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Comment by mentos | Hacker News Reader

“They have not removed it, it just is not visible by default if you are connected to the internet. Either run the setup without being connected to the internet, or type in a fake phone number a few times and it will give you the prompt to create a local account.”

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That's a pretty clear dark pattern, no?

At the very least, it signals that Microsoft really doesn't want users creating offline accounts. Which is troubling, because their TOS for online accounts is quite onerous, and includes a couple of problematic restrictions, including a mandatory arbitration agreement.

If I was a Windows user who relied on local accounts this would be very worrying to me.

It's most definitely a dark pattern.

Just how reddit now prompts you to enter an email when you register but it's not marked as required and it doesn't say optional either.

To be fair, it’s really unusual that they even let you get an account without an email — I believe they’re still one of the only major sites left that allow this at all.

Not unusual when you consider this fact: when reddit was originally founded back in '05, the ability to create an anonymous account with a pseudonym in seconds was the goal. The redesign is a shame, but I'm glad they chose to stick with their old UI via a decicated URL (old.reddit.com).

Well, yeah, another thing ruined by spammers

(And the redesign is truly a shame)

Let's start calling this what it really is.

Evil pattern.

It's only a dark pattern until online accounts are always required... (then it's for forever).

You always install windows without a network connection so that you can run group policy editor to install your policies before first network connection. This has been best practice forever.

>Either run the setup without being connected to the internet, or type in a fake phone number a few times and it will give you the prompt to create a local account.”

This is something I really can't see the average user doing honestly.

I've been installing Windows 10 w/o an active network connection since its release. Sounds like that'll become a more common thing for others.

Maybe you do the same thing as me: only connect the internet once everything is done and all bloat has been removed

I guess they want to emulate Google chromeOS and Google is busy emulating MS of the 2000s. Shame.

Or you know, iCloud? The thing that most people here probably have.

What's the similarity to iCloud?

Except Apple have a lovely ‘Skip’ button at every step of the process.

If you don’t want to use iCloud you’re not forced to by virtue of being internet connected, and there’s a clear option to not allow your iCloud account to be involved in auth or password resets.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it's even possible to merge your iCloud account (Apple ID) with your Mac user account. Aren't these always separate identities?

I thought what Microsoft is pushing people to do is to use a single identity for both their PC and their Microsoft account, just like Google does with Chrome Books.

My concern with the single identity model is not just privacy. I worry that if something happens to my online account I might lose access to my local data.

At least on Chrome Books this is something that can happen. Not sure about Microsoft's approach though.

> but I don't think it's even possible to merge your iCloud account (Apple ID) with your Mac user account. Aren't these always separate identities

And enforced as such - just like you cannot have your macOS password be the same as your Apple ID password.

> just like you cannot have your macOS password be the same as your Apple ID password.

Huh, yes you can? http://osxdaily.com/2015/03/24/use-icloud-password-as-mac-lo...

That's not exactly discoverable. Try a clean install of a Mac without having previously enabled this feature. You are prompted for your Apple ID and password, then to make a Mac account. If you use the same password for both, the OS won't let you.

I didn't know you could later enable it.

> That's not exactly discoverable

Sure it's not. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist/is not possible :)

And you can get an offline account with Windows if you're offline. Granted it's not transparent enough.

Thing is, what Apple is trying to achieve with iCloud is exactly the same as what MS is trying to achieve: bind you to a single account which will allow them to transition to a more service based business model. It's just Apple does it smoother.

I imagine another good path is to state it's owned by an organization, then clicking "Domain join instead". I can't imagine they removed that, but it just dumps out to a local account because you can't domain join in the OOBE.

I use that at work, so I didn't realize the current situation, but I don't think that's an option in the home version.

Oh, that's true, you wouldn't see that option for Home edition at all. :/ I almost never use Home edition, I always buy Pro, even for personal use.

I can confirm that's the case, just did this last week.

I wouldn't be surprised if this backfired on YouTube massively.

Utterly useless dark pattern, and many thanks for sharing.

I think it's been that way for a while? Maybe six months ago I wanted to add Windows to a Linux box I had, and I ran into this

No, last time I was installing Win10 was 23/09/2019 and there was an option to use offline account.

Although, some system settings already require ms account.

I noticed this change months ago. Probably with the release of 1903 (with a 1903 ISO). It seems to be dependent on whether you have an active connection or not. If not, it shows the offline option. If you do, it makes it really hard to find.

In my case notebook was connected to the Internet.

I don't know what to say. I've seen this across dozens of computers since 1903. Were you installing 1903?

Did you download/create install media at that time? Fwiw I've done a handful of (re) installs of W10 pro at work (over the past year or so) , and the installer experience along with enrollment in azure ad has been different every time...

It's been obscured though, IIRC, isn't there small text on a same colour (darker shade) background outside the edge of a box. I've only done a handful of Win 10 installs, I just remember being confused "how do you do it without an account again", it has not been clear.

I definitely had to Google how as I missed this text in my latest install

That's the same behaviour which has been the case for some time, right? Not that I'm particularly happy about it or anything.

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