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Comment by seizethecheese | Hacker News Reader

I sure hope this format doesn't take off.

Having worked as a dishwasher, line cook, pool manager, business analyst, software engineer, and startup founder, I have to say software engineer was, by far, the most coddled job.

How about this:

I'm a line cook, and I can't afford to be fired. I make minimum wage, and burn or cut myself badly at least once per week. I'm not allowed to take the day off and have to work through it. I work 8 hours nonstop above a very hot grill. I can't see any windows during my entire shift. Nobody respects me. My coworkers are alcoholics.

Edit: of course this doesn't mean software engineers shouldn't work to improve their well-being at work! Yeesh. Just adding some perspective. Earlier in life, I would have killed to have 95% of the work situations described below.

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Contrasting point - I dislike the thought that folks who've "got it good" should just stay quiet and never complain because they are much better off than others. To me, this is immoral and ineffective.

Everyone in a shitty position has a right to speak up. You're absolutely right that some people cannot exercise that right - they can't risk losing what they have. That is unfair to every single person in that situation (and personally, I find this to be a shameful reflection on the world).

But using that to justify that other workers should stay quiet is equally wrong. It's using something wrong happening to one group of people to justify something wrong happening to another group. Even if you don't believe the moral reasoning, there's the pragmatic angle - this attitude leads to overall worse employee treatment. If 'better off' workers are shamed into not discussing poor treatment (because they should be embarrassed complaining about such trivialities), then minor poor treatment is allowed to escalate unchecked.

In my opinion, a better approach overall is to think "all of us have some rights, including good treatment by an employer and a right to a life not straddled by anxiety or debt". Anyone crusading against that is on the same side.

I don't believe developers have no right to complain.

I only hope these types of threads don't become a habit. It promotes a mentality of negativity, in my opinion. It's not constructive for the industry, I don't think.

This is the first thread of this type I've seen on the front page. I don't see any reason it'll be a "habit".

Yes, software engineers are generally well-off, but that doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of people in our field who work in toxic environments, or have an over-demanding manager, or feel like they have no potential to grow in their current role, or have mental health issues that are exacerbated by stressful and isolating working conditons, to name a few possible issues. And I'm sure many of those people are hesitant to try to change this situation because they are well-compensated and work in a nice office building. So if a thread like this could nudge them to take that first step, then I'm all for it.

The number of upvotes and comments is an indicator that enough people feel or have felt this way for this thread to be worthwhile.

This type of thread helps us looking for pain points in the industry to be solved. The targeted market research is extremely valuable.

> Contrasting point - I dislike the thought that folks who've "got it good" should just stay quiet and never complain because they are much better off than others. To me, this is immoral and ineffective.

I like to say "Just because other people have it worse doesn't mean my problems aren't problems." I think the argument of "other people have it worse" is very dehumanizing. To live is to suffer, to survive is to find meaning in that suffering (to provide a cliche). Can we just accept that problems are problems and they should be solved, even if trivial? I'm all for finding logistically which ones should be tackled first, but I don't think that commonly applies here.

Agree with what you're saying but it's quite easy for this thread to become an unironic mirror of Silicon Valley. A bunch of folks complaining that the free food at work isn't vegan or that they aren't making humanity better with their CRUD app.

I don't see how a thread around that helps. We already know that more than most other professions, software engineers have options when moving jobs. If you want to be fired, let your boss know.

> or that they aren't making humanity better with their CRUD app.

Feeling like your work isn't positively impacting the world is a very common, completely valid complaint, and isn't specific to "Silicon Valley" at all.

What's your problem with people talking about whether their work feels worthwhile? Why is that any less important of a conversation to have than all the other chatter that goes on here?

It also says something very human. That people want to make the world a better place. I do not understand a complaint against those that are seeking work that is more meaningful and beneficial to humanity. Isn't that exactly the type of work that we (as ... humans...) should be encouraging?

> A bunch of folks complaining that the free food at work isn't vegan or that they aren't making humanity better with their CRUD app.

Is there any evidence that people are doing that in this thread?

At a big firm: Good luck getting in on the first round of volunteer layoffs. They always seem to deny developers.

At a startup: My options vest after 4 years. The company can remove my options if I quit or I have to buy these options now at crazy valuation and hope the company goes public quickly before the next round dilutes my shares further.

> _Everyone in a shitty position has a right to speak up._

Yep. But they _don't_ have the right to make anyone else care. Say whatever you want about your own problems, but if your situation is comparatively better, then don't expect people to give a damn. And complaining is not without risk. It's not uncommon to make your situation _even worse_ by speaking out when your problems are comparatively light.

Speaking up in a situation where those who take notice want to help you, that's real courage. Speaking up such that those who notice don't care, that's just whining. The only significant difference is how others interpret your situation, and the primary factor is how your problems compare to others.

And you're right, that's not fair. Sorry.

I agree with you that line cook is a very hard job and I have nothing but respect for all the workers out there facing daily harsh conditions.

Having said that, I also understand that mental problems caused by stress at work, the abuse and pressure some intellectual workers face is as real and dangerous, however is less visible.

That's why I think that people reading this should not underestimate those dangers and look for a change from those conditions regardless of whether they come from mental or physical sides of our jobs.

Honestly, I've done a lot of jobs, some manual, some not, went to university, all of it. Anything that pays well is easy compared to a job that pays shit. The possibility that a missed shift means missing rent and potentially being homeless is far more stressful than any amount of mental 'abuse' or physical strain.

I did not mean to compare different level of hardships people can face. What I mean is that when someone feels pain and suffering they should look for a change whenever it is possible, regardless of the outside perception of their position. Do you agree?

Sure, whenever possible. I don't agree with abusive workplaces. But from my personal perspective, there's a certain amount of shit I'm willing to take and it's based on how much I get paid.

If the pay's the same, I'll take a happier environment 10/10 times.

> Anything that pays well is easy compared to a job that pays shit.

There are always exceptions to this rule:

https://time.com/4487297/high-paying-jobs-personality/

Edit- consider newly graduated investment bankers, medical residents, junior lawyers. There are some very well paying professions that operate under extremely stressful situations.

I think there is room to recognize that line cooks don’t get treated as well as software engineers while also discussing unfair treatment of workers in any field. Abuse of software engineers is not unimportant simply because other workers have it worse. We as wage workers can work in solidarity with others to fight abusive labor conditions in all fields. Absolutely the service workers need representation and fair treatment and the situation for service workers is far more urgent, but that doesn’t mean we should not discuss the plight of software engineers as well. All workers should be free from exploitation.

Yes, good point. There should be room for any field to advocate for improving their collective well-being.

I still hope this type of thread doesn't catch on. The comments here skew negative and entitled, in my opinion.

There are certain anonymous communities and subreddits where IT workers come together to complain, attack, or boast in very toxic ways, and it is understandable to be concerned about a similar situation arising. That said, any industry, even the well-paying, can have room for awful, nonsensical, and oppressive working conditions. Why would you deprive people the chance to commiserate with each other? You don't know the extent of their suffering.

Look up the story of Aline Lerner. Consider that, whatever you think about your situation, she was probably thinking similar things, and despite that, she’s always been one of the most interesting people in her class at MIT, even when she was in your job, especially then. And look at you, first post in the most popular thread right now. You have physical hardships, no doubt, but there is an existential interest that you’ve piqued here. Well-paid software engineers may struggle with the banality of irrelevance, boredom and disconnection with their fellow man. I once met a girl on a plane that told me that the most important thing you can know about life is that nobody has it better than you. Nobody. Interestingly, whether it’s true or not, you have nothing to gain by believing otherwise.

I'm sure there are worse jobs than line cook.

If someone would provide a description of a worse job, would that invalidate your argument in the same way you tried to invalidate OPs argument?

Of course not. And there are better jobs than software engineer. However, I do believe it's possible to stack rank jobs, and Software Engineer must be in the top quintile in terms of quality of work-life.

Because it's a cozy job in the US? Software Engineers face horrible working conditions in a lot of parts of Asia, far worse than your line cook example.

Got evidence?

There's the whole 996 culture in China, for one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system

What argument was made?

You realize one of the most popular to level comments is about someone who is 18 amd working on modernizing an old DOS HIPAA app alone and not allowed to use version control and is being advised by people to quit ASAP because HIPAA laws mean they might be personally liable for some violations and face prison time?

Suddenly, your line cook job doesn't sound so bad. Maybe we should just accept that every job might have circumstances that make it a bad place to be, and judge on the details rather than the title.

I would much rather be cut and burned than personally liable in a suit that could ruin the rest of my life.

People at all ranges of life experience have authentic concerns.

Listening can be hard, because, yes, we might hear stories of things that seem, well, entitled. That’s ok. Perhaps people that take too much for granted can reassess by putting their stories out and getting feedback?

Yes, that would be constructive. My fear is that often, these threads devolve into devs enabling each other's entitlement rather than illuminating it.

Well put, and yes that is definitely a risk. As a software developer myself though, I find these stories to be a good learning opportunity.

Most of us are adults, I don't see how staking out moral tentposts adds anything to this discussion. I was enjoying the stories from the community.

Nobody should feel guilty for being unhappy in their job and wanting to talk about. Trying to make someone feel guilty about it is the same kind of thing an abusive employer does to abused workers.

Yes but that job is easy to execute, and there is no risk of falling behind and one day not knowing how to do the job because things evolved so quickly and you slacked off on weekends instead of trying to keep up. Additionally, it's not a job that in order to do better requires you to isolate yourself more and more. The better code you want to write, the more you need to practice, which may mean more hours alone. This pace kills your social life much quicker than many other lines of work, imho. Just saying it's really more subjective than anything else, not to mention all the other possible variables which combined make it hard to say whether any line of work is harder/easier than some other one.

I've worked minimum wage jobs like that. Yet it was at my last, professional job that overwork and pressure to travel in unsafe conditions led to me crashing my car into a tree and almost dying.

Get off your high horse.

Another problem - it is common for HN users (myself included) to have their account expressly linked to their own name. Obviously it would be disastrous if one's current employer found out about a rant like those in this thread.

Even if the user can't trivially be linked to their name, these stories can get so specific that if someone else from the company read it, they would know the writer.

I also wouldnt like to be fired again (me as a programmer); the prospect of doing job interviews again and again scares the shit out of me. I have this suspicion that the interview ritual was invented once upon a time, a long time ago by management as a means to cuddle the ego of a local alpha geek.

can you elaborate on the meaning behind your username?

I'm a third world sweathop worker. I was forced to make clothes here ever since I could walk. There are hundreds of people packed in to this tiny windowless room, and every time there is a fire I die. My coworkers can't even afford alcohol. Every time I hear decadent American line cooks complain about their working conditions, all I can think is, they have it so easy.

Get off the internet and back to work!

Yes, this illuminates the point even better. Software devs are among the best treated first world employees. In a global perspective, most (but not all) complaints are laughable.

Stop complaining, there are starving children in Africa!

I like your dark humour. Can you please give me reading material for the next year ? Ideally your most recommended books on _life_.

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