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bitL

A typical EU startup:

- hey, we are startup, we can't pay you much, is that OK?

- well, we can't really compensate you with stock options, those are for founders

- oh no, your opinion doesn't matter, bosses are always right

- yes, you'll work crazy hours but we can only pay you for 40

In other words, EU startups have no mechanism in place to reward early employees that build the company from the scratch, it's all about making co-founders famous/wealthy. It's already bad in the US, imagine EU is 10x worse.

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What? No! Where are you getting your information from?

Having worked with a multitude of startups over the years I can say that none of them have behaved in this way in the Nordics.

Did you get a competitive salary or ~1% of share of the company as an early employee? If not, you were used. The aforementioned is a typical Berlin startup. A favorite of mine is when a company tries to pay you with debt, i.e. instead of being just a developer, you become a banker for your future boss' idea. I wish I were joking...

Last time I was job hunting, one of the Berlin startups was offering €58k (iOS developer). Is that competitive? I find it hard to judge.

Depends your level, but if you have some experience, no it's not something I would consider competitive (talking about Berlin).

Last time is when? In 2019 the median seems to be 65k-70k, and 70k-75k is possible.

75k at a seed stage companies. Day rates are €1200 and total comp for real senior developers at established companies is €100k+

“Nobody in Berlin earns over €65k” should be a dead meme by now. Salaries are continuing to rise

Not hard at all, there is plenty of information about wages in IT. If you understand the root of the article, the US versus Europe comparison, take Silicon Valley numbers and compare to €58k and you will find it ridiculously low. Damn, you get more in Romania (Bucharest or Cluj), I am not kidding you.

> I can say that none of them have behaved in this way in the Nordics.

The Nordic countries, particularly Sweden and Denmark, are among the few that actually have a pretty healthy startup scene. Maybe there's a link?

The parent comment rings true (in essence, despite its touch of hyperbole) with respect to France.

What I see in Germany is that some of the startups are basically contracted by larger companies, tasked to develop complex solutions for a fraction of the price that an established company would require for the same task.

At least that's my experience so far.

I wouldn't really consider those startups since they're not trying to develop their own product for a market segment. Those are more like small development shops (there are a lot of those here in the US as well).

I have never met any company like this, startup or not. Are you stuck in some scam? There are so many companies offering amazing benefits in Europe's capitals that it's hard to pick one.

At least in Croatia, I would say people are still figuring out how to do the startup thing. Certain incentives and incubators have appeared in the past few years, the country has shown some interest with improving regulation and some people are trying it out. The biggest thing I would say is the culture where I would say people are very risk averse so they do not want to jump into debt for some crazy idea so they cannot afford paying people. Most startups I know in Croatia are started by friends where no one is getting payed and then later there's a squabble when it turns out the friend who started the company now owns it while the others are just employees. Other startups hire lots of college interns for 5€ net an hour and waste time with them learning how to code instead of paying actual professionals. I would say the scene is improving and each year there are 2x as many startups doing recruiting but it's all still in its infancy.

What you describe is not anything like a startup. Product quality and speed to market are very important, you cannot get these with students learning to code.

Depends. If there's nothing better in Croatia, you might still be the fastest to market in Croatia.

I see a lot of these hot deals in the US also. They eventually find someone. Likely not the most qualified someone.

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