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Comment by loceng | Hacker News Reader

It's not unreasonable to assume someone will have a line of sight for where a vehicle is being summoned from, just like when in the vehicle itself and you drive forward you're paying attention to its surroundings as well.

I have seen some videos released with summons that just a quick horn honk would have likely prevented another driver backing up their vehicle from bumping into, with enough force to do some front bumper damage, a Tesla being summoned in a parking lot; it moves slowly too, and that could also be a factor in surrounding drivers not gauging or having the same kinds of reactions.

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I can have line of sight of my vehicle, but in a parking lot, there may be a small child, obscured by other vehicles, in the path of motion of my car.

What do you think is going to happen, when a Tesla runs one over?

Hint: They are going to blame the driver for using this feature in a parking lot. Their fanboys will defend the hell out of that statement. They will be oddly silent on the subject of 'If you're not going to use this feature in a parking lot, where the hell are you supposed to use it?'

A 'self-driving' car that is incapable of collision avoidance is not yet ready for the market.

Ever walk up to your car in the parking lot then realize... that's not your car? Now identify your car from across the parking lot. In California, where every other car is a ticky tacky Tesla (and they all look just the same). There are already anecdotes of people wondering why their car isn't summoning only to realize ... that's not their car.

> In California, where every other car is a ticky tacky Tesla

I live in California, and if I see five Teslas in a day it's an unusual cluster.

Now, Silicon Valley probably has a greater proportion of Teslas, but Silicon Valley isn't typical of the state.

I’m in Orange County and I usually see 8-12 on a short drive. Easily 30-40 across a normal day with a 15 minute commute.

Live in SV and my commute i see average of 30 M3s, about 10 S and 5 X mostly on 101. Also i see about 5 delivery truck packing about 5 cars each every day. Thats a lot of cars.

Really? Even just during my 10 minute walk to work in Minneapolis, MN I'll probably see five every day.

Why do people say that highly populous areas are “not typical”?

Median household income in San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont metro area is over $100K, for the state as a whole it's about $70K.

That's one reason the former isn't typical of the latter.

Fair point - so certain scenarios likely would benefit from visual and perhaps audio signals, lights flashing - certain lighter horn noise. Perhaps even listening to audio for someone nearby to be able to say "stop" and the vehicle would stop - or respond similarly to other horn noises.

New electric cars have a low speed noise maker in the US (required by law after sometime this year), but most Teslas on the road now were built before this was a requirement.

I think that's one of the stupidest additives of constant noise pollution - noise pollution being one reason people zone out and stop paying attention to their environment, rather than people being aware that they're about to step onto a road.

Not everyone can see.

And those people are going to be much less likely to randomly, unexpectedly walk out in front of traffic where it's not a designated crosswalk. I bet their hearing is refined, heightened, to more easily notice quieter electric vehicles as well.

As someone who grew up before smartphones, with plenty of noise pollution, I am sure it's not the noise. People cross the street stairing at their hands.

I think the requirement isn’t in effect until 2020:

https://www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2019/7/1/20676854/elec...

>It's not unreasonable to assume someone will have a line of sight for where a vehicle is being summoned from

And do what? Magically jump in the car and take over the breaks when a kid suddenly appears on a bicycle going towards the car?

Or are they only supposed to summon the car in the Mojave, where there's fully open line of sight and few passers-by?

No, they can stop the car pretty much instantly. No magic required.

And for the case you mention, a kid on a bicycle, the car will stop itself if needed for safety.

The car should stop itself for safety, but may not have the awareness to do this successfully. Bicyclists are explicitly listed in the warning about paying attention to the surroundings of your car while it is being summoned.

Paying attention to surroundings is good.

But magic _is_ required. A reasonable field of view to assess the hazard or approaching kid on the bike might, quite easily, be available from the car, but not 20m away looking toward the car.

Case in point. That car in the video that turns into the car park looks like comes from behind the guy with the phone. Someone in the car, or the self driving sw, should have seen it far earlier. Maybe even noticed an indicator, or deceleration.

And that scenario of a kid on a bicycle not being seen until they're almost in front of you exists while a driver in the vehicle too: collision detection will certainly be able to have a faster reaction than a human driver as well.

Fortunately the cars do have cameras facing in every direction. Clearly not sufficient to stop every fender bender but you could say the same about human drivers.

>And for the case you mention, a kid on a bicycle, the car will stop itself if needed for safety

That's what it's reported as NOT doing, tho (and also what Tesla asks you to keep an eye on yourself while summoning, in their small print)

> That's what it's reported as NOT doing, tho

False. Nowhere is that reported.

Yes Tesla advises you to be careful.

Is there video of such an incident - did you see a video of such an incident? Not saying it's not possible, however we have to keep in mind what's "reported" as clickbait "journalism" vs. reality.

It wasn’t even reported... he/she’s just making stuff up.

First of all, that's an ad-hominem (and rude).

The title of TFA is about how "People Are Already Reporting Collisions With Tesla’s Driverless Smart Summon Feature".

So clearly it's not the case that "the car will stop itself if needed for safety"...

Your point is that if it was for a kid on a bicycle it would, but for the reported situations (not being kids on bicycles) it doesn't?

Because the more obvious conclusion is that it doesn't work properly period, and that can bite people, where the case involves an incoming bicycle or not. Especially since we have reported cases of Teslas hitting bicyclists in the non-summon mode:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3m1U2KiGgI

I think the summon feature requires user to keep pressing a button on the phone to work. Lifting finger from the button will stop the car I believe.

I’m saying it by watching the videos. Someone knowledgeable do correct if I’m wrong.

You are correct.

So instead of a foot on a pedal connected mostly directly to the brakes, it is a finger on the button of a phone app over the internet? That is madness, imagine if your car's brake pedal had to go over the public internet and instead of a pedal is was a button in a probably poorly coded phone app.

This is a false problem, the engineer have coded the button the other way: Only moves if you receive a signal from the app. If you lose this information in less than 50ms, just stop the vehicle.

It's not a solvable problem in this context. Humans are not computers, and cars have no self. The car would melt a hole in the ground and not even approach par with a cat. It's understandable that people are making this mistake in the context of lifetimes of sci-fi anthropomorphizing machines.

> So instead of a foot on a pedal connected mostly directly to the brakes, it is a finger on the button of a phone app over the internet? That is madness, imagine if your car's brake pedal had to go over the public internet and instead of a pedal is was a button in a probably poorly coded phone app.

it's a deadman's switch not a brake pedal. if you lose connection it stops the car. if you lift your finger it stops the car. if the car senses an object it should stop the car (but might not because it's not 100% yet)

What’s the latency tolerance for this? I have to imagine that, given mobile internet conditions, it’s in the range of seconds. It also raises the question - is it really a dead-man’s switch, or more like a heartbeat being sent every N milliseconds? How many heartbeat signals can be lost?

It’s not as simple as a deadman’s switch; it can’t be if it’s using a mobile phone and the internet.

That doesn't stop Tesla from driving into live traffic and stopping there. Look at the videos.

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