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Comment by lewisflude | Hacker News Reader

I'm in the $600+ club too (Kepler that has a full brass bottom weight 6+kg, Kepler 65 with it's forged carbon top etc.)

It's a really strange hobby. A bunch of people who really value and love keyboards, the thing that sits between a human and a computer, a tool that many (developers, writers, gamers) use every day for hours on end.

Similar to how someone might invest in a nice knife if they love cooking, luxury-priced tools are quite a common category you see in hobbies.

The community is nice, and the pursuit of "endgame" continually drives supply, demand and the prices that go along with it up consistently. Next year, I wouldn't be surprised if we see several new $1000+ keyboards playing around with new finishes, materials and designs that cater to the high end of the hobby.

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> forged carbon top

You can't forge carbon. It's not malleable. It shatters if you try to forge it. Are you making a joke about people being gullible, or are there some exotic solid-state physics involved here that I don't know about?

Oh, apparently you mean molded plastic with a chopped carbon-fiber filler? Heh.

This is what I'm referring to! Commonly used in luxury cars, I think it looks great!

https://carbonfibergear.com/blogs/carbonfiber/what-is-forged...

And this is the keyboard!

https://store.projectkeyboard.com/collections/kepler-fc65/pr...

It's not forged in a forge, it's just called that. It's just molded carbon fiber in resin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forged_composite

I would be concerned about that. Carbon fiber isn't much better than asbestos, and while both are fine if sealed in a wall, we're talking about a keyboard taking daily wear and tear with the fibers sealed under a thin layer of glue.

A keyboard cannot possibly need the tensile strength, so why not just use plastic?

People break keyboards all the time. Reinforcing them with carbon fiber seems reasonable to me. You seem to be confusing carbon fiber, which is a mild irritant like fiberglass, with carbon nanotubes. It's goofy that the keyboard enthusiasts got taken in by the marketroid term “forged carbon”, though.

I have never once broken a keyboard. I can't imagine how I would -- sit on it? It's fixed on my desk.

If I did need a stronger keyboard, I'd rather have it reinforced with steel. That would have the extra benefit of keeping it in place.

Steel is a lot heavier and a lot weaker than carbon fiber. For you that's an advantage, but not for those of us who use our keyboards on trains, in cafés, in hostels, and in tents. The comforting weight of an IBM Type M keyboard gets old fast when it's stuffed in your backpack on a bike.

That probably also helps explain how we break keyboards.

Ah, okay. To me that's what my laptop keyboard is for, but I think I understand better now.

I used to travel with my mechanical keyboard a lot and the keyboard breaking while in a heavily stuffed backpack was definitely a big concern of mine.

In this case it's all about the look! Keyboards can also be made with a solid brass/stainless steel base, in which case it's about the weight which often affects feel, acoustics and overall "heft" of it as an object. Past a certain point, people make things out of cool materials/heavy just cause they can.

HN lambasts audiophiles every time stupid expensive audio gear comes up, yet here we are paying $hundreds for gimmick keyboard stuff.

SF developers making $100k or two a year just aren't in the same money league of the audiophiles spending $thousands on speaker wire.

EDIT: I'm not mad at any of the above groups I've mentioned; everybody gets their kicks from something, as well they should. I'm just mentioning what I see.

Since you pointed out, I was lambasting everyone in this thread in my own mind.

The key difference being audiophiles often fail A/B tests comparing audio quality. You would definitely notice how nice an expensive mechanical keyboard feels. Whether you think that is worth luxury pricing is another story, but the quality is at least more immediately appreciable.

I'm curious how many could distinguish a $400 keyboard from a $1200 keyboard. Once you get into a certain price point, the returns diminish so quickly that I figure most would be unable to tell a difference.

There are switches that cost several dollars each that feel distinctly different. In general though I agree, with a specific set of switches, there is likely not a quantifiable improvement to be had by spending $800 more.

However, each keyboard case + switch + keycap setup is going to feel and sound slightly different. So it isn't really an objective improvement but they will likely be distinguishable from one another. Some people are into it for the way it sounds.

Its not necessarily that more expensive switches = better experience, its more about getting exactly the type of switch you want. IMO the best switches I've ever used were $30 for a 61 key compact keyboard's worth.

> However, each keyboard case + switch + keycap setup is going to feel and sound slightly different. So it isn't really an objective improvement but they will likely be distinguishable from one another. Some people are into it for the way it sounds.

This sounds pretty much like what headphone audiophiles say.

> However, each driver + housing + amp setup is going to feel and sound slightly different. So it isn't really an objective improvement but they will likely be distinguishable from one another.

Brands like Sennheiser have a very different sound from Audio-Technica which have different sound than Campfire Audio etc etc. Which is "better" is very subjective but there is a difference between say a pair of Sennheiser HD650 and Beyerdynamic DT1990

For headphones, the audiophiles are right. They are even right about quality for a $2000 set of headphones, if its the right model vs a fashion brand. Each price tier tends to have a certain level of quality, and within that tier you can expect different sounds still. Some of the super high end stuff has noticeable amounts of detail over a wider range, so it can be actually "better" than a specific $500 set of headphones. Some people still might like the cheaper one though. However, when it comes to the $2000 cables they are full of shit. People have hooked super high end audio equipment to spectrum analyzers and other instruments and audiophiles are objectively getting taken for a ride when it comes to really expensive cables.

IMO, people that spend $2000 on a keyboard are overspending, but they are also aware that its a fashion accessory.

Oh yes, I 100% agree with you on that. $2000 cables are just stupid. However, you can spend around $100 or so on really nice handmade cables that look and feel better than the stock cables, which seems comparable to spending lots of money on artisinal keycaps, no?

Its more comparable than you think. Those artisan cables with fancy bnc connectors and pretty colors are also available for keyboards. Some are like $40-50 but some are into the hundreds. They are sold for aesthetic reasons. I myself have some decent quality, but still pretty average cables because I think my white plastic cables look good with my white plastic $600 keyboard. My cables were probably $10-12 from amazon.

I think it really isn't comparable, because the audiophiles--certain of them anyway--are totally mired in defending that their expensive aesthetic changes make a difference. They'll even try to wrap themselves in science and argue that "hospital grade" electrical outlets, fancy plugs, or whatever, make a discernible difference in the "air" or "pace" of the music. Nevermind that these are mostly old guys with tin ears, obsessing over Yes or Steely Dan. Ready to defend to the very end that a $500 toslink (or ethernet!) cable is worse than a $1000 one and so much better than the $10 version. But don't you dare trot out the nasty words "double blind test" unless you'd like to hear semi-religious rants on how they're both useless but also easily passed by the golden ears who know every nuance of Fleetwood Mac's oeuvre.

On the other hand, nobody is claiming that a fancy keyboard makes for a better typist or a finer writer. The aesthetics are what they are.

we were only talking about spending a hundred or so for aesthetic and perceptible quality reasons, not advocating $2000 cables for objective reasons of sound quality.

Differences in headphones are real. Spending 20k on a custom tube amp is not.

I wouldn't really consider nice headphones to be a prime example of audiophile gear, tbh.

I would be interested in seeing an AB test of keyboard enthusiast between say a 200$ keyboard and one that is 5x as expensive. Audiophiles also claimed that they would definitely notice a difference.

You would have to be careful. Most people buying cheap kits get the same stabilizers that everyone uses in every high end build, its like a $20 upgrade. They also clip the stabilizers, make sure they are lubed properly, and some people put pieces of cloth band-aids under them to soften impacts and make it more quiet. Some people also lube switches which is a little harder to do right and takes some tools.

If you wanted to test, it should be on equal footing. A $200 keyboard with the same switches and modifications as a $2000 keyboard. Same keycaps as well.

If we're talking kits, honestly you might even want to use the same board and just have the case be different.

Even with all that, there's a good chance they will be able to tell that the keyboards are different, simply because the acoustics of the cases are going to be different. They just won't be able to subjectively measure the quality.

$200 might be too low though, I think the realm of it not being noticeable is probably closer to $300-400+.

I can't speak for him and I'm not saying I agree with this, but I believe what he means is that what they buy it for is actually what they get.

Audiophile are buying it for better audio, but the quality isn't actually better.

Keyboard enthusiast buy it for different materials, finishes, color scheme, sets of switches, sets of keycaps, etc... They all can be done in a better or inferior quality.

I wouldn't agree with it because it's mostly defining the object by its aesthetics features.

Yes, this is what I'm saying. I'm not suggesting that the margins of quality are worth a 5x price point (it's not), but it's not quite the same as some of the voodoo beliefs among audiophiles that a 20k tube amp makes an appreciable difference.

As a disclosure, I own expensive audiophile gear, but, again, for the aesthetics primarily. I would be much happier with audiophiles if they just said they like the aesthetics.

The main factors that affect keyboard feel are

1. Switches (can be lubed or spring swapped to customise feel) 2. Plate (holds switches together, can be aluminium, carbon fiber, brass, polycarbonate and more) 3. Case (heavily affects acoustics) 4. Foam (put in case to affect acoustics)

I don’t think it’s different actually. Sure, jumping from a 20$ keyboard to a 200$ one makes a massive difference, but from 200$ to 2000$, the benefits are marginal, (outside of aesthetics). Similar comparisons can be made to any category of audio equipment.

I'm not saying it's not marginal, but if you spend time around audiophiles, they make lots of claims that aren't just "marginal" but simply not based in reality. I would not spend $2000 on a keyboard, but I believe people who do are doing it largely based on aesthetics, not the kind of imaginary science that audiophiles do.

And you can definitely notice how nice an expensive pair of headphones sound compared to cheap models. If you meant stuff like buying expensive cables for no measurable benefits mechanical keyboard enthusiasts often spend hundreds on keycaps which won't provide any benefit beyond looking good compared to cheaper sets. Mechanical keyboard enthusiasts and audiophiles are very much alike.

When I think audiophile, I think beyond high end, like Sennheiser's $59,000 headphones.

Of course even a non-audiophile can notice the difference between $30 and $200 headphones, but I wonder how many people could tell the difference between $2000 and $60k headphones.

Putting definitely in italics dosent make it true. I would be curious about A/B/C test for different prices such as 600/300/100

Reasonable people can tell the difference between 600/300/100 speakers or amplifiers. Up in the audiophile range, the difference between a $20000 amp and a $2000 amp is mostly placebo effect.

Play the same source back to back between A and B, and it's incredibly easy to tell the difference between two different amps, speakers, CD players, record decks and even cartridges at various price bands. Frequently it was far from subtle, but quite extreme, particularly at the cheaper end, but still quite easy between £2,500 components (or cartridges in the hundreds).

The question as to which was more accurate, or which you prefer is an entirely different one.

Now I could never tell any difference between £5 standard interconnect and £100+ directional silliness, or beyond QED standard £1/m speaker cable. Needless to say I never bought any of that. So I've never understood the appeal of lunatic territory with £5k mains cables that look more suitable for mooring a ship.

Your parent comments need lambasting too, computer-nerdity isn't supposed to be this super bougie luxury hobby

I'm OK with people making fun of my nerd hobby. I have also spent $800 on a 100 year-old fountain pen so I can do some spencerian copperplate calligraphy. I got functional utility out of that purchase, but most of fountain pen collecting is about nerds spending craploads of money on things that look nice.

Perhaps people shouldn't have started paying nerds a good amount of money to do super nerdy things. I don't know what to tell you.

I'm under no illusion that I needed $170 colored pieces of plastic on my keyboard when the keyboard came with a perfectly good set that wasn't as pretty.

I'm really cheap in most aspects of my life though. I know people that buy new motorcycles every year or so or put a bunch of time and money into customizing a car. Lots of people that make a third of what I do think nothing of spending $300 in drinks at a club on the weekend a couple times a month. Computer bougieness seems like a bargain. And I'm even a cheap bastard about that most of the time. I refused to upgrade this GPU generation because the prices almost doubled.

>Perhaps people shouldn't have started paying nerds a good amount of money to do super nerdy things.

I've got discount pitchforks. Get your pitchforks. 3 for $5.

I've never seen a keyboard enthusiast claim that the results of their typing are superior to the results of typing on a cheap keyboard. They prefer the experience, or the aesthetics, but don't generally make falsifiable claims about objective facts.

If you want to spend money on speaker wire because it looks good, and fits your room decor, or glows, fine. If you think the results sound better, you deserve all the mockery you get.

LMAO

For what it's worth, the first keyboard enthusiast I met in college claimed that their code was better as a result of all the clicky noises it made.

I guess it is possible if the thing is making him happier while developing.

most people who are keyboard enthusiasts justify their enthusiasm because it is faster and more ergonomic, sure they don't say they get better code (although maybe if you're wrists aren't killing you, you do) but they do say they get the code quicker without debilitating physics effects which seems to me to claims that could be falsifiable (given big enough studies) about objective facts.

The one set of dirt-cheap headphones everyone seems to agree on is the KOSS KSC75[0]. What is the KSC75 of the keyboard world? Is there such a thing? There was a story on HN[1] a month or so ago about the Amazon Basics keyboard that everyone ate alive for being so... cheap?

[0]https://www.koss.com/headphones/ear-clip/ksc75

[1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20866319

You would think (rationally at least) that people obsessed with the optimal interface between user and computer would focus on non-QWERTY layouts instead of dropping dough on intricate mechanical keyboards

(yeah, cue "por que no los dos?" but still!)

Honestly, they sort of do. I would definitely call any 60% with custom QMK firmware with function keys and layers a non-standard layout. For the alpha keys, the benefits to switching from QWERTY to say DVORAK or something are largely still theoretical. No one to my knowledge has proven definitively that it's actually superior. And it's a common myth that QWERTY was designed to slow typists down. It was designed to place the frequently used keys further apart from each other, which is not the same thing as trying to slow down typists. If that were the objective, you'd find yourself doing awkward pinkie reaches for 'T' and 'E' and the like.

But even if DVORAK was superior, mastering it comes at significant costs. Chiefly, switching to a custom layout with function keys and stuff doesn't reprogram most basic typing, so you can jump on someone else's conventional keyboard pretty easily. If you reprogram yourself to be a DVORAK master, you are looking at some serious potential hindrance in flexibility since we live in a qwerty world.

There's a lot of people in this hobby that use Dvorak, and the other obscure layout that I don't even remember the name of. Some even design and sell PCBs/entire kits for them. Most of the keyboards seem to use QMK, an open source, programmable firmware so you can do whatever you want.

There's a lot of debate on those layouts and their usefulness. There's people that swear it saved them from RSI and there's people that say nothing can be proven about the health benefits of any alternative layout. There are a lot of people that switched to an alternative for a few weeks, months, or even a year and then went back to qwerty. I've stuck with qwerty so I don't have a lot of knowledge on the subject.

COLEMAK? is that the "other obscure layout"?

That's one of them. Not sure how obscure it actually is. I'm not very knowledgable about alternative layouts, I just see the names come up frequently.

Great professionals (cooks, photographers) will definitely benefit from high-end tools because you get higher control (over craftsmanship), improved productivity etc.

For a keyboard, the signal delivered to the computer (the thing that really matters) is the same. It's the same freaking 'A' that gets delivered whether you type in a $1 keyboard or the $2000 keyboard. Most prolific writers or software programmers (for whom the keyboard really matters) produce amazing and impactful artifacts with regular keyboards.

I don't have crazy expensive keyboards, but I think your assessment is overly reductive. Good keyboards feel better (and are more comfortable for days on end) and reduce typos over bad ones.

It is the same signal, I'm not sure but potentially drivers, microcontrollers, and other things may impact latency though. Not that mechanical keyboard enthusiasts seem to be focused on that.

However, the type of switch you use can have an impact on all kinds of things, the speed at which you can type, the accuracy of your typing, your long term health, etc.

Certain types of switches are also better suited to specific activities. For example, linear switches can usually be pressed faster, which makes them very slightly better for gaming. There are even gaming oriented linear switches that have reduced key travel to further increase speed. The speed impact is going to be near non-noticeable in its impact on game performance for everyone but elite gamers, but anyone is going to be able to tell that certain switches fatigue their hands less than others.

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