fancy bnc connectors and pretty colors are also available for keyboards. Some are like $40-50 but some are into the hundreds. They are sold for aesthetic reasons. I myself have some decent quality, but still pretty average cables because I think my white plastic cables look good with my white plastic $600 keyboard. My cables were probably $10-12 from amazon.

I think it really isn't comparable, because the audiophiles--certain of them anyway--are totally mired in defending that their expensive aesthetic changes make a difference. They'll even try to wrap themselves in science and argue that "hospital grade" electrical outlets, fancy plugs, or whatever, make a discernible difference in the "air" or "pace" of the music. Nevermind that these are mostly old guys with tin ears, obsessing over Yes or Steely Dan. Ready to defend to the very end that a $500 toslink (or ethernet!) cable is worse than a $1000 one and so much better than the $10 version. But don't you dare trot out the nasty words "double blind test" unless you'd like to hear semi-religious rants on how they're both useless but also easily passed by the golden ears who know every nuance of Fleetwood Mac's oeuvre.

On the other hand, nobody is claiming that a fancy keyboard makes for a better typist or a finer writer. The aesthetics are what they are.

we were only talking about spending a hundred or so for aesthetic and perceptible quality reasons, not advocating $2000 cables for objective reasons of sound quality.

Differences in headphones are real. Spending 20k on a custom tube amp is not.

I wouldn't really consider nice headphones to be a prime example of audiophile gear, tbh.

Putting definitely in italics dosent make it true. I would be curious about A/B/C test for different prices such as 600/300/100

Reasonable people can tell the difference between 600/300/100 speakers or amplifiers. Up in the audiophile range, the difference between a $20000 amp and a $2000 amp is mostly placebo effect.

Play the same source back to back between A and B, and it's incredibly easy to tell the difference between two different amps, speakers, CD players, record decks and even cartridges at various price bands. Frequently it was far from subtle, but quite extreme, particularly at the cheaper end, but still quite easy between £2,500 components (or cartridges in the hundreds).

The question as to which was more accurate, or which you prefer is an entirely different one.

Now I could never tell any difference between £5 standard interconnect and £100+ directional silliness, or beyond QED standard £1/m speaker cable. Needless to say I never bought any of that. So I've never understood the appeal of lunatic territory with £5k mains cables that look more suitable for mooring a ship.

I don’t think it’s different actually. Sure, jumping from a 20$ keyboard to a 200$ one makes a massive difference, but from 200$ to 2000$, the benefits are marginal, (outside of aesthetics). Similar comparisons can be made to any category of audio equipment.

I'm not saying it's not marginal, but if you spend time around audiophiles, they make lots of claims that aren't just "marginal" but simply not based in reality. I would not spend $2000 on a keyboard, but I believe people who do are doing it largely based on aesthetics, not the kind of imaginary science that audiophiles do.

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